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lol thats a comrade of mine that I know personally and 100% hes done more to build the labor and socialist movement here and internationally than anyone itt
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Mar 30, 2021 16:28
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i guess that explains the current state of the labor and socialist movement
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Mar 30, 2021 16:29
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GalacticAcid posted:i guess that explains the current state of the labor and socialist movement  lmao
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Mar 30, 2021 16:31
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I don’t see who Loudly Insisting China Is Doing Genocide benefits beside the US and its owners. happy to be wrong about this
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Mar 30, 2021 16:34
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twitter is a cancer
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Mar 30, 2021 16:39
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GalacticAcid posted:i guess that explains the current state of the labor and socialist movement lmao
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Mar 30, 2021 16:40
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indigi posted:I don’t see who Loudly Insisting China Is Doing Genocide benefits beside the US and its owners. happy to be wrong about this That's what you'd think but actually it's important to spend your limited time and energy attacking China
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Mar 30, 2021 16:42
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GalacticAcid posted:i guess that explains the current state of the labor and socialist movement
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Mar 30, 2021 16:42
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I wasn’t a socialist at the time since it was the very beginning of my political awareness and I was Just A Teen, but were like WWP/PSL etc constantly attacking Saddam and the Ba’ath Party in 2002-2003
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Mar 30, 2021 16:47
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apropos to nothing posted:lol thats a comrade of mine that I know personally and 100% hes done more to build the labor and socialist movement here and internationally than anyone itt Yikes dude. This guy is making GBS threads on both China and some of the only few anti imperialist journalists, and you think he's a shining example of socialist international building? What the gently caress
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Mar 30, 2021 16:47
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Internationalist Marxism with American characteristics: bomb and sanction non-americans
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Mar 30, 2021 16:50
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its almost like when you have comrades and contacts in the chinese labor movement you have to integrate their perspectives into your understanding of chinese politics
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Mar 30, 2021 16:52
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just the most vulgar kind of anti-imperialism. reminds me of all the people who refused to sign a local petition we were using to protect undocumented people because "you dont support assad" and then when the US starts dropping bombs and were rushing to organize mass demonstrations against the war theyre nowhere to be found.
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Mar 30, 2021 16:55
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indigi posted:I don’t see who Loudly Insisting China Is Doing Genocide benefits beside the US and its owners. happy to be wrong about this ive heard the hot take that socialists need to accept some western propaganda as fact or at least appear to, in the name of outreach and the project of converting liberals, because said liberals have so internalized it that if they hear something like "maybe there's reason to doubt what the New York Time says about what's going on in Xinjiang" they will instinctively call you a tankie and whoops there goes one more potential dues paying member of the DSA
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Mar 30, 2021 16:56
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if there is one thing the socialist movement needs less of, it’s liberals inside the movement
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Mar 30, 2021 16:57
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It's very amusing how the term tankie went from being a very fringe thing on the internet to daily vernacular.
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Mar 30, 2021 17:00
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apropos to nothing posted:just the most vulgar kind of anti-imperialism. reminds me of all the people who refused to sign a local petition we were using to protect undocumented people because "you dont support assad" and then when the US starts dropping bombs and were rushing to organize mass demonstrations against the war theyre nowhere to be found. well do you support assad?
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Mar 30, 2021 17:01
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indigi posted:socialists in general are really loving stupid it seems. I’m reading more about the run up to WWI and every country’s socialists were like “hell yeah let’s get this war in” for the most part this bears some modification - after jean jaures got murdered, there was nobody really left with the chops to seriously make the case for antimilitarism to the mainstream socialists - war fervour was strong, so protesting was not really something most representatives much wanted to do except for hardliners like lenin, liebknecht and luxemburg. even kautsky famously ended up endorsing the war on incredibly specious grounds before going fully renegade. the issue with this is that it takes extreme levels of trust in your foreign comrades and their ability to organise, which was realistically always going to be a primarily franco-german matter. with revanchism a very strong