Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

FrozenVent posted:

There's a giant billboard in the Ottawa airport for Soho Champaign condos.

296k for a one bedroom, but they'll throw in a free Mercedes!

For those of us who don't have any idea about that project, is it reasonable? If they are large 1BRs (800 sq. ft. instead of 500 sq. ft. or something) located in whatever part of Ottawa is particularly desirable and close to work, entertainment and amenities, I don't see a huge problem. If they're tiny shoeboxes with shoddy construction, built in the middle of nowhere: problem.

# ? May 23, 2014 19:00

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# ? Jun 13, 2024 06:51

blah_blah: Apr 15, 2006

jot posted:

I saw one in Mississauga recently advertising newly built semi-detached homes starting from the mid 600s. What a steal, better get in on that!

When I lived in Vancouver I'd occasionally get flyers in the mail advertising townhomes in the Arbutus/Point Grey area starting at the low low price of 1.1 million.

# ? May 23, 2014 21:40

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

I can't think of anywhere in Canada a townhome, or even a semi-detached home, would be worth more than $600,000 without lax lending standards.

# ? May 23, 2014 21:53

Linkletter: Aug 4, 2004

blah_blah posted:

When I lived in Vancouver I'd occasionally get flyers in the mail advertising townhomes in the Arbutus/Point Grey area starting at the low low price of 1.1 million.

I live in Kitsilano and there are townhomes listed as "from the 1.2s". I love how $1,200,000 is now just "the 1.2s".

# ? May 23, 2014 21:53

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

tagesschau posted:

I can't think of anywhere in Canada a townhome, or even a semi-detached home, would be worth more than $600,000.

BC:
http://beta.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=13393793
http://beta.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=14000036
http://beta.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=14182212

Alberta:
http://beta.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=14327683
http://beta.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=13911404

And somehow Nova Scotia with the highest prices of all?!? :psypop:

http://beta.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=14400822
http://beta.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=14432328

E: I went hunting for these before you added the lax lending standards part. :v:

# ? May 23, 2014 21:58

Rick Rickshaw: Feb 21, 2007; I am not disappointed I lost the PGA Championship. Nope, I am not.

Rime posted:

And somehow Nova Scotia with the highest prices of all?!?
http://beta.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=14400822
http://beta.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?PropertyId=14432328

The Dresden Row one I can slightly defend. It's right in the heart of the city near lots of trendy shops. It's central to both jobs and entertainment. You can't get a better location in Halifax. But it is still Halifax, so that's why I say slightly defend.

I don't know why the gently caress that place in Bedford is so expensive. It's right on the water, but it still makes no sense to me. Shocking.

# ? May 24, 2014 00:59

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

http://sohochampagne.com/

IT COMES WITH A FREE CAR.

PT6A posted:

whatever part of Ottawa is (...) close to (...) entertainment,

Have you ever been to Ottawa?

I think the smallest condo is 617 square feet or so. It's 20 minutes by bus to parliament, or 8 minutes by car with no traffic ( :laugh:

) It's not a terrible value if you're fine paying 300k for a 21 ft x 18 ft shoe box, I suppose... I'm just amused by the FREE CAR.

Edit: VVV Holy poo poo that's even funnier.

FrozenVent fucked around with this message at 01:57 on May 24, 2014

# ? May 24, 2014 01:20

Rick Rickshaw: Feb 21, 2007; I am not disappointed I lost the PGA Championship. Nope, I am not.

FrozenVent posted:

http://sohochampagne.com/

IT COMES WITH A FREE CAR.

Have you ever been to Ottawa?

I think the smallest condo is 617 square feet or so. It's 20 minutes by bus to parliament, or 8 minutes by car with no traffic () It's not a terrible value if you're fine paying 300k for a 21 ft x 18 ft shoe box, I suppose... I'm just amused by the FREE CAR.

Did anyone notice that it's only a three year lease on the car?

# ? May 24, 2014 01:54

HookShot: Dec 26, 2005

Isn't the CLA basically the new "Mercedes for people who can't afford a real C-Class" as well?

