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yeah my question is more like, at the height of fragmentation, how unified would it look if you only drew borders for polities that owed fealty directly to the king
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Jan 12, 2022 08:55
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This is just the wine appellations isn't it?  e: the density differences are fascinating, they stand out even more when timg'd.
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Jan 12, 2022 09:14
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oh was that a joke and I just completely missed it lol I assumed it was the finest scale divisions of feudal france
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Jan 12, 2022 09:15
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cheetah7071 posted:oh was that a joke and I just completely missed it lol Pretty sure it's a modern map of communes.
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Jan 12, 2022 09:16
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It is, yeah.
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Jan 12, 2022 11:00
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cheetah7071 posted:yeah my question is more like, at the height of fragmentation, how unified would it look if you only drew borders for polities that owed fealty directly to the king Actually, in practice were under the king's control, or 'owed fealty' to the king as long as he didn't ask them to do anything ever?
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Jan 12, 2022 11:02
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"under the King's control" is a weird concept to use with vassals as a good portion of the purpose is that the liege does not exercise direct power. the original question is really only interpretable (or makes sense at all) in a de jure sense since the actual practical amount of influence and authority of the liege is extremely variable down to the individual personalities, local economic situation, etc.
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Jan 12, 2022 14:08
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There's a lot of literature about development of royal authority in France viz the HRE (or England) and I've read a lot of it but don't remember enough to make a coherent post
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Jan 12, 2022 14:37
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Lady Radia posted:i'm going to start using "byzantine" exclusively over "east roman" or "roman", and "roman" over "holy roman" as well, into the 18th century. this is my stand. The Holy Roman Empire is the Northern Roman Empire. The Roman Empire is the Southern Roman Empire 
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Jan 12, 2022 14:48
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From what I remember the big problem with France was that it wasn't so much fractal or small or subdivided but poo poo was overlapped between different regional, aristocratic, and ecclesiastical authorities all of which had different rights and privileges and produced a kalleidoscope of gently caress. You might have three villages within a 10 mile radius with entirely different legal structures because one is in a different bishopric from the other two and then the third gave a cart load of mutton to a minor manorial lord 300 years earlier and was granted a qualified exemption from corvee labour and when the current Marquis inherited the lands 200 years ago that right came along with it.
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Jan 12, 2022 17:05
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Ola posted:Pretty sure it's a modern map of communes. Also, every single political border in France was redrawn at the start of the Revolution in 1789-90, because those initial delegates wanted to obliterate all the old feudal structures. They intentionally drew the lines to split up every single old political or ethnic or geographic grouping, to make a more uniform and homogenous map. I haven't really looked into it, but I bet this also marked the start of the imposition of one true France, including language and culture, on every citizen nationwide. CommonShore posted:From what I remember the big problem with France was that it wasn't so much fractal or small or subdivided but poo poo was overlapped between different regional, aristocratic, and ecclesiastical authorities all of which had different rights and privileges and produced a kalleidoscope of gently caress. You might have three villages within a 10 mile radius with entirely different legal structures because one is in a different bishopric from the other two and then the third gave a cart load of mutton to a minor manorial lord 300 years earlier and was granted a qualified exemption from corvee labour and when the current Marquis inherited the lands 200 years ago that right came along with it. This was also part of it.
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Jan 12, 2022 19:55
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Fuschia tude posted:Also, every single political border in France was redrawn at the start of the Revolution in 1789-90, because those initial delegates wanted to obliterate all the old feudal structures. They intentionally drew the lines to split up every single old political or ethnic or geographic grouping, to make a more uniform and homogenous map. I haven't really looked into it, but I bet this also marked the start of the imposition of one true France, including language and culture, on every citizen nationwide. After drowning a bunch of them that didn’t agree.
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Jan 12, 2022 20:06
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The slogans were pretty clear, yes. Liberty, equality, fraternity, unity, and indivisibility of the republic - or death.
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Jan 13, 2022 00:28
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CommonShore posted:From what I remember the big problem with France was that it wasn't so much fractal or small or subdivided but poo poo was overlapped between different regional, aristocratic, and ecclesiastical authorities all of which had different rights and privileges and produced a kalleidoscope of gently caress. You might have three villages within a 10 mile radius with entirely different legal structures because one is in a different bishopric from the other two and then the third gave a cart load of mutton to a minor manorial lord 300 years earlier and was granted a qualified exemption from corvee labour and when the current Marquis inherited the lands 200 years ago that right came along with it. This is everywhere not just France. There's a reason there's a bunch of villages called 'Bishop's <x>' and 'King's <x>' in England and it's down to who had authority over that specific village - and this is in a relatively centralised state as mediaeval ones go. The HRE gets even more spicy.
