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Using the seed led to one of the funniest Souls moments I've ever had.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:16
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Sloppy Milkshake posted:you think that people playing through the game with phantoms is rare? really? Nope its fairly common and no one has a problem with that. What people are justifiably angry about are gank squads. I have a bunch of different invasion characters and gank squads seem to be mostly around SL 50-70 when you're aldrich invading or 125-140 when you're end game pvp build invading. The host always has the maximum amount of summons and most likely has a seeded world with no enemies dead. Also if they fail to catch you in whatever trap they had planned the host runs away to summon whichever one of its buddies you killed. Gank squads are nothing new either as you would see them in DS1 in dark anor londo fairly often. Sometimes I'd run into them around SL50 before O&S as well and Oolacile had its fair share too. The host had their advantages then as well however, it was never this egregious and there were tools like Tranquil Walk of Peace to handle the running roll spamming host. These are not newbies or whatever you want to refer to them as that are trying to get through the game. People are justifiably angry about having to deal with gank squads because the advantage is so one sided in favor of the host. Gerblyn posted:What do you guys mean when you say "The world is seeded"? It means the host has used a seed of the tree of the giants so that the level's enemies will attack invading phantoms.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:20
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Oxyclean posted:I think they're trying to say most of the host + 2 phantom situations are gank squads and not "just some guys trying to get through" this is also ridiculous. this may surprise some of you but most people playing the game actually, you know, playing the game. sure you'll run into a gank squad that has precleared or seeded the level, but there's tons of people that just like casually playing the game with other people. co-op in dark souls is really popular actually. Azuth0667 posted:Nope its fairly common and no one has a problem with that. What people are justifiably angry about are gank squads. I have a bunch of different invasion characters and gank squads seem to be mostly around SL 50-70 when you're aldrich invading or 125-140 when you're end game pvp build invading. The host always has the maximum amount of summons and most likely has a seeded world with no enemies dead. Also if they fail to catch you in whatever trap they had planned the host runs away to summon whichever one of its buddies you killed. that's not what was said though. they specifically said "playing coop with people is so rare as to be nonexistent" which is obviously very wrong. the stuff you said that i quoted i actually agree with.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:30
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MMF Freeway posted:Seed of a giant tree. It makes enemies attack invaders. Ah, okay. It's kind of weird reading all this, since I don't normally invade people. My experience has always been the opposite, I always get annoyed that I get outnumbered by invaders when trying to get through the Aldrich/Watchdog zones, though the (extremely rare) occurrences when I win kind of make up for it.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:33
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Gerblyn posted:Ah, okay. I thought about using the fingers and summoning all of the help I could for the Aldrich zone just because it's such a ridiculous area to begin with. I ended up just doing it unkindled.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:36
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Sloppy Milkshake posted:co-op in dark souls is really popular actually. I wonder if we have any japan-region players in here, I did read a couple of times that basically everyone co-ops in japan and there's no particular pressure or inclination to play solo. I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that FROM might have japanese players in mind when they design.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:44
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I'm gonna say this one more time: Every single time, the parameters for co-op phantoms are defined before invasion phantoms. It is not even a question that the co-op experience is higher priority than invasions. Dark Souls 2 is basically the only time it can be reasonably said that the developers thought more about the invasion aspects. Rank auras, for example, aren't just an on-off thing. They use separate multiplayer parameters entirely. Tallgeese fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 15:51
