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Silver2195 posted:"Motte-and-bailey" seems more specific, though (equivocation between a "moderate" and an "extreme" position). Here you go. The Vosgian Beast posted:Time to bring out this link Anyway it should probably be mentioned that the reactos have a token black guy in the form of JayMan and a token Bangladeshi guy in Razib Khan. They even tried to spin Khan getting fired from the New York Times as being white racism against a POC.
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Nov 4, 2015 17:32
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Silver2195 posted:"Motte-and-bailey" seems more specific, though (equivocation between a "moderate" and an "extreme" position). See also the "two-step of terrific triviality," which was coined for the same phenomena and with the same implication of disingenuousness: John Holbo posted:To put it another way, Goldberg is making a standard rhetorical move which has no accepted name, but which really needs one. I call it ‘the two-step of terrific triviality’. Say something that is ambiguous between something so strong it is absurd and so weak that it would be absurd even to mention it. When attacked, hop from foot to foot as necessary, keeping a serious expression on your face. With luck, you will be able to generate the mistaken impression that you haven’t been knocked flat, by rights. As a result, the thing that you said which was absurdly strong will appear to have some obscure grain of truth in it. Even though you have provided no reason to think so. M+B is a bit catchier, though, if only because each side of the elision gets its own term in the metaphor. In general the LWsphere has been pretty prolific with new terms for how people argue online, and I would expect a few of them to end up being useful (regardless of whether M+B is.)
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Nov 4, 2015 18:05
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To be exceedingly fair and correct, JayMan is really a political liberal who just happens to be really hereditarian and also surrounded by reactionaries - so Scott, basically.
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Nov 4, 2015 18:08
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Any funny examples of nrxers motte and baileying thenselves?
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Nov 4, 2015 18:10
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Cingulate posted:Any funny examples of nrxers motte and baileying thenselves? I was about to say that Moldbug does it all the time, but really what Moldbug does is just plain old equivocation; he doesn't really "retreat" so much as conflate things. http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/09/technology-communism-and-brown-scare.html quote:Once you learn to recognize the distinction between empathic and nonempathic altruism, you'll see it everywhere. Empathic altruism - charity - is simply good. Nonempathic altruism - communism - is simply evil. The trick here, of course, is that by using the words "charity" and "communism" he's conflating empathic vs. nonempathic altruism (which I'll admit is a real distinction, but one which is often made too much of) with private and government action, respectively.
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Nov 4, 2015 18:42
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Well, yeah. That's why you gotta name the things being equivocated. Silver2195 posted:"Motte-and-bailey" seems more specific, though (equivocation between a "moderate" and an "extreme" position). I mean, "motte and bailey" is hypothetically useful, but in practice marks you as a totally-not-neoreactionary ... oh yeah.
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Nov 4, 2015 18:47
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Silver2195 posted:The trick here, of course, is that by using the words "charity" and "communism" he's conflating empathic vs. nonempathic altruism (which I'll admit is a real distinction, but one which is often made too much of) with private and government action, respectively. * Communist = a right wing perspective of how America works that has almost, but not quite nothing in common with communism
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Nov 4, 2015 18:52
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Cingulate posted:Moldbug is usually far more out there isn't he? Just arbitrarily redefining terms. "America is a Communist* country" Other way around: Moldbug argues that America is communist, with a small c, which has almost, but not quite, nothing in common with Communism. (Never mind that small-c communism is already used to refer to pre-Marxist collective ownership.)
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Nov 4, 2015 18:55
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The Motte is that postmodernism is an unsustainable relativism. The Bailey is that it's sheer nonsense with no meaning or truth value at all. Or maybe the other way around, I forget.
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Nov 4, 2015 19:17
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http://slartibartfastibast.com/post/132549679524/going-to-unfollow-over-your-critical-thinking what the gently caress is going on here
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Nov 4, 2015 21:41
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Merdifex posted:http://slartibartfastibast.com/post/132549679524/going-to-unfollow-over-your-critical-thinking "political correctness is tying the hands of our Boys in Blue"
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Nov 4, 2015 21:50
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Cingulate posted:What's with all these uber-pretentious names? Plato Rising? Pseudoerasmus? Yvein? What's the thing with how their names seem like nothing but attempts to, uh, signal how they've read a book?
