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Following the toothbrush rabbit hole, I came upon this: https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1491487441605128197
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Feb 10, 2022 15:20
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Kyte posted:Following the toothbrush rabbit hole, I came upon this: I wonder whether this could be a potential backdoor for malicious code injection elsewhere in the vehicle.
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Feb 10, 2022 15:39
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There Bias Two posted:I wonder whether this could be a potential backdoor for malicious code injection elsewhere in the vehicle. If its on the CAN Bus like most radios in modern cars? Yes. Very easily. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRn_Rz2JIYQ
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Feb 10, 2022 15:55
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Yeah, but is it connected to wifi with an app that reminds you to brush your teeth and also lets you know when the water temperature in your sink is optimal? Or at least a timer that tells you that you've brushed for the appropriate amount of time? Actually, that second one isn't a bad idea, especially for young kids.
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Feb 10, 2022 15:57
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BiggerBoat posted:Or at least a timer that tells you that you've brushed for the appropriate amount of time?
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Feb 10, 2022 17:11
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BiggerBoat posted:Yeah, but is it connected to wifi with an app that reminds you to brush your teeth and also lets you know when the water temperature in your sink is optimal? Or at least a timer that tells you that you've brushed for the appropriate amount of time? Just from looking up "phillips electric toothbrush,"  .This kind of overkill seems to be really common, and I'd really like to pick the brain of an electrical engineer to find out why. I know next to nothing about the process of designing hardware, but my completely uneducated guess is that it's not worth the slightly cheaper BOM to design a board that does exactly what you need. e: The OP of the tweet said that it does, in fact, have bluetooth and an app. So I guess the answer is the same "can't capture your data with logic chips, now can we?" as everything else. Baronash fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 17:21
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Shrecknet posted:I had a Captain America toothbrush in 1985 that already did this with the press of a button, there is no need to have a computer as powerful as the one I had in my living room in 1995 inside of a toothbrush. Oh I totally agree. I just meant that little timer on a kid's toothbrush might actually be helpful. You could just as easily put a kitchen or sand timer in the bathroom but a little "Spiderman says it's time to fight....CAVITIES!" and then "Cavities are defeated, all thanks to your friendly neighborhood Spiderman!" and it plays music or web shooting sounds while the kid brushes could be novel. But you said, yeah, it already exists and is obviously simple to manufacture. But what we really need is a toothbrush with an internet connection and a high end graphics card that costs $150.
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Feb 10, 2022 17:24
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Baronash posted:Just from looking up "phillips electric toothbrush," it doesn't seem to have an app or wifi/bluetooth, but it does have a pressure sensor and a timer. Folks in the twitter comments say they see an antenna in that picture though, so This plus economy of scale. If you aren't one of the heavy hitters you buy whatever's cheapest that will do the job, because the alternatives involve fabricating your own boards. You have to spread that cost across a looooot of units to get a sane final price point.
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Feb 10, 2022 17:27
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BiggerBoat posted:But what we really need is a toothbrush with an internet connection and a high end graphics card that costs $150. I will do a lot of things for an affordable graphics card, but maintaining good oral hygiene is not one of them.
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Feb 10, 2022 17:33
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You could probably brush your teeth even without the GPU and IOT, but then it wouldn't reward you for dental hygiene by mining you bitcoins as you do it.
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Feb 10, 2022 17:41
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Blue Footed Booby posted:This plus economy of scale. If you aren't one of the heavy hitters you buy whatever's cheapest that will do the job, because the alternatives involve fabricating your own boards. You have to spread that cost across a looooot of units to get a sane final price point. For something like this, where there are significant space constraints, is that still something you just find off the shelf? Do I flip through a catalog and find ARM Cortex M0 Chipset +Speaker +Bluetooth and choose whether I want the 15mm, 20mm, or 30mm wide board?
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Feb 10, 2022 17:44
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Baronash posted:For something like this, where there are significant space constraints, is that still something you just find off the shelf? Do I flip through a catalog and find ARM Cortex M0 Chipset +Speaker +Bluetooth and choose whether I want the 15mm, 20mm, or 30mm wide board? As far as I know, yes. It might affect how you design the toothbrush but I literally have a single board computer in my desk drawer that would fit in a toothbrush.