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Sloppy Milkshake posted:this is also ridiculous. this may surprise some of you but most people playing the game actually, you know, playing the game. sure you'll run into a gank squad that has precleared or seeded the level, but there's tons of people that just like casually playing the game with other people. co-op in dark souls is really popular actually. I mean, I co-op a lot, and yeah, and as an invader I run into dudes with one, sometimes two who are clearly just co-oping, I'm not saying they don't exist. But like that other dude I've run into plenty of shitlords who are clearly just sitting around waiting for invaders to show up. Sloppy Milkshake posted:that's not what was said though. they specifically said "playing coop with people is so rare as to be nonexistent" which is obviously very wrong. the stuff you said that i quoted i actually agree with. I think the dude was just trying to say it's exceptionally rare you run into two phantoms "just trying to help a host get through" - not that co-op is rare. I think there's just a lot of misunderstanding going on - the guy he was quoting was basically downplaying gank squads, suggesting HaB was just mistaking them for co-ops, to which HaB was trying to say they're deliberate and obvious. He was probably taking issue with this in particular: quote:Remember that orb invasions stick you with someone random who may very well not be interested in PvP at all, and soapstone invasions stick you with someone who actually wants you there. If you end up getting tag-teamed in the latter, that is very definitely a gank squad. The former, it could just be happenstance. Like yeah, orb invasions are going to stick you with whoever, but I'm pretty sure the whole point of gank squads is to get orb invaders. E: Personally, I'm okay with the host bias, loving with a host should be a challenge, and password summons, since being able to co-op reliably with a friend is the best thing. Won't stop me from thinking gank squads are poo poo heads though. Oxyclean fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 15:54
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The problem here is that I don't see how you can tell one from the other unless the team has a gimmick. Even real gank squads barely coordinate in any meaningful way.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:58
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Sloppy Milkshake posted:this is also ridiculous. this may surprise some of you but most people playing the game actually, you know, playing the game. sure you'll run into a gank squad that has precleared or seeded the level, but there's tons of people that just like casually playing the game with other people. co-op in dark souls is really popular actually. K well I did qualify with "in my experience" but feel free to tell me what my experience has been. Make a character, Aldrich bro from 65-80 and tell me how many "people with summons just trying to get through" you encounter. I guarantee it won't be much. You can run through the post Pontiff area in 2-3 minutes if you are "trying to get through". 90% of what I encounter are people waiting for invaders.
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Mar 23, 2017 15:58
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Post-Pontiff is a PVP hotspot. I'm not sure that helps your argument.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:00
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Tallgeese posted:The problem here is that I don't see how you can tell one from the other unless the team has a gimmick. Even real gank squads barely coordinate in any meaningful way. They don't really need to either with how poise and stamina usage was adjusted for this game.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:02
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Oxyclean posted:I think the dude was just trying to say it's exceptionally rare you run into two phantoms "just trying to help a host get through" - not that co-op is rare. I think there's just a lot of misunderstanding going on - the guy he was quoting was basically downplaying gank squads, suggesting HaB was just mistaking them for co-ops, to which HaB was trying to say they're deliberate and obvious. playing through with two phantoms is normal behavior that people do, i don't know why someone would think it's somehow this rare thing when it's something that has been encouraged since the first dark souls. sure some people gank, especially in the auto-invade areas, but it's normal and expected that people many people will play through the game as a coop experience. HaB posted:K well I did qualify with "in my experience" but feel free to tell me what my experience has been. Make a character, Aldrich bro from 65-80 and tell me how many "people with summons just trying to get through" you encounter. I guarantee it won't be much. You can run through the post Pontiff area in 2-3 minutes if you are "trying to get through". 90% of what I encounter are people waiting for invaders. instead i'm going to feel free to tell you to grow up hth
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Mar 23, 2017 16:06
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Azuth0667 posted:They don't really need to either with how poise and stamina usage was adjusted for this game. Well, that and no instant backstab invincibility to abuse like in DS1.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:06
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Tallgeese posted:The problem here is that I don't see how you can tell one from the other unless the team has a gimmick. Even real gank squads barely coordinate in any meaningful way. In my experience it's been pretty easy. It's just like the other guy said, most or all of the mobs are alive, world is seeded, host and phantoms wait in a safe spot and make zero attempt to go anywhere. Sometimes the summons are clearly higher level characters, or have weapons that would be unobtainable at that point in the game. (Granted trading makes it pretty easy to start with anything) While the host hiding or keeping their distance isn't unusual, there's a particular deliberateness that you tend to see in gank squads. I think they're just prevalent in pvp hot spots, so you'll see them a lot more with a Watchdog / lowlevel pvp character?