# ? May 24, 2014 02:34

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

Rime posted:

E: I went hunting for these before you added the lax lending standards part.

Yeah, sorry. I clicked submit before I realized I'd left out something about the long-term value not legitimately being that high. You just can't justify it when the average buyer makes an eighth of that.

# ? May 24, 2014 04:55

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Rick Rickshaw posted:

The Dresden Row one I can slightly defend. It's right in the heart of the city near lots of trendy shops. It's central to both jobs and entertainment. You can't get a better location in Halifax. But it is still Halifax, so that's why I say slightly defend.

I don't know why the gently caress that place in Bedford is so expensive. It's right on the water, but it still makes no sense to me. Shocking.

It's a beautiful city. Everyone wants to live there. Halifax is the gateway to <some place>. Some fallacy about how metropolitan it is.

# ? May 24, 2014 06:15

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Cultural Imperial posted:

It's a beautiful city. Everyone wants to live there. Halifax is the gateway to <some place>. Some fallacy about how metropolitan it is.

"This house is ancient, and right beside the port, so you know it's bomb-proof!" :magical:

# ? May 24, 2014 06:39

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

Rime posted:

"This house is ancient, and right beside the port, so you know it's bomb-proof!"

too soon bro

# ? May 24, 2014 06:46

Saltin: Aug 20, 2003; Don't touch

HookShot posted:

Isn't the CLA basically the new "Mercedes for people who can't afford a real C-Class" as well?

Unless it's the CLA45 AMG yes, and even then, the real AMG owners are going to laugh at you.

Literally everyone we know in our neighbourhood is actively moving or bidding on houses in Leaside, Toronto. It's like some sort of mecca on the East Side for successful white people. I don't loving get it. We live a 5 minute walk from the subway and a great strip with awesome restaurants and stores, you can bike downtown in 15 minutes, and they all want to move to an area where you are tied to a car for the rest of your life and a post war bungalow that looks like grandma's house on the inside goes for a million point three. They can all afford it, but who the gently caress wants a mortgage like that and don't even try telling anyone that it just might possibly be the top of the market.

# ? May 24, 2014 15:02

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

hahaha this loving poo poo again

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Leaky+condo+crisis+rears+head+again/9871711/story.html

quote:

Evidence of a second wave in British Columbia�s leaky-condo crisis is beginning to emerge, 15 years after the first one subsided.

It is becoming more apparent as condo strata corporations prepare mandated depreciation reports on their buildings. That process is forcing them to own up to the condition of their properties and the shortcomings of maintenance programs for structures that weren�t fixed in the first wave of repairs.

Some are buildings that haven�t started leaking until recently, or that owners patched over instead of repairing their underlying defects.

There are still potentially thousands of faulty units that were built during the so-called �leaky-condo� period � from 1982-99 � which were never repaired, but figures on how many have been fixed are difficult to come by.

From property records, consultants Dale McClanaghan and Jason Copas counted about 160,000 condo units in 10,350 buildings built during the period when buildings leaked prematurely.

In a 2007 report for the B.C. Homeowner Protection Office, McClanaghan and Copas estimated that 71,600 of those condo units would suffer leaks, and at the rate repairs were being made, between 48,260 and 58,000 would be repaired by the end of 2012.

That would have left between 14,120 and 24,000 left to repair after 2012, although there is no official count of the number of units that have been repaired.

Lax maintenance has been a long-standing issue for stratas, according to Tony Gioventu, executive director of the Condominium Homeowners Association of B.C., �hence the evolution of the introduction of depreciation reports.�

The province made a depreciation report a requirement of the Strata Property Act in 2011. It contains a detailed assessment of a condo building�s condition, and a schedule for when major components, including its exterior, would need repair.

�Depreciation reports are forcing strata corporations to acknowledge what they have, and forcing them into planning (for repairs),� Gioventu said in an interview.

The requirement was enacted in 2011, but wasn�t put in force until last December to give B.C.�s 30,000 strata corporations time to commission the reports.

