StashAugustine posted:

I just want to say, I think Its good we're having a good faith discussion of this topic but to return to the original point I think it's bullshit that people got banned for it

Judge Dredd Scott posted:

yellow peril 2, this time its woke

thotsky posted:

what about how the US treats native americans right now

quote:

it's one of those things where there's a coherent argument that the definition of genocide should include what's going on, but if you actually applied it evenly you would find that the uk did several hundred genocides and we are doing like three or four right now. what's going on in western china is bad, but mostly for more mundane reasons of cultural chauvinism, the everyday shittiness of hostile police forces, and various forms of coercing people into participating in the national wage labor market. the government is way more liberal than the public on minority issues in china, and the public in turn are somewhat more accepting of minority cultures having a place in the country than in several neighboring countries. in fact the problem is precisely that they're listening too much to the liberal stuff because they're abandoning the soviet nationalities model and want to build a western melting pot, and are trying to take the most simple liberal criticisms of how the west actually did that and apply it in naïve fashion: for example they don't want to be seen as repressing islam in general, so they try to identify a good and bad islam, and come up with various theological doctrines and ritual practices associated with each, and layer in judgments about national and separatist identity, which may or may not be defensible in theory, but then when time comes to apply in practice, it means cops and spies caring a lot about whether your mosque conducts services in arabic or some central asian language other than uighur, and getting mad if they can't quickly figure out who someone is quoting or referencing, and a dozen other situations where the details of religious life are not readily legible to the police bureaucracy, generating suspicion and hostility that they're free to take as probable cause or whatever their analogue is. like, they're basically trying to be more woke than us about it, while also doing a hell of a lot more of it and more comprehensively transformative and in everyone's face than we would (whereas the instinct of liberal interventionists when confronted with messy effects from disruptive policies is to minimize things, fiddle with edge cases, target more narrowly), and that generates extreme contradictions

quote:

do we know that maoist and/or bolivarian communes aren’t happening? yes

the situation in inner mongolia is simply that they’re telling the schools where the instruction had been primarily in mongolian language and script to switch to primarily chinese language instruction with mongolian language as a standalone subject. [other poster] is correct in noting that it would still be easy for kids who wanted to retain mongolian language in daily home and community use to do so, provided they have some motivation outside of it being the primary language of instruction. it’s also true that this level of language practice in schools would be a substantial improvement over what other people facing declining languages have available, such as most minority languages in europe, or the non-mandarin chinese dialects. it’s also true what the locals are concerned about, that this is clearly a part of the national policy of reducing the standing of minority language and practice in a top-down fashion. unlike with the tibetans or uighurs, there isn’t even a plausible negative outcome that is being avoided: ethnic mongols are well-integrated in areas where they live with han chinese, and the pockets of people who don’t speak chinese and don’t want to keep well enough to themselves. the choice between primarily mongolian language schools and primarily chinese language schools was already available in most parts of inner mongolia, and people were in the process of increasingly choosing chinese language schools for basically career opportunities. closing off the choice seems to be a pointlessly insulting move, particularly to the teachers who aren’t masters of chinese language use to the extent they are fluent in mongolian, who are facing job losses because the government doesn’t think their language is important. it’s very understandable that they and their allies in the diaspora are very unhappy about it

i don’t like it because i don’t want to be part of an oppressor people but also i think by most objective standards the mongol language and culture is still hugely better respected than, like, irish gaelic in ni. and it’s true that the market economy would have driven the same trends it has everywhere in terms of language use shifting to those dominant in large commercial areas. it’s just you would hope for communism to do positive things about that instead of saying that changing to be more efficient producers is social progress

Homeless Friend posted:

Lol the U.S. has till present day said sike and kicked/revoked tribes rights to their lands when it suited local interest.

comedyblissoption posted:

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2020/10/06/unfavorable-views-of-china-reach-historic-highs-in-many-countries/

lmao npr, the nyt, wapo, et al are blasting out sinophobic garbage constantly and i literally see it in real time and it's filtering out into the mod buttons where they don't probe or ban people for supporting american concentration campers or genociders after these facts are pointed out to them while you will do it for not toeing american orthodoxy

you cant separate hitler from his genocides, in spite of his posthumous fans who try to do so

just admit the double standard means you are unpaid enforcers of state dept lines