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Mar 23, 2017 16:06
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The only part that'll help you tell is a pre-seed and no enemies dead. The rest I can easily imagine some dedicated co-op guy doing.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:09
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Oxyclean posted:In my experience it's been pretty easy. It's just like the other guy said, most or all of the mobs are alive, world is seeded, host and phantoms wait in a safe spot and make zero attempt to go anywhere. Sometimes the summons are clearly higher level characters, or have weapons that would be unobtainable at that point in the game. (Granted trading makes it pretty easy to start with anything) While the host hiding or keeping their distance isn't unusual, there's a particular deliberateness that you tend to see in gank squads. immediately heading back to a bonfire and summoning help is a normal thing for a person to do if they aren't familiar with pvp/don't really want to engage with that aspect of the game. it's something i used to do when the first dark souls came out after a couple of twinks murdered the hell out of me with ridiculous equipment (also because i was really bad) Tallgeese posted:The only part that'll help you tell is a pre-seed and no enemies dead. The rest I can easily imagine some dedicated co-op guy doing. also when they are all just hanging out fighting people with an additional red phantom that never actually tries to fight the host. that's something that really gets me salty for some reason. Sloppy Milkshake fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Mar 23, 2017 |
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Mar 23, 2017 16:09
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Tallgeese posted:Well, that and no instant backstab invincibility to abuse like in DS1. Yeah those combined basically make it so you rarely have an opportunity to focus the host even if the host screws up spectacularly. Which was the go to strategy for handling gank squads throughout the series. I can understand trying to make PVP more forgiving and think that's a good idea because it might get more people into PVP but, this is definitely not the way to do it.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:12
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honestly now that they have an arena i kinda feel like the preference for invading worlds with multiple phantoms should be removed. or at least make it only worlds with exactly one phantom
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Mar 23, 2017 16:14
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Sloppy Milkshake posted:honestly now that they have an arena i kinda feel like the preference for invading worlds with multiple phantoms should be removed. or at least make it only worlds with exactly one phantom Or let people invade in teams. I think it'd be cool if I could get two friends and invade a gank squad together.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:16
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I wish it was possible to coop for real in DS games. Just let me play through the game with a friend, make enemies harder to compensate for it and let us both progress, loot and get credit for the bosses we kill. As it is, though? I never bother with it. Either you play coop with random people or you're forced to play through areas twice in order to progress, it's just dull and it makes bosses too easy.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:16
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Elman posted:I wish it was possible to coop for real in DS games. Just let me play through the game with a friend, make enemies harder to compensate for it and let us both progress, loot and get credit for the bosses we kill. Couch co-op would be awesome.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:18
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Sloppy Milkshake posted:honestly now that they have an arena i kinda feel like the preference for invading worlds with multiple phantoms should be removed. or at least make it only worlds with exactly one phantom The issue with this is that invading groups of people can be a lot of fun, it just needs to be balanced so that it's reasonably doable while still giving the host the edge. Two changes that would do a lot for this would be some mechanical way to avoid getting chain stunned by 2+ people, like the toggling glitch from DS1, and putting a limit on the number of summons a host can have when they're invaded, so that way if you kill a summon the host can't just keep continually summoning more.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:23
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Elman posted:I wish it was possible to coop for real in DS games. Just let me play through the game with a friend, make enemies harder to compensate for it and let us both progress, loot and get credit for the bosses we kill. Yeah, and it's easier to get burnt out playing everything twice too. Not to mention the no co-op allowed areas, or other zone boundaries that might prohibit you from going around a bit more naturally. And DS1 doesn't really do anything to make it easier to stick with a buddy. Name Engraved ring in DS2 works well enough that I was able to co-op with two friends and only got summoned once by a stranger over the course of the main game.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:31
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Genocyber posted:The issue with this is that invading groups of people can be a lot of fun, it just needs to be balanced so that it's reasonably doable while still giving the host the edge. Two changes that would do a lot for this would be some mechanical way to avoid getting chain stunned by 2+ people, like the toggling glitch from DS1, and putting a limit on the number of summons a host can have when they're invaded, so that way if you kill a summon the host can't just keep continually summoning more. You just described something that benefits anyone getting gang-attacked, and something that helps invaders. Where's the mechanic changes that ensure the host continues to have the edge, especially if they do not have a seed?
