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Humidora posted:Tech workers have little incentive to unionize because at best, they'll see better working conditions, but at a big risk of losing the ability to individually negotiate salary raises (and jumping to other companies to further leverage themselves which is what currently happens). If it fails, they get quickly replaced and become persona non grata at the other nearby companies The current system as described was hosed over by corporate collusion at places like Pixar to prevent people from being able to leverage themselves by wage-fixing positions on an industry-wide basis.
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Nov 13, 2016 11:00
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:personally I think the Communist!! stuff would not have been especially effective in this election, and he would have been a perfect foil to Trumps false populism, especially with the white rural midwesterners that decided this election, but refighting the primaries is dumb. The fact of the matter is the establishment dems were destroyed this election and the future of the democratic party is the Bernie progressive wing, for better or worse. The President-Elect is a serial sexual assaulter and probable rapist, and his supporters just chose not to believe in any of it. The effectiveness of any kind of "communist" smear campaign would depend on just how much the Democratic donor class would be willing to lose just to avoid even mild social democracy.
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Nov 13, 2016 11:03
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The party's old guard is just laying low until they can stage a comeback. They probably saw the total gong show that was the Blairites' attempted coup on Corbyn and thought "hmm, better to wait." (They also thought "lol")
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Nov 13, 2016 11:03
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The President-Elect is a serial sexual assaulter and probable rapist, and his supporters just chose not to believe in any of it. The effectiveness of any kind of "communist" smear campaign would depend on just how much the Democratic donor class would be willing to lose just to avoid even mild social democracy.
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Nov 13, 2016 11:05
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Samurai Sanders posted:Chose not to believe it? I don't think so. Based on what I have seen on Facebook and reported from friends, the stuff he said is completely mainstream and forgivable for many people to hear. Like he said it's how men are expected to talk when women aren't around. I'm sure it happens in a lot of places, but people are also full of poo poo. They're willing to say whatever it takes to rationalize something as not actually a bad thing. Kind of like how a particular group of people said Bernie was the choice of white racists, and now are saying he's too much of a Jew to have ever won. Picking Hillary couldn't have possibly been the wrong choice, she was failed, and also there's no proof of any kind of corruption and furthermore... I saw people rationalizing the Miss Teen USA peepshow story by saying that ephebophilia is actually good and natural, and that you're a fag if you're not physically attracted to teenagers. Fidel Castronaut posted:That's good and hopefully it can shape the tenor of democrats going forward because we really do need people to stop with the Lena Dunham type poo poo and have a "come to progressive Jesus" moment. I hope Lena Dunham never stops owning herself, because she discredits that hopelessly out of touch brand of ironic liberalism with every new pathetic stunt. Pener Kropoopkin has issued a correction as of 11:14 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 11:08
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mrmcd posted:Another thing we need to point out is that the reason our military got to the size it is and spending on it almost never goes down, is because a large bulk of it is basically just a government jobs program to employ people without much other prospects, either through arms manufacturing or enlistment benefits. This is objectively false. The US military is not only better educated, on whole, than the militaries of other countries, but also better educated than the general population of the USA.
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Nov 13, 2016 11:15
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:although considering how off the polls were, probably worth taking with a grain of salt I don't really buy that poll at all. Sanders didn't have three to four months of being turned into a nightmarish parody by rightwingers. Rewind back to 2008. Many, many "moderate" republicans spent the primaries basically saying "Oh hey, Obama's a reasonable alternative to Clinton, maybe I'd vote for him," and by October were screaming about Marxist Kenyan Muslims. Moderate republicans are like Jekyll and Hyde the moment the primary ends. Dick Milhous Rock! has issued a correction as of 11:31 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 11:25
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Yeah but Obama won despite the smears, twice, by overwhelming amounts. The Republican smear machine is not a guarantee of losing a presidential election.
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Nov 13, 2016 11:34
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Sun Wu Kampf posted:This is objectively false. The US military is not only better educated, on whole, than the militaries of other countries, but also better educated than the general population of the USA. He didn't say they were stupid, just that they had no prospects. If your prospects right out of high school is Walmart or McDonalds, or the military with regular pay and benefits, then going into the military isn't a bad choice. Why kid ourselves. The US got use to ware housing young adults in an army big enough to fight a two front world war. Recruiters always sell it to kids based of college tuition and job experience. The Marines are pretty much the only exception to that, in that they straight up just sell themselves as warriors.
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Nov 13, 2016 11:42
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Swan Oat posted:Yeah but Obama won despite the smears, twice, by overwhelming amounts. The Republican smear machine is not a guarantee of losing a presidential election. Look, Bernie Sanders is great, but Bernie Sanders was not campaign Obama. And we also didn't have a global economic crisis and Eric Cantor making the republicans look incompetent for two months.
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Nov 13, 2016 11:45
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Beowulfs_Ghost posted:He didn't say they were stupid, just that they had no prospects. Last I checked (and this was using something like 2010 numbers, I believe), because of the 2.5 GPA and high school diploma requirements, most of the enlisted military was middle income or higher by a slim margin. It sucks to be poor in America, because if you can't complete/are forced out/drop out of high school there are practically no real avenues out of the situation. That might still be a large percentage of middle income kids joining to escape taking undue tax burdens on their family or for themselves, though.