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Nov 4, 2015 21:52
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Merdifex posted:http://slartibartfastibast.com/post/132549679524/going-to-unfollow-over-your-critical-thinking By misrepresenting this novelty news story, progs are raping children duh.
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Nov 4, 2015 22:42
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http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/11/03/what-developmental-milestones-are-you-missing/ New SSC post. Liked the bit about different cultures that aren't Western being childish. Also liked the bit about left-wing and far-right rhetoric being the same on the meta-level, or whatever that was supposed to be.
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Nov 5, 2015 02:22
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If meta level means finding homosexual acts and killing dead people equivalent, then I guess I'll stay on the object level.
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Nov 5, 2015 02:34
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quote:This would have an funny corollary; the LW Sequences try to hammer in how different other minds can be from your own in order to develop the skill of thinking about artificial intelligences, but whether or not AI matters this might be an unusually effective hack to break a certain type of person out of their egocentrism and teach them how to deal with other humans.
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Nov 5, 2015 02:43
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http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/11/04/houellebecqs-islam-houellebecqs-west/
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Nov 5, 2015 05:51
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I think I went to high school with Davis Aurini, his name sounds really familiar. I swear I'm not making this up.
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Nov 5, 2015 06:18
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What. Is this the European version of those Left Behind apocalypse books?
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Nov 5, 2015 06:22
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Michel Houellebecq could probably write a novel about a sympathetically portrayed pedophile who goes around randomly killing muslim immigrants and the usual whiteboy suspects would drool about how brilliant it was.
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Nov 5, 2015 15:52
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And Douthat classifies him under NRx. And like NRx, his conjecture is supposedly implausible and reaching but true and meaningful at the same time.
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Nov 5, 2015 16:37
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Douthat would convert instantly if he thought Sharia would do a better job of preserving his comfortable life and vision of how society should work. The man is basically peak 'It's always projection'.
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Nov 5, 2015 19:24
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I'm a bit confused by the low sympathy scores for Islam amongst these people. Is it anything but not-invented-here syndrome (incidentally, also a huge problem in the Muslim world ...) and of course racism?
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Nov 5, 2015 20:04
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Cingulate posted:I'm a bit confused by the low sympathy scores for Islam amongst these people. Is it anything but not-invented-here syndrome (incidentally, also a huge problem in the Muslim world ...) and of course racism? There's not really a "generic" reactionary justification you can have for it, but each leg of "trike" has its own prior reasons for rejecting Islamism: for the techcoms the problem with Islam is that it's not compatible with their vision of capitalism; for the ethnats the problem with Islam is that it's too brown; and for the tradcats the problem with Islam is that it's too Muslim.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:48
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Reactionaries are hilariously divided as to how to classify Islam (especially radical Islam). Is it "progressive" because it's anti-imperialist and right-wing Westerners tend to be more against it than left-wing Westerners? Is is "reactionary" (though not necessarily an ally of the neoreactionaries) because of gender issues? Or is it "neither progressive nor reactionary, merely barbaric" because it's non-Western? The last option is in tension with the neoreactionary tendency to apply labels like "progressive" and "reactionary" to Chinese history.
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Nov 5, 2015 20:56
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Silver2195 posted:Reactionaries are hilariously divided as to how to classify Islam (especially radical Islam). Is it "progressive" because it's anti-imperialist
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Nov 5, 2015 21:12
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Cingulate posted:... how is Islam anti imperialist? Unless you define Imperialism = what America does/likes. According to Moldbug, bin Laden's (say) anti-Americanism is Americanism, which is Communism. Got it?
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Nov 5, 2015 21:25
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Cingulate posted:... how is Islam anti imperialist? Unless you define Imperialism = what America does/likes. Perhaps I should have placed quotes around "anti-imperialist."
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Nov 5, 2015 22:07
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Oligopsony posted:According to Moldbug, bin Laden's (say) anti-Americanism is Americanism, which is Communism. Got it? Ow, that's... wow
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Nov 6, 2015 05:10
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http://thefutureprimaeval.net/the-dark-side-of-the-weak-galt-hypothesis/ This blog BTW has pride of place on Scott's links to the blogosphere
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Nov 6, 2015 08:39
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So if I'm reading this guy correctly, he's saying rampant economic inequality is fine, perhaps even preferable, for ethereal reasons mostly involving vindicating the Great Man theory of history? It is a little chilling, of course, to see an assertion of "Yeah, most of those people are useless and could just die off." Of course, one would wonder what he would do if the "weak galt" habits weren't actually hereditary...