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Mar 23, 2017 16:33
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Tallgeese posted:Where's the mechanic changes that ensure the host continues to have the edge, especially if they do not have a seed? The host has more estus uses?
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Mar 23, 2017 16:37
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Tallgeese posted:You just described something that benefits anyone getting gang-attacked, and something that helps invaders. There isn't because the game is already balanced significantly in favor of the host.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:37
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Gerblyn posted:The host has more estus uses? Sure, if they haven't been going through the level.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:37
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Tallgeese posted:You just described something that benefits anyone getting gang-attacked, and something that helps invaders. For starters bring back TWoP.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:40
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Azuth0667 posted:For starters bring back TWoP. Well yeah, Faith needs something, but that's faction-neutral again.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:42
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Tallgeese posted:Well yeah, Faith needs something, but that's faction-neutral again. I should have elaborated but, that's part of the point. When used properly by the invader it can isolate the host and prevent roll spamming. Which lets you negate some of the advantage the host has while still letting them have a chance. It can also be used by the host to prevent the invader from fleeing into the level. It's a tool that can work for either side to even the odds of a fight.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:45
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Azuth0667 posted:Or let people invade in teams. I think it'd be cool if I could get two friends and invade a gank squad together. One of the big problems is you can hurt your buddy red phantom, so unless that's changed it's still really hard to go into a giant clusterfuck of 4 blues spamming attacks together while the reds have to space themselves out and can't focus one guy down that effectively.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:46
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Azuth0667 posted:I should have elaborated but, that's part of the point. When used properly by the invader it can isolate the host and prevent roll spamming. Which lets you negate some of the advantage the host has while still letting them have a chance. It can also be used by the host to prevent the invader from fleeing into the level. It's a tool that can work for either side to even the odds of a fight. But in practice you and I both know that it's something that winds up in the arsenals of the PVP-focused, meaning that realistically only gank squads and invasion aficionados will have it.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:47
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Azuth0667 posted:Or let people invade in teams. I think it'd be cool if I could get two friends and invade a gank squad together. i mean i wish, but this might also make it take a lot longer to actually invade and i'm a big dumb impatient baby
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Mar 23, 2017 16:55
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The system as is is straight up not designed for that and I cannot imagine how it would work out in practice.
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Mar 23, 2017 16:57
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I really don't have a problem with gank squads - they're either incredibly fun to fight and play around with, or they kill me within seconds so I can invade someone else. The chaotic 3v4 fights you can have in this game are (mostly) awesome! Anyway the best counter to gank-squads is to wait around for additional invaders - especially in the two covenant areas! The difference between a 3v1 and a 3v2 is huge, and a 3v3 is kinda fair (except invaders can hit each other)
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Mar 23, 2017 16:58
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Can Aldritches and Watchdogs hit each other? I cannot recall.
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Mar 23, 2017 17:01
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Nope, but they can hit darkwraiths and purples
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Mar 23, 2017 17:03
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Invading in DS3's Catacombs and using traps and enemies to my advantage was some of the most fun I had in Dark Souls PVP. Yeah you're 1vs3, but you have plenty of tools at your disposal and you can use guerrilla tactics as they progress through the map. If you want a duel just fight duels. Of course, sometimes you get That Guy who just sits by the bonfire forever and refuses to progress until you're gone. But when people actually engage with the system I don't mind being 1 or 2vs3.
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Mar 23, 2017 17:06
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Jordbo posted:Nope, but they can hit darkwraiths and purples Right, they're different teams. Purples are just weird in general.
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Mar 23, 2017 17:07
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