However, stratas have the option to exempt themselves from the requirement by agreement of three-quarters of their members.

Gioventu said that provision was put in to accommodate commercial-property stratas or strata-ownership arrangements on bare land where owners build their own homes and have no common services.

He said there there is no doubt some older residential strata corporations are exempting themselves because they know a depreciation report is �going to give them an ugly picture,� but the market is going to catch up with those situations when banks refusing financing on sales without the reports.

Gioventu said if there is a common theme, it is that �strata corporations have not been maintaining their buildings,� which is evident in problems that are cropping up with building decks and balconies, roofing systems and windows.

The depreciation reports are coming in almost five years after the province cancelled an interest-free loan program that was put in place and run through the B.C. Homeowner Protection Office, to help cash-strapped homeowners pay for repairs.

The loan program ran for 11 years but was cancelled in 2009, leaving homeowners to finance repairs either on their own or through their strata corporations.

That�s hitting home for a 21-unit condo building in Port Coquitlam, which undertook an inspection report that revealed a potential $1.5-million repair bill to replace the 27-year-old building�s entire exterior.

Strata council member Cherif Abdallah said in a story on Global News that each owner is looking at paying $71,000, which is putting residents � mostly seniors, but some young families � in a tough spot.

�We�re all at a loss; we don�t know where we�re going to go,� Abdallah said.

Vancouver realtor Lori Antunovic expects to be foreclosed on in her Fairview-area condo because she won�t be able to finance a possible $135,000 assessment for repairs.

Antunovic had a property inspection done before she bought the apartment in an eight-unit strata on Eighth Avenue 19 years ago, �and everybody said it was fine here,� she said.

It wasn�t until about seven years ago, Antunovic said, that she started noticing problems, leaks into her bathroom first, and then the dining room. More leaks became apparent around decks and planter boxes, she said.

�And the exterior stucco just looks like a moss patch,� Antunovic said.

She added that the strata has made spot repairs including new decks and, a couple of years ago replaced the exterior flashing and applied new paint.

�That didn�t fix the problems at all,� Antunovic said, but her assessment to pay for it was $10,000.

Last year, Antunovic said, the strata corporation commissioned an engineering report that recommended replacing the building�s exterior with a rain-screen wall.

�I don�t have any options,� she said. �My options are to list my home and try to get someone else to buy my problem, or find another job that has more stability some time in the next two months.�

James Balderson, a long-time advocate for leaky-condo owners, said the Port Coquitlam condo owners aren�t alone; he still fields about three or four inquiries a month from people dealing with the problem.

�Many are angry with the government for killing the (interest-free) loan program,� said Balderson, who led a group under the name Coalition of Leaky Condo Owners.

�They�re forced into the same situation as before the loan program, whereby they are unable to refinance their condos and raise funds, and strata corporations make efforts to foreclose on them to collect amounts owing.�

Time is against many owners of condos from the so-called leaky period, according to Gioventu.

Condo buildings are defined as leaky when elements of their building exterior fail prematurely, �with prematurely meaning in less than 25 years.

�It�s no longer a leaky condo when a building is older than 25 years and it�s been neglected,� Gioventu said, �It�s just a neglected building.�

He said that more than a decade of heightened public awareness around the problem should have prompted owners to deal with their problems.

�There was an opportunity, given the time frame, over a 15-year period, to investigate buildings and look at them for maintenance requirements and inspection options,� Gioventu said. �Why didn�t strata corporations do that when they had that opportunity?

�In retrospect, the costs they would have faced would have been marginal, with the no-interest loan program, compared with what they�re facing now,� Gioventu said.

In terms of the number of leaky condos out there, the only figure the Homeowner Protection Office has is that some 16,000 homeowners availed themselves of that interest-free loan program.

It was supported by a $750-per-unit levy applied to new construction, and paid out $670 million in loans during its 11-year span, but was terminated in 2009 during a slowdown in the new construction market.