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Feb 10, 2022 17:52
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Baronash posted:This kind of overkill seems to be really common, and I'd really like to pick the brain of an electrical engineer to find out why. I know next to nothing about the process of designing hardware, but my completely uneducated guess is that it's not worth the slightly cheaper BOM to design a board that does exactly what you need. Oh hey, I have gotten a ton of PCBs manufactured as a hobbyist and I would say there is a super huge U shaped curve for picking a microcontroller. If you pick something lovely it just works. If you put the worst cheapest ATmega clone on a board and use 3v where it says 5v and skip all the capacitors, and leave pins floating it'll be junk but it'll turn on just fine. You can just hold the chip in your hand and touch wires to it and one resistor and you can make it do things. It might not last and it might be totally hosed with interference but it's fine, it'll work some. The same is true of high end system on a chip type microcontrollers. stick an esp32 on a board or some big arm chip and that's it. you got it all. You have a couple required connections but nothing complicated. You just slap it on and your done with that part. Anything in the middle you have to actually know things. It's never really actually more than "follow the diagram in the documentation" but compared to low or high end microcontrollers it's too much work. setting up a clock? ugg, I'm gonna do it wrong, I'll just spend a dollar more for something with that built in. Am I pulling this pin high or low? ugg, I am going to have to order a whole new batch if I get it backwards. Like I imagine you get someone at my skill level in this to design something like a toothbrush, it'd be cheaper to actually design it right, but god it's so easy to just plug in a good chip that handles everything and not have to understand or think about anything complicated.And it's literally only like a 2 dollar chip (having the programming header be extremely huge and super labeled is also like "I don't really know microcontroller design well but I can put something simple together") Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 19:32
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Tweet is vastly overselling how complicated that is. It's a $4 mid-low end chip. You could maybe squeeze it down to a $2 chip, but you're probably not going to sell enough toothbrushes of that model to be worth the engineering time and dealing with having less part commonality across your product line. Even on a non-fancy electric toothbrush, you have a processor because you still have a timer, some lights, a battery, and maybe a pressure sensor. A microprocessor is a cheap and easy way to deal with that. You don't go with the absolute smallest cheapest thing because programmer time and hardware iterations to get there will cost more than part cost savings x number of toothbrushes. e: the debug pads are big because there's board space to spare + more pads & silkscreen don't cost anything, so you might as well make it easier for your programmer to use the thing when its sitting on their desk during development Foxfire_ fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Feb 10, 2022 |
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Feb 10, 2022 20:05
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Yeah there has been a standardization around SoC chips like this, you are likely to find some flavor like this in almost any semi-capable device now.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:06
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Foxfire_ posted:Tweet is vastly overselling how complicated that is. It's a $4 mid-low end chip. You could maybe squeeze it down to a $2 chip, but you're probably not going to sell enough toothbrushes of that model to be worth the engineering time and dealing with having less part commonality across your product line. I don't know what non cheap toothbrush you're using, but a cheap electric toothbrush's electric components are batteries, a toggle switch, and a motor.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:32
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Foxfire_ posted:e: the debug pads are big because there's board space to spare + more pads & silkscreen don't cost anything, so you might as well make it easier for your programmer to use the thing when its sitting on their desk during development It's less that it's big and more that it's homemade. It's sort of kind of a JTAG/SWD interface but like, one a guy made. Like again, it's the level like where I design things, where it's going to be me touching wires trailing into an arduino to program so it just matters I know how they go, instead of using the right thing of a little pogo pin probe that actually touches them in a standard way and could be done on a machine. Like it's a very "I know the basics of putting a microcontroller on something" in a bunch of ways, which seems totally fine, it seems just having jim "oh I took one college class on this" design it seems pretty okay for something so simple, even if it's easy to pick apart as bad standards.