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Nov 6, 2015 09:02
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Nessus posted:So if I'm reading this guy correctly, he's saying rampant economic inequality is fine, perhaps even preferable, for ethereal reasons mostly involving vindicating the Great Man theory of history? Something like that? Also this apparently means that a successful economy means that progressivism is ruining everything as interpreted by a bunch of racist idiots
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Nov 6, 2015 09:32
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Jason Sextro posted:I think I went to high school with Davis Aurini, his name sounds really familiar. I swear I'm not making this up. I can't let this slip by. You must figure out if it's true and post everything you know about him in high school. It's vital for our research.
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Nov 6, 2015 15:45
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quote:Now, on one hand, the Weak Galt Hypothesis favors a sort of throne and altar conservatism. It reinforces the notion of a natural aristocracy, throws some weight behind the Great Man theory of history, and is joyously anti-democratic as it lauds the virtues of the productive classes. Of course, those were never the premises of throne and altar conservatism - which always insisted, on the contrary, that work was degrading to the soul, and that therefore Great Men should keep busy with war, art, and politics. Peasants, slaves, and merchants were economically productive, which is why they were despised.
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Nov 6, 2015 15:47
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Art was ungentlemanly if the art you created benefited anyone else, however. An 18th century nobleman might have occasionally played a Haydn piece on violin in his drawing room for the pleasure of himself and a couple of friends, but Haydn himself was a servant, not a gentleman.
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Nov 6, 2015 17:41
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MizPiz posted:I can't let this slip by. You must figure out if it's true and post everything you know about him in high school. It's vital for our research. Bear in mind this was 15 years ago, so my memory is a little bit fuzzy, but I asked my sister and she remembers him vaguely too. When I get a chance to go back to my parents's house I'm going to see if I can find an old yearbook. He didn't always look like a hilarious Anton LaVey, though I do remember cowboy hats and leather dusters. He was always a creepy weirdo who didn't have much luck with women, so his Pokemon evolution to current day isn't that surprising if you think of it as overcompensation for being a mediocre person with no actual talent for anything. I wish I could remember funnier stories but I didn't really hang out with them and not many people I knew did, because most people thought he was creepy from what I remember.
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Nov 6, 2015 17:52
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I find it baffling how ugly matt forney is. like, I know thats the most schoolyard criticism ever but he presents himself as an authority on women while being a shabbily dressed dough-man, Roosh at least looks like he might have gone for a jog at one point in his life.
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Nov 6, 2015 21:39
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Oligopsony posted:Of course, those were never the premises of throne and altar conservatism - which always insisted, on the contrary, that work was degrading to the soul, and that therefore Great Men should keep busy with war, art, and politics. Peasants, slaves, and merchants were economically productive, which is why they were despised.
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Nov 6, 2015 21:47
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Nessus posted:So what's with all this Protestant work ethic poo poo? Was this a legitimate shift in society, or did rich people just decide to excoriate Poors into working themselves to death to produce more friedman units for the masters? Different group of people, the Protestant work ethic is mostly Dutch/Anglo bourgeois and petite bourgeois. Throne and Altar conservatism comes from nobles and leans Catholic. If you're inclined to read all of history through a left/right lens (which is dumb, don't do that) the PWEs would actually be on the left. People with those ideas are considered conservatives now, but when neo-reactionaries talk about "when it all went wrong" they mean anywhere between the French Revolution and the Protestant Reformation.
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Nov 6, 2015 22:36
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massive spider posted:I find it baffling how ugly matt forney is. like, I know thats the most schoolyard criticism ever but he presents himself as an authority on women while being a shabbily dressed dough-man, Roosh at least looks like he might have gone for a jog at one point in his life. It's really amazing. He even has the balls to make fun of other nerds such as in this article Gamergate was nicely willing to forget when he started courting them
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Nov 6, 2015 22:40
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