�My sense is the trajectory (of failures and repairs) didn�t change after 2007,� McClanaghan said. �With the absence of the loans for repair assistance, it likely caused a slower pace of remediation.�

During their work in 2007, the consultants found the average value of interest-free loans had increased to $63,511 per unit from $24,144 in 2000, due to rising construction costs.

However, the government has said it won�t be reviving the plan.

The minister responsible for housing, Rich Coleman, was not available for an interview, but in an emailed statement a representative of the Homeowner Protection Office said they are �not seeing or anticipating a significant increase in �leaky condos.� �

�The province has no plans to reinstate the reconstruction loan program,� said Wendy Acheson, the HPO vice-president and registrar.

She said leaks �are caused by several factors, including lack of adequate maintenance,� and depreciation reports should help strata corporations determine the costs for looking after their buildings.

However, for buildings in which major problems have been discovered, McClanaghan said, the financial strain posed by construction estimates makes it difficult for strata corporations with problems to obtain the approval of 75 per cent of owners they need to go ahead with special assessments to cover the costs of repairs.

�That probably puts more buildings into limbo where they continue to deteriorate,� McClanaghan said.

Alan Cadwell, a cost-control adviser for strata councils, agrees with McClanaghan on that point.

He built a business, B.C. Condo Advocate, out of advising strata councils how to mitigate the costs of major repairs during the crisis, but his work in this area largely evaporated after the loan program ended.

While buildings from the era are still leaking, Cadwell said, strata councils are choosing to do �targeted repairs� that patch leaks, rather than comprehensive repairs that fix underlying defects, �because they simply don�t have the money.�

Contractors are still busy with major condo renovations, said Anton Van Dyk, business development manager for the firm Centra Construction Group, but that is because they are doing more restoration work on older buildings where siding and exteriors have reached the end of their life.

�What we fixed 10 years ago was everything built in the 1980s,� Van Dyk said. �Now, what we tend to fix is everything built in the �60s.�

Van Dyk worked as a consultant on leaky-condo remediation projects earlier in his career, and saw jobs that were planned and ready to proceed put back on the shelf after the loan program was cancelled �because nobody could get the financing to do the work.�

Cadwell said the interest-free loan program �was a great program,� arguing it didn�t cost much money compared with the amount of construction activity it sparked, and helped a lot of homeowners more easily recover from the huge setback of premature major repairs.

�We were able to fix buildings � comprehensively fix, put good warranties on them for 10 years � values went up and they could sell units and recover their costs,� Cadwell said.

Condo owners have options. If individual owners can�t afford the full amount of special assessments, or can�t finance repairs on their credit, strata corporations can take out loans on behalf of the building.

�In the last two or three years, there has been an increase in the number of lenders that fund these (strata loans),� said Brian Chatfield, president of North-Vancouver-based 1 City Financial Ltd.

TD Bank, Bank of Montreal, Vancity and Blueshore Financial credit unions have joined private lenders in offering the loans, said Chatfield, who brokers such financing as part of his business.

�It�s another option for payment that sometimes helps get resolutions passed so work can take place,� Chatfield said.

Lenders secure the loans against the value of unpaid levies, which the strata corporation has considerable power to collect if an individual owner doesn�t keep up with payments, he said.

The catch, Chatfield said, is that the loans are considered commercial financing, with interest rates that can be higher than �what people are accustomed to on their residential mortgages.�

However, the rates are becoming more competitive as more lenders have entered this market, according to Jeremy Bramwell, president of the appraisal firm Bramwell & Associates Realty Services Ltd., a major provider of depreciation reports to stratas.

Bramwell said another thing the depreciation reports accomplish is forcing strata corporations to confront how well they�ve funded their reserve accounts, which is pertinent to any major repairs their buildings face.

He said it is a constant battle for stratas. The tendency is to keep strata maintenance fees as low as possible, versus building up reserves for major repairs.

In his experience, strata reserve funds average between 10 and 25 per cent of being fully funded.

�The lower (the ratio), the more special assessments you�re going to have, and the higher they�re going to be when they come,� Bramwell said.