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Nov 13, 2016 11:48
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Dick Milhous Rock! posted:Look, Bernie Sanders is great, but Bernie Sanders was not campaign Obama. Obviously, instead all we had was a terrible campaign that lost an easily winnable election. Look, obviously Sanders isn't Obama. But if you had told me, a month ago, that Trump wouldn't even get as many votes as Romney got in 2012, I would have assumed that a world-historic rear end kicking. Instead, well, he won. Maybe Trump was just unbeatable. Maybe Sanders would have gotten his rear end kicked. But "the Republican smear machine!!!!!" is not a good argument when you look at the overwhelming margins a Kenyan Muslim socialist won, in two consecutive elections. Or, another way, the people who are susceptible to "Obama is a gay Muslim from Africa" and "Sanders is a terrifying jew commie" were never, ever going to vote for a Democrat anyway, and certainly not a thing to consider when choosing a candidate in the primaries.
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Nov 13, 2016 12:02
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Yeah, but both messages are effective in driving down turnout from disaffected people who don't do a lot of research before an election. Right wing messaging has always been about energizing their base while obfuscating issues to bystanders. It's been how they repeatedly get away with getting re-elected to "fix government" when a central premise of their system in the last decade is "driving government into a ditch." They count on people not knowing enough about the system to make informed choices, or getting frustrated and blaming everyone.
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Nov 13, 2016 12:06
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This is all thoroughly discredited wonk wisdom. It wasn't true in 2008, or 2012, and it sure as Hell wasn't true this year. The president-elect is a sex predator. He got there because they brought up the Clintons' past of sexual predation and discrediting their accusers, and in a lot of peoples' minds the math ended up cancelling out. This is all a willful exercise in ignoring the mountain of liabilities Clinton brought into this election, which were warned about well in advance - and ended up being a decisive factor, along with everything else.
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Nov 13, 2016 12:11
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Fidel Castronaut posted:We're going to have to like them up against the wall.
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Nov 13, 2016 12:13
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I don't disagree. With Hillary it was "she's in bad health, emails, FBI investigation, Benghazi, 1990s Clinton scandals", and I suppose it worked -- Trump won. The only argument I am making here is that "Sanders [or xyz candidate] would get crushed by the Republican smear machine, therefore unelectable" is weak, considering what Obama (and Bill, frankly) got, and won in spite of. e: actually wasn't "Obama is black so nobody will vote for him in the general" a Clinton argument from the 2008 primary?
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Nov 13, 2016 12:14
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Sun Wu Kampf posted:This is objectively false. The US military is not only better educated, on whole, than the militaries of other countries, but also better educated than the general population of the USA. lol I'm not one to hate on the military just because they get used for bad things but uh Considering I was in the military? It's the loving dregs of society for the most part. Technically speaking everyone is well educated on paper but even in the officer corps it's largely online diploma mill degrees because lol at getting an actual education while serving deployments or having to show up for retarded rear end formations on top of working 50 hours a week
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Nov 13, 2016 12:17
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Absolutely every single reason which was cited for why Hillary was more electable was wrong. She couldn't even get elected against Donald J. Trump. A wall to wall negative campaign utterly failed against Trump because Hillary's campaign utterly failed to communicate her agenda to the electorate, which left them with nothing else to judge her by than her past actions and those of her family. A past riddled with serious mistakes, sometimes outright malice - and full of poo poo that they hated. Trump couldn't even win the popular vote. The Republican turnout was depressed compared to 2012, but Democratic turnout was catastrophically depressed. Are we supposed to believe that somehow the Republican smear campaign had an outsized effect while the Democratic attacks had none? Maybe the difference is what people have actually testified, which is that they would rather pick Trump because he was selling them a message of positive change. He would make America great again! On the other hand, Hillary said that America is already great. So why the Hell would they want to vote for the latter? Or even - why bother voting at all? 87,810 voters in Michigan voted on the downballot races and left the president blank. That was decisive. quote:http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/11/michigans_presidential_electio.html Pener Kropoopkin has issued a correction as of 12:25 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 12:18
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Swan Oat posted:e: actually wasn't "Obama is black so nobody will vote for him in the general" a Clinton argument from the 2008 primary? unsurprisingly that was from a bunch of PUMA and His44 nutters that went for Romney and Trump!
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Nov 13, 2016 12:23
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it's almost as though arguments about electability due to Republican bullshit smears.... are not good.
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Nov 13, 2016 12:29
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Sorry I don't think that the Noise Machine isn't as ineffective as you believe?
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Nov 13, 2016 12:39
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That's fine, but there were also a mountain of liabilities and organizational failures which a certain other alternative candidate wouldn't have had. So even if we assume you're right, that's no reason to believe that this hypothetical alternative couldn't have won for other reasons.