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Jan 13, 2022 11:42
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Every place decently big and populated was a huge clusterfuck of conflicting jurisdictions and overlapping fiefdoms and baronies and duchies so on and so forth with a sometimes only nominal allegiance to the king/emperor. But the HRE gets points for not only being the clusterfuckiest but also keeping it going long after most of their neighbors had moved on to a more centralized state or even absolute monarchy.
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Jan 13, 2022 12:36
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Wasn’t one of the big aims of the French Revolution to unfuck (liberalize) these patchwork quilts
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Jan 13, 2022 12:52
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euphronius posted:Wasn’t one of the big aims of the French Revolution to unfuck (liberalize) these patchwork quilts Take from the rich! Give to the poor! A few of the poor at least! Woops, those few are rich now! In fact, so rich they can raise armies against me...hmmm. Ok rich guys, if you accept me as emperor I will protect your wealth and we can go take some other people's poo poo. Deal? Nice! Good to be rid of that old unfair regime!
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Jan 13, 2022 13:36
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Just stumbled on a way of classifying periods that I've never seen before, curious about what people think:Eugene Y Park in Korea: A History posted:...the chapters are grouped according to a four-part periodization that puts Korean history in a global context: classical (ancient, antiquity), post-classical (medieval), early mdoern, and "late" modern periods. This scheme reflects the fact that in sedentary, literate societies of Afro-Eurasia, where writing systems historically facilitated political legitimation and identity formation, the beginnings of continuous, reliable patrilineal genealogies of the aristocracy, the middle class, and the rest of the population (as of 1900) mark the beginnings of the post-classical, the early modern, and the late modern eras, respectively.
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Jan 13, 2022 17:26
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There was a certain amount of putting in order the multiple conflicting ways that the country was organized (that England in some ways never really got around to), but the biggest wealth redistribution was the government taking the lands of the church and people who fled the country and selling it to pay for all the poo poo they were doing. I guess the biggest thing that separated France and Germany was that France managed to centralize itself around a more powerful single monarch and one big city where the Revolution could play out, while the HRE in Germany was constructed in a way where some big vassals would always have a sizable amount of power independent of the monarch, and they even got involved in their own foreign policies, and the fact that those big vassals were pseudo-independent meant that all the little tiny vassals that are in theory on the same administrative level have to be drawn separately on their maps. And then they weren't centralized enough for the revolutions of 1848 to play out like the French revolution, and when nationalists were trying to recreate Germany into a modern state, they either ended up with more people more different than France did, or its separate ethnic groups hadn't been as effectively sidelined and subordinated.
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Jan 13, 2022 17:33
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Zopotantor posted:After drowning a bunch of them that didn’t agree. mossyfisk posted:The slogans were pretty clear, yes. Liberty, equality, fraternity, unity, and indivisibility of the republic - or death. I mean, sure, but that started like four years later. 
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Jan 13, 2022 17:44
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Koramei posted:Just stumbled on a way of classifying periods that I've never seen before, curious about what people think: another quote from that book that's a pretty nice summary of the cause of the notoriously bonkers Korean history stuff: quote:Since the 1980s in South Korea, some populist writers outside the academy have produced chaeya ("outsider") historiography. They propagated the earlier nationalist interpretation of Dangun [mythical Korean progenitor, think Abraham etc], redefining him as the Korean people's historical ancestor and the founder of Korea's first state rather than just a mythical figure. In doing so, the chaeya accused academic historians not only of denying Dangun's alleged historicity but, more fundamentally, of perpetuating Japanese colonial historiography. Amateur historians at best, the chaeya date the beginning of Korean history farther back than evidence would warrant. Many even stake out a Korean historical racial space as expansive as the eastern half of Eurasia. In the 1980s, South Korea's authoritarian regime and its supporters fanned the chaeya flame to check generally anti-government tendencies of intellectuals, including academic historians. Even since the country's democratization, organized lobbying by the chaeya has affected the government's funding decisions regarding various history-related projects. Until a few years back there was a loving amazing English-language early Korean history research effort "The Early Korea Project" sponsored by the Korean government; it got a whole bunch of international collaboration between the usually extremely-insular early Koreanists and early Japanists and produced some of the best scholarship on the subject in any language for a decade or so. Then the chaeya argued it was sabotaging international understandings of Korean history and got it canned. It seriously pisses me off, if that's actually their goal they don't even realize how idiotic they are; collaborative efforts like that do more to elevate Korean history in the west than nearly anything else.
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Jan 13, 2022 18:05
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Koramei posted:Just stumbled on a way of classifying periods that I've never seen before, curious about what people think: I mean, that's basically the way historians of Europe classify periods too. A lot of times, "late modern" is just called "modern", but..... Epicurius fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jan 13, 2022 |
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Jan 13, 2022 20:09
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Oh I don't mean the terms themselves, I mean how he divides them based on tracking genealogies being opened up to a broader and broader segment of society.