Chatfield said arranging for strata borrowing is a challenge, considering that �you are dealing with communities,� and getting 75 per cent of the community members to agree on taking out a loan is still difficult.

�There are some members of the community that are better off than others,� with a mix of older owners who may have considerable resources mixed with first-time buyers without much equity to leverage, he said.

If an owner cannot pay their portion of a loan back, the strata corporation can place a lien on their interest and foreclose on the owner to enforce repayment, Chatfield said. Repayment of the strata loan will have priority, even over the owner�s own mortgage.

Chatfield said he has brokered loans for stratas to cover remediation work for $600,000 to $1 million, but said lenders will also back off when the ratio of a loan to property value is too high, such as $70,000 per unit against units worth $140,000 to $150,000.

�(Lenders) don�t want to be there,� he said, and this remains a �niche� form of lending.

Gioventu said encouraging strata councils to do adequate maintenance work is one of the industry�s challenges regardless of a building�s age. Building exteriors wear out in time and need to be replaced, Gioventu said, and stratas need to prepare for that.

�People think living in strata is cheaper (than living in a house). It�s not cheaper,� Gioventu said. �You don�t need to do as much (maintenance) work because you hire experts (to do it), but it isn�t necessarily cheaper.�

depenner@vancouversun.com

Twitter.com/derrickpenner

Major milestones in B.C.�s leaky condo crisis

1995: The Building Envelope Research Consortium is established through an initiative of Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation to act as a co-ordinating agency for the research of building envelope problems in B.C.

1996: CMHC releases its Survey of Building Envelope Failures in the Coastal Climate of British Columbia.

1998: Former B.C. Premier Dave Barrett establishes a commission of inquiry into the quality of condominium construction in B.C. Its 82 recommendations include changes to zoning regulations, building codes, provincial and federal law, financing, contractor licensing, and requirements of design professionals; and establishment of a compensation fund for reconstruction and a provincial Homeowner Protection Office.

1999: A second Barrett Commission is established following the collapse of the New Home Warranty of British Columbia Inc. Findings recommend 100-per-cent compensation up to $25,000 per unit for repairs, with costs shared equally between the provincial and federal governments and the B.C. condominium construction industry.

2000: The B.C. Assessment Authority announces it will cost $220 million to repair the 14,521 leaky condo units identified in that year�s property assessments.

2000: Housing Minister Jan Pullinger announces new regulations will require contractors to be licensed by the Homeowner Protection Office and to provide third-party warranty insurance to obtain permits for building-envelope repairs.

2001: The B.C. government estimates 65,000 condominium units have suffered water damage that will cost $1.5 billion to repair. Some advocacy groups predict the damage estimates will grow to 90,000 units and $2 billion.

2001: The board of the Greater Vancouver Regional District calls on the two senior levels of government to activate disaster-relief legislation and provide financial assistance to leaky condo owners.

2003: A judge rules that condo owners must hold a meeting and pass a special resolution with three-quarters approval of condo owners before a class-action lawsuit can be started.

2005: Six years after the New Home Warranty came into effect, 100,000 new residences have been brought to market with the warranty insurance attached.

2008: A report by the Homeowner Protection Office states at least 72,000 strata units leaked and suffered water damage, and possibly as many as 87,500 units.

2009: B.C. government scraps the 10-year-old program, which provided interest-free loans of almost $670 million to the owners of 16,000 condos, primarily on the South Coast.

2010: A precedent-setting decision by the Supreme Court of Canada means owners of leaky condos can pursue the general contractor�s insurance policy to try to recoup some of the cost of damages caused by defective construction by subcontractors.

Compiled by Vancouver Sun librarian Kate Bird

# ? May 24, 2014 17:02

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Cultural Imperial posted:

hahaha this loving poo poo again

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Leaky+condo+crisis+rears+head+again/9871711/story.html

A condo is a investment since you come home from work and find a $10,000 dollar strata bill in the mail.