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Feb 10, 2022 20:41
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I don't understand what you mean by 'homemade'. It's a board designed by professional toothbrush engineers. They ran the programming/debug pins and a serial port out to some nice big pads (pads are free, connectors cost money) that will be easy to tack wires onto for development and easy to hit with a pogo pin fixture for programming during manufacturing. The exact layout of the pads isn't that important, you're going to be designing a fixture to locate the board vs the pogo pins anywayVolmarias posted:I don't know what non cheap toothbrush you're using, but a cheap electric toothbrush's electric components are batteries, a toggle switch, and a motor.
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Feb 10, 2022 21:51
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Foxfire_ posted:TIL that people also sell semi-disposable $5 electric toothbrushes that run off of AAs. The cheapest I've ever seen before are the $30 ones with rechargeable batteries and replaceable heads. I don't recommend buying the ones that take batteries, because in my experience you end up using your toothbrush on low power for much of the time and not effectively brushing your teeth. Once I switched to one with a stand charger, I noticed a clear difference in how clean my teeth looked.
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Feb 10, 2022 22:11
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Foxfire_ posted:I don't understand what you mean by 'homemade'. It's a board designed by professional toothbrush engineers. They ran the programming/debug pins and a serial port out to some nice big pads (pads are free, connectors cost money) that will be easy to tack wires onto for development and easy to hit with a pogo pin fixture for programming during manufacturing. The exact layout of the pads isn't that important, you're going to be designing a fixture to locate the board vs the pogo pins anyway I’m saying it looks like the way I design things. Because I am very amateur and do things around what is simplest for me. (I bet the power management also accepts a comically huge range of input voltages, that is another “I’m doing this the easiest way design quirk) It looks like they probably got a beginner to make that and don’t optimize but it’s fine because the parts are really very cheap these days. Maybe someday they will redesign in less a prototype type way but why bother really?
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Feb 10, 2022 22:28
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Brush your teeth and mine for ether (for us, not for you) at the same time!
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Feb 10, 2022 22:33
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There Bias Two posted:I don't recommend buying the ones that take batteries, because in my experience you end up using your toothbrush on low power for much of the time and not effectively brushing your teeth. Once I switched to one with a stand charger, I noticed a clear difference in how clean my teeth looked. Yeah same. A standard $45 electric toothbrush is 100% worth the money, and it's going to have a timer, a pressure sensor, and probably an RFID reader. And all of those are absolutely worthwhile, because plenty of Americans don't brush their teeth for long enough, struggle with overbrushing, or don't replace their old brush heads, and shell out a lot more at the dentist.
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Feb 10, 2022 23:13
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i just have the toothbrush the wirecutter's recommended for like 3 years. i'm pretty sure it does not have an rfid reader. what's the point of that?
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Feb 10, 2022 23:38
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abelwingnut posted:i just have the toothbrush the wirecutter's recommended for like 3 years. i'm pretty sure it does not have an rfid reader. what's the point of that? Telling you when to replace the
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Feb 10, 2022 23:41
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Cost reduction on electronics has really reduced from where it was even 15 years ago. It used to be that we would try to remove almost everything that was unnecessary between proto and pilot but now its gotten to the point where we will remove the headers but leave the test points in. I've had it happen where I have an RMA I need to dig into and figure out what's going on. I can solder wires on a test point but I cant do it to surface mount components. If it means that I can save a few hours trying to get a technicial to help me rather then do it myself then the couple of cents it saves to leave some of the debug stuff on makes perfect sense. Its the same reason why they use a modern microcontroller. Modern arm microcontrollers come with awesome development tools and a 96 mhz 32 bit arm costs a bit over a buck each. I might be able to save 50 cents if I go with a pic or avr but why bother.
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Feb 10, 2022 23:52
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Y'all don't have nanites which automatically clean your teeth?
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Feb 10, 2022 23:56
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"Professional Toothbrush Engineers" got a chuckle out of me.
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Feb 11, 2022 00:13
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I’m saying it looks like the way I design things. quarantinethepast posted:Y'all don't have nanites which automatically clean your teeth?