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Jan 13, 2022 20:13
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euphronius posted:Wasn’t one of the big aims of the French Revolution to unfuck (liberalize) these patchwork quilts Yeah, among other things the patchwork made it impossible to unfuck the finances. With all the exemptions and most favored city status etc. Etc. Etc. There were only like 5 people left to actually pay taxes and man were they taken to the cleaners.
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Jan 13, 2022 23:42
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Epicurius posted:I mean, that's basically the way historians of Europe classify periods too. A lot of times, "late modern" is just called "modern", but..... Yeah. Despite the name the Early Modern isn't just modern history at the early end. It is very much its own thing.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:03
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it occurs to me I don't have a good instinct for where the early modern ends. 1800ish?
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Jan 14, 2022 00:06
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ulmont posted:Yeah, among other things the patchwork made it impossible to unfuck the finances. With all the exemptions and most favored city status etc. Etc. Etc. There were only like 5 people left to actually pay taxes and man were they taken to the cleaners. Not just that, the tax structure in France was completely upside down. The richer you were, or the older your nobility, the more likely you were to have purchased or inherited one or several or total exemption from the various taxes. Putting down a big lump sum to purchase tax exemption forever after was an incredible investment (especially if it was attached to a heritable title or office!), and while they may have given the crown a quick cash infusion, it came at the cost of long-term solvency; these all piled up through the 1700s until the crisis came to a head in the 80s. As a result of this system, the tax burden fell mainly on those newly successful merchants and artisans and wealthy peasant landowners who had not yet managed to buy their way into the noble elite and their associated rights and privileges, especially exemption from taxation. So, those people with the most assets and ability to pay tended to owe roughly nothing. This might also explain why so many of the most vocal revolutionaries early on tended to come from this small but quickly growing middle class.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:09
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cheetah7071 posted:it occurs to me I don't have a good instinct for where the early modern ends. 1800ish?
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Jan 14, 2022 00:10
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Another huge drag on the French economy was that the piecemeal nature of the tax system encouraged internal smuggling. Some ridiculous number of people in France were employed, part or full time, as smugglers (or as state agents attempting to suppress smuggling). Just completely wasted energy as far as the aggregate national economy was concerned. Yet another thing the Revolution was big on was imposing a universally agreed upon system of weights and measures, parts of which stuck around and became globally accepted (the metric system) and parts of which faded away (the Revolutionary calendar). FMguru fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Jan 14, 2022 |
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Jan 14, 2022 00:15
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My understanding is that you can predict basically perfectly whether a part of the metric system stuck based on whether or not there was already an international standard for that measurement. There was already an international system for clocks and calendars, so switching to metric made France the odd one out, and under pressure to switch back. Things like length and mass and volume had no international standards, so France wasn't sticking out any more than it already was. And most people agreed that having an international standard was a good idea, so once a reasonable candidate came forward (as opposed to the previous state of affairs where nobody's measures were particularly better than anybody else's), it made steady progress going from country to country
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Jan 14, 2022 00:20
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feedmegin posted:Yeah. Despite the name the Early Modern isn't just modern history at the early end. It is very much its own thing. Early Modern is the worst name and it really should be something else.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:37
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Kylaer posted:Early Modern is the worst name and it really should be something else. Pikes n' Things.
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Jan 14, 2022 00:41
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Kylaer posted:Early Modern is the worst name and it really should be something else. The good thing about history is you can just wait for a new generation to achieve tenure and they’ll decide to call it something else stupid
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Jan 14, 2022 00:49
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Grand Fromage posted:Pikes n' Things. Pike 'n Mix
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Jan 14, 2022 01:39
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Grand Fromage posted:Pikes n' Things. Or maybe something to highlight the establishment of long-term contact between the Americas and Eurasia and Africa? I feel like that's the big change that really separates the medieval world and the Early Modern.
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Jan 14, 2022 01:42
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FishFood posted:
age of sail
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Jan 14, 2022 01:44
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The Early Modern period, also known as the Post-Impressionist Era
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Jan 14, 2022 01:45
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FishFood posted:
Excuse me, weren’t you listening, the big change was as previously stated the adoption of reliable patrilineal genealogy by the middle classes
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Jan 14, 2022 01:51
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FMguru posted:Another huge drag on the French economy was that the piecemeal nature of the tax system encouraged internal smuggling. Some ridiculous number of people in France were employed, part or full time, as smugglers (or as state agents attempting to suppress smuggling). Just completely wasted energy as far as the aggregate national economy was concerned. The Republican calendar is still around and, if today is anything to go by, very good. https://twitter.com/sansculotides/status/1481762998868135936?s=20
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Jan 14, 2022 02:00
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The Republican Calendar is around the same way Esperanto is technically a spoken language. The only ones using it are contrarian pricks
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Jan 14, 2022 02:07
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