# ? May 24, 2014 17:33

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

Cultural Imperial posted:

hahaha this loving poo poo again

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Leaky+condo+crisis+rears+head+again/9871711/story.html

So much schadenfreude. Vancouver REALTOR expects to be foreclosed upon. People are angry at the government [for stopping giving them free money to offset their own stupidity].

It's fun to contrast this with the earlier article. Clearly the solution to Vancouver's housing problem is to remove red tape and relax building standards (even more).

etalian posted:

A condo is a investment since you come home from work and find a ~~$10,000~~ $74,000 dollar strata bill in the mail.

Fixed that for you. :unsmigghh:

# ? May 24, 2014 21:42

etalian: Mar 20, 2006

Lead out in cuffs posted:

So much schadenfreude. Vancouver REALTOR expects to be foreclosed upon. People are angry at the government [for stopping giving them free money to offset their own stupidity].

It's fun to contrast this with the earlier article. Clearly the solution to Vancouver's housing problem is to remove red tape and relax building standards (even more).

Fixed that for you.

Yeah the timeline is hilarious basically piles of condos built in the 80s started to get water damage problems after a fair low 10 year window due to bad design/poor quality construction and also the strata councils not doing adequate maintenance.

So the solution was for the BC taxpayer to underwrite the condo stupidity via zero interest loans and other types of free bailout money.

It's another reason why rent focused buildings are a better deal for the city since management companies want low maintenance robust buildings and also have a big incentive to do proper maintenance due to all the various renter protection laws.

# ? May 25, 2014 16:41

peter banana: Sep 2, 2008; Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

so do people in BC pay $500+/month in maintenance fees for their condo? That's de rigeur here in Toronto, if so why the gently caress aren't these repair fees coming out of that money? I thought that's what it was for?

# ? May 25, 2014 17:53

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

peter banana posted:

so do people in BC pay $500+/month in maintenance fees for their condo? That's de rigeur here in Toronto, if so why the gently caress aren't these repair fees coming out of that money? I thought that's what it was for?

Maintenance fees are very low in Vancouver. That's the whole problem.

# ? May 25, 2014 18:01

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Easier to sell a condo if the monthly fees are low.

Plus your average member of the population can't calculate amortization or understand the concept of preventative maintenance, or even maintenance planning. Strata board members are picked from the average population, but tend to self-select toward people with too much time on their hand, and people who don't spend their whole days managing poo poo because they don't want to be doing that when they get home.

So you get condos who are shocked - SHOCKED - to find out they have to replace the roof twenty-five years in. What do you mean we have to pay to do that?

# ? May 25, 2014 18:06

Kalenn Istarion: Nov 2, 2012; Maybe Senpai will finally notice me now that I've dropped :fivebux: on this snazzy av

Cultural Imperial posted:

Maintenance fees are very low in Vancouver. That's the whole problem.

Toronto has much more strict rules about reserve fund estimation as well. It's good in many ways because it means you aren't nearly as likely to get surprised. That said, there are times when I wish my condo fee on the place I'm renting out there was not $980/month on a 1200 square foot unit. My building is an older one so it includes lots of unusual stuff like cable, all utilities, a couple shuttle buses with full time drivers who do trips all over the city, a for-profit restaurant that doesn't make much profit, and a crusty, wealthy, old board that are probably spending more on the common elements than I would personally have chosen to do.

The last 5 annual budgets have included a 5% increase in costs for 5 years followed by a reversion to 2% :cripes:

# ? May 25, 2014 18:33

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

I know tons of right wing idiots in Victoria who say the housing cost problem could be solved by "the market" if we just "cut the red tape". They say poo poo like "Just let people build what ever they want how ever they want and if people are willing to live there let them buy it!"

They've sometimes be ok with the most basic of structural and fire/electrical safety code but see anything else as "pointless red tape". This sort of thinking has a lot of following amongst the general population. "Supply and demand". Increase the supply and prices will go down! it doesn't help that developers and realtors push this line hard.

Also the government needs to do MORE in terms of lowering interest rates and helping people afford bigger mortgages.