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Feb 11, 2022 00:40
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poo poo is going down in a hearing against Facebook re: Cambridge Analytica and the judge is VERY cross at Facebook: https://twitter.com/jason_kint/status/1491933693346299913?s=20&t=ZO3kYY3dRMxRh7hFWOGTeQ https://twitter.com/jason_kint/status/1491954591650439174?s=20&t=ZO3kYY3dRMxRh7hFWOGTeQ
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Feb 11, 2022 03:56
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Also I think I saw in pyf's IoSM thread, Zuck did the dumb thing of telling the EU "okay well what if we take our ball and left?" and some notable people in the EU said. "do it bitch."
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Feb 11, 2022 04:35
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PhazonLink posted:Also I think I saw in pyf's IoSM thread, Zuck did the dumb thing of telling the EU "okay well what if we take our ball and left?" Some notable people and most of the population. Seemed like the vast majority of the news surrounding it was basically "Do you promise? You better loving go"
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Feb 11, 2022 04:42
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Courts are attacking Facebook. Quick computer set manslaughter threshold to 20
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Feb 11, 2022 04:48
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PhazonLink posted:Also I think I saw in pyf's IoSM thread, Zuck did the dumb thing of telling the EU "okay well what if we take our ball and left?" It's only the most obvious bluff in the world. Europe does not give a gently caress about American tech companies' feelings and tech companies haven't really learned this yet.
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Feb 11, 2022 04:54
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Kyte posted:Following the toothbrush rabbit hole, I came upon this: Analog radio forever.
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Feb 11, 2022 07:23
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Foxfire_ posted:There's nothing that looks particularly amateurish to me in those pictures, so if you're designing things like that, qualified good job! (lots of stuff not visible though, big amounts of professional vs hobby PCBA design is things to pass EMI. The other big hobbyist smoking gun is through hole parts (easy hand assembly, expensive automated assembly) instead of surface mount (reverse)) You know a board is pro if it has 35 resistors of the same value, and one of them is the cheapest through hole instead of smd. Halp I goofed my traces and can't be arsed to redesign before the thing goes into production.
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Feb 11, 2022 10:08
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Kyte posted:Following the toothbrush rabbit hole, I came upon this: Why is it always Mazda? https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-roman-mars-mazda-virus/ BiggerBoat posted:Or at least a timer that tells you that you've brushed for the appropriate amount of time? Don’t all electric toothbrushes use a pulse in the brush rotation as a timer already? Even the cheap Aldi one I had did this. Why is an app necessary?
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Feb 11, 2022 10:52
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upsidedown posted:Don’t all electric toothbrushes use a pulse in the brush rotation as a timer already? Even the cheap Aldi one I had did this. Why is an app necessary? "Smart Toothbrushes" use the app to display metrics to users, set up reminders, and advertise their replacement brush heads. Their most useful function is that they can track what parts of your mouth are getting missed on average. But Wirecutter argues that they aren't worth the money, and I think they're right about that. Modern electric toothbrushes have a lot of useful capability built into them already without needing to connect to your internet. https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/smart-toothbrushes-dont-recommend/
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Feb 11, 2022 12:18
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Kaal posted:"Smart Toothbrushes" use the app to display metrics to users, set up reminders, and advertise their replacement brush heads. Their most useful function is that they can track what parts of your mouth are getting missed on average. But Wirecutter argues that they aren't worth the money, and I think they're right about that. Modern electric toothbrushes have a lot of useful capability built into them already without needing to connect to your internet. 
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Feb 11, 2022 12:37
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upsidedown posted:
They have a deal with Big Battery™ to make you replace them more often by having the toothbrush wasting energy broadcasting Bluetooth whenever you use it/turn it on...  Crest or whomever gives a report of how many batteries get replaced and Panasonic/etc. gives them a kickback.
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Feb 11, 2022 12:38
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CommieGIR posted:poo poo is going down in a hearing against Facebook re: Cambridge Analytica and the judge is VERY cross at Facebook: As enjoyable as it is to see a judge actually be an rear end in a top hat to a corporate defender for once. It is worth pointing out that Zuck has likely already pivoted financially and corporate-governance-ly to Meta and is happy to let the justice department take a flamethrower to FB as a smokescreen.
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Feb 11, 2022 12:47
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