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Nov 13, 2016 12:40
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:That's fine, but there were also a mountain of liabilities and organizational failures which a certain other alternative candidate wouldn't have had. So even if we assume you're right, that's no reason to believe that this hypothetical alternative couldn't have won for other reasons. Two days before the election a poll of 1800 voters had Bernie winning 55-46 over Trump. At the very least you would be running a anti-establishment progressive with high favorability rating and someone rated as being honest/trustworthy especially by independent voters.
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Nov 13, 2016 13:27
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 I posted this in the Trump thread but it may have been a problem that things tended be sometimes...not very organized
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Nov 13, 2016 13:34
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https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/episode-58-we-live-in-the-zone-now-111216
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Nov 13, 2016 13:41
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how about this: for whatever reason, hillary was a bad candidate. proof: she lost the election
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Nov 13, 2016 14:00
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWiSFwZJXwE no way this'll work
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Nov 13, 2016 14:01
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Larry Parrish posted:lol Yeah I wasn't really trying to start an argument about whether military people are smart or dumb. It's probably both, like most large organizations, but that's not the point. My point was to argue that the reason it's a political sacred cow that can never be cut in funding or reformed, even if it consumes our budget alive, is because all that money has to go somewhere. Most of it is grifted by politically connected contractors, but every factory cranking out non-functional F-35 parts is also providing jobs to an elected's constituents. Every base is providing jobs and income here at home, that a politician of either party will fight tooth and nail to keep from going away. Enlistment is pitched as a way for an 18 year old to get a job, education, and jumpstart a longer career. It's also largely not the children of salary class costal liberals taking that deal. So let's stop assuming there's no political appetite for a massive, government directed jobs, infrastructure, and career training program when there is. We just let the other side mask it in the rhetoric of patriotism and national security, while stealing most of the benefits for the investor class.
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Nov 13, 2016 14:10
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https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/797703341648318464
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Nov 13, 2016 14:12
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Need to get on that cloning technology.
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Nov 13, 2016 14:46
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docbeard posted:I doubt they care about the term 'progressivism' but they would probably enjoy 'hey we would actually like you to be able to take care of your families' a fair bit. This is the one saving grace, this is going to be pretty easy. Trump ran on one of the least nuanced sets of campaign promises in history: renegotiate NAFTA, bring back the steel and coal industries, build a giant loving wall and make Mexico pay for it, don't touch medicare, take millions of peoples' health insurance away. Billboards, ads, direct mailers, phone calls, asking where any of it is in 2018 is a huge step in the right direction and we know Trump isn't going to be able to deliver on any of that. If the republicans are dumb enough to follow through with their plan to privatize medicare, democrats best be hammering that, tie their faces to it, tie it around their neck so hard they'd drown to death in a kiddie pool. Everything about this situation is an opportunity to succeed.
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Nov 13, 2016 14:49
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Zythrst posted:Need to get on that cloning technology. Lot of conventional wisdom going around that he's leading Labour into a General Election defeat...
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Nov 13, 2016 14:49
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Lot of conventional wisdom going around that he's leading Labour into a General Election defeat... Conventional wisdom sure has made good predictions on everything from Brexit and Trump.
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Nov 13, 2016 14:51
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Lot of conventional wisdom going around that he's leading Labour into a General Election defeat... Doesn't stop me from wanting an army of Jezza clones.
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Nov 13, 2016 14:57
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etalian posted:Conventional wisdom sure has made good predictions on everything from Brexit and Trump. He's a silly old man, a dinosaur of a bygone era. The media hates him, his own party hates him...
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Nov 13, 2016 14:59
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:He's a silly old man, a dinosaur of a bygone era. The media hates him, his own party hates him... What, like Bernie?
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Nov 13, 2016 15:06
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Concordat posted:How do I find out who my DNC person is? http://www.glyphgryph.com/index.html everyone do this if you haven't . if you have do it again pathetic little tramp posted:This is the one saving grace, this is going to be pretty easy. yes but don't expect it to happen, make it happen
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Nov 13, 2016 15:17
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The idea that sanders appeal would disappear the second he faced concerted opposition is incredibly dumb when you look at the election in hindsight. Like, it might have been halfway believable during the primaries but now? we just saw a campaign where a trump was being outspent two to one and being smeared almost nonstop with new poo poo being dug up on him. The entire weight of the establishment was against him in a way that was truly breathtaking. First he's an idiot who thinks obama founded Isis, then he's a conman who swindled people with a fake university, then he's a tax cheat who hasn't paid anything for 20 years, then he's a serial rapist. Every talk show host was just straight up calling him a piece of poo poo every night. Robert de niro wanted to punch him in the face. And yet he still won thoroughly, because he was the only one acknowledging things were hosed and promising some kind of change. The only person who could have challenged him was Sanders, but instead the Dems bet everything on female Jeb! Digiwizzard has issued a correction as of 15:26 on Nov 13, 2016 |
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Nov 13, 2016 15:17
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Martout posted:What, like Bernie? Bernie isn't hated by democrats
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Nov 13, 2016 15:28
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Lot of conventional wisdom going around that he's leading Labour into a General Election defeat... let's hope the polls are wrong too
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Nov 13, 2016 15:32
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