# ? May 25, 2014 20:07

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

It's memorial day in amerikkka and i'm watching love it or list it vancouver.

http://www.wnetwork.com/shows/love-it-or-list-it-vancouver/episodes - Geneva and David

I loving love realtor math:

# ? May 26, 2014 19:05

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Since you spent $100k on the reno's, doesn't that reduce the actual value increase to only $42k?

# ? May 26, 2014 19:10

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Rime posted:

Since you spent $100k on the reno's, doesn't that reduce the actual value increase to only $42k?

Uh that's normal math, this is a REALTOR MATH only thread, sorry.

# ? May 26, 2014 19:11

Lobok: Jul 13, 2006; Say Watt?

They can just dismiss it as talking about the home's value, not the owners' profits.

Edit: Though of course the second half-truth is that the increase in value is only realized upon actually selling the place.

# ? May 26, 2014 19:14

egg tats: Apr 3, 2010

Rime posted:

Since you spent $100k on the reno's, doesn't that reduce the actual value increase to only $42k?

How dare you subtract costs. Numbers can only ever go UP UP UP. That is Capitalism's first and only law.

# ? May 26, 2014 19:14

weird: Jun 4, 2012; by zen death robot

I can't think of anywhere in Canada a townhome, or even a semi-detached home, would be worth more than $600,000 without lax lending standards.

# ? May 26, 2014 19:23

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

An ugly faux-toronto style townhouse project went up here recently and they were all in the 700+ range. The best part is that the first project proposed was a 15 story condo and the neighbourhood association bussed people to city hall to protest. Their main arguments were the height/density being too high for their sleepy residential areas (the site was right on the border of their neighbourhood and downtown and surrounded by office buildings and 20+ story towers). But their main thrust was that they want an inclusive neighbourhood and we need less luxury condos and more affordable rentals!! They yelled so much about greedy developers and rich condo owners and how the city needs rentals council gave in and denied the project.

Fast forward a couple years later a new project is proposed. This time only 10 stories and it's all rental, with many of them subsidized in partnership with the government and a local housing agency. The same loving people came out and this time said it was once again too tall/dense and there wasn't enough affordable housing in the mix.

Finally they proposed some 3 story 700+k townhouse mansions and it passed with their blessing.

Victoria neighbourhood associations, vanguards of affordability.

# ? May 26, 2014 19:34

ocrumsprug: Sep 23, 2010; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Lobok posted:

They can just dismiss it as talking about the home's value, not the owners' profits.

Edit: Though of course the second half-truth is that the increase in value is only realized upon actually selling the place.

Even after you sold the place, it would still be a loss as the closing fees and sales commissions are probably double that.

# ? May 26, 2014 20:14

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

ocrumsprug posted:

Even after you sold the place, it would still be a loss as the closing fees and sales commissions are probably double that.

If you were selling anyway, of course, that wouldn't eat all of the difference.

But there's no way these people aren't just flipping.

# ? May 26, 2014 20:18

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

So let's do the real world maths, assuming a flipping scenario:

Pre reno value: $1,158,000

Let's be kind and assume no buyer's agent fee.

Reno: -$100,000

Selling agent's fee: -$20,000

Sold for: $1,300,000

Net: $22,000

Adjustment for inflation at about 2% per year, assuming this whole process takes about two years to complete: -$52,000

Actual net, after inflation: -$30,000, plus opportunity costs

This also doesn't account for two year's worth of mortgage interest, cause you just know the person doing this isn't laying down $1.25 mil in cash.

# ? May 26, 2014 20:42

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

see, it's negative thinking like this makes bill vanderzalm cry

all you cowardly freeloaders and your fancy math.