CYBEReris posted:

i checked the gbs china thread once and pretty much the entire thread is spinning mundane and inoffensive news into a conspiracy by winnie the pooh to block patriotic rabbit's freedom hole

THS posted:

also whataboutism owns, it's entirely valid to rest your argument on hypocrisy in geopolitics especially with regard to what your priorities should be and where you are from, what your interests are, what effect you can have. this isn't loving high school debate club and i don't give a poo poo about the technicality of doing ad homs or whatever. it's nerd poo poo and fake rules

Flavius Aetass posted:

I don't know what kind of news sources you guys are tapped into. I'm sure NPR etc. are doing the standard thing you claim they're doing, and yes, I also believe that the recent claims of millions of holocausted Uighurs is likely extremely bogus. The thing is, I never hear about it except by way of a few people in C-SPAM going out of their way to deny it, and the original problem we all had with that is how gross it seems for people to be railing against a non-existent propaganda problem on C-SPAM by denying that the Chinese government has been oppressing the poo poo out of Muslims in Xinjiang for several decades. None of the cultural genocide/forced assimilation stuff is new. I wrote papers about it in college and none of the sources were right-wing cultists or whatever you guys are talking about. I think it's extremely hosed up to defend China on this issue because it doesn't fit your definition of genocide or you think it's all made up to justify war.

I agree that we should be focusing on our own backyard considering the similarities, but that's what I've been doing and I literally only hear about this issue from people defending China.

Ferrinus posted:

there's an article in the atlantic tracing the origins of whataboutism and the incident they write about turns out to be the US threatening to nuke russia to free its people from communism and the russian diplomat at the time pointing out that, hey, it's not like we're openly fantasizing about invading you to stop all those lynchings you're doing

McConnell posted:

Genocide... is pretty bad!

THS posted:

it's nerd poo poo and fake rules

Trash Ops posted:

“I wrote papers about in college” gently caress off forever

AnimeIsTrash posted:

StashAugustine posted:

I just want to say, I think Its good we're having a good faith discussion of this topic but to return to the original point I think it's bullshit that people got banned for it

Flavius Aetass posted:

I don't know what kind of news sources you guys are tapped into. I'm sure NPR etc. are doing the standard thing you claim they're doing, and yes, I also believe that the recent claims of millions of holocausted Uighurs is likely extremely bogus. The thing is, I never hear about it except by way of a few people in C-SPAM going out of their way to deny it, and the original problem we all had with that is how gross it seems for people to be railing against a non-existent propaganda problem on C-SPAM by denying that the Chinese government has been oppressing the poo poo out of Muslims in Xinjiang for several decades. None of the cultural genocide/forced assimilation stuff is new. I wrote papers about it in college and none of the sources were right-wing cultists or whatever you guys are talking about. I think it's extremely hosed up to defend China on this issue because it doesn't fit your definition of genocide or you think it's all made up to justify war.

I agree that we should be focusing on our own backyard considering the similarities, but that's what I've been doing and I literally only hear about this issue from people defending China.

AnimeIsTrash posted:

You'd think that someone who wrote papers in college would be able to cite said articles that prove his point. Lmao

Serf posted:

the fact that getting mod powers seems to almost always turn relatively normal posters into weird hyper-obsessives who parrot state department press releases almost makes me agree with the anarchists. almost

AnimeIsTrash posted:

Ever since Biden got elected people in D&D have been playing off ICE run concentration camps that effectively genocide immigrants fleeing the destruction that the US caused in their countries and also defend the genocidal bombings of people in the middle east.

It would seem to me that these people are actively denying genocide and in some cases promoting it. Why is cspam being accused of genocide denial again?

AnimeIsTrash posted:

Ever since Biden got elected people in D&D have been playing off ICE run concentration camps that effectively genocide immigrants fleeing the destruction that the US caused in their countries and also defend the genocidal bombings of people in the middle east.

It would seem to me that these people are actively denying genocide and in some cases promoting it. Why is cspam being accused of genocide denial again?

BrutalistMcDonalds posted:

i'm not actually watching that video, i just like the image

AnimeIsTrash posted:

bill maher the china guy
bill bill bill bill
bill maher the china guy
bill bill bill bill
inertia is a property of matter

Cerebral Bore posted:

all i know about xinjiang is that the claims of genocide are coming from the same people who have blatantly lied to me for the entirety of my politically aware life