# ? May 26, 2014 20:49

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

http://www.mortgagebrokernews.ca/news/broker-not-sold-on-condo-optimism-178008.aspx

quote:

One leading Ottawa broker isn�t convinced the city's condo market will heat up, despite optimistic reports from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

�I don�t think we�ll see it heat up � we�re seeing that the prices of condos have gone down five to 10 per cent,� Sam Himyary, broker and certified financial planner with Mortgage Brokers Ottawa told MortgageBrokerNews.ca. �I think it will stabilize, and if not, go down for a bit; it won�t be gloomy but it�s not going to heat up.�

According to Sandra Perez Torres, senior market analyst for CMHC, Ottawa�s condo market is expected to experience a surge as fence sitting buyers take advantage of low rates and a market that has been cooling since late 2013.

�That's what a lot of people like to call a soft landing -- that's what we are seeing in Ottawa," Perez Torres told the Ottawa Sun. "We are seeing a soft landing where incomes continue growing and prices will grow at a lesser rate. That implies that Ottawa is more affordable."

Ottawa is expected to see 5,020 housing starts in 2014, a significant drop from 2013�s 6,560. Single-detached homes are expected to account for only 33 per cent of those and sales are expected to drop from 14,049 in 2013 to 13,750 in 2014.

But the evidence is in the rental market, according to Himyary, where the average rent is forecasted to hold relatively steady at $1,140 for two bedroom units (up from $1,132 in 2013).

�Most condo buyers purchase them for investment purposes. For example if you buy a $300,000 condo with 20 per cent down, after the condo fees and taxes, the rent will barely cover your mortgage,� Himyary said. �Any future increase in interest rates will make it even more unfavourable as an investment.�

Still, some argue first-time buyers may be drawn to the condo market in Canada�s capital city. Another point Himyary disagrees with.

�There isn�t a huge demand in Ottawa for 700 square foot condos, as an example,� he said. �We are a government town, not a business town. Most people who work downtown in the core of the city live in the suburbs.�

gently caress you Ottawa.

Also this needs to be repeated:

quote:

According to Sandra Perez Torres, senior market analyst for CMHC, Ottawa�s condo market is expected to experience a surge as fence sitting buyers take advantage of low rates and a market that has been cooling since late 2013.

�That's what a lot of people like to call a soft landing -- that's what we are seeing in Ottawa," Perez Torres told the Ottawa Sun. "We are seeing a soft landing where incomes continue growing and prices will grow at a lesser rate. That implies that Ottawa is more affordable."

# ? May 26, 2014 21:53

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Cultural Imperial posted:

http://www.mortgagebrokernews.ca/news/broker-not-sold-on-condo-optimism-178008.aspx

gently caress you Ottawa.

Also this needs to be repeated:

Dude the condo market is totally fine!

Also we'll give you a car if you buy one of ours.

# ? May 26, 2014 21:59

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

The prices are going down, this proves the market is healthy because low prices attract more buyers!

# ? May 26, 2014 22:01

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

Lead out in cuffs posted:

So let's do the real world maths, assuming a flipping scenario:

Pre reno value: $1,158,000

The people on that show are (supposedly) not usually flippers but just normal people who've had trouble selling their home because of outdated interior design/decor/whatever, which apparently matters to some buyers who are willing to spend a million dollars on a home but not a tenth of that to rearrange the interior to their liking.

# ? May 26, 2014 22:02

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

eXXon posted:

which apparently matters to some buyers who are willing to spend a million dollars on a home but not a tenth of that to rearrange the interior to their liking.

I think you're being a little harsh, there. First of all, people buying a home probably don't want to immediately do renovations. Moving is bad enough; following it up with the hellishness of trying to renovate large parts of your new dwelling sounds like torture. Secondly, poor decor/design will not properly emphasize the features of the house that will appeal to buyers, and as most people aren't interior designers, they probably won't be able to accurately picture what it *could* be after they renovate it and decorate it just so.

# ? May 26, 2014 22:07

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# ? Jun 13, 2024 06:51

namaste friends: Sep 18, 2004; by Smythe

FrozenVent posted:

Dude the condo market is totally fine!

Also we'll give you a car if you buy one of ours.

And that's a loving CMHC employee saying that. What. The. gently caress.

# ? May 26, 2014 22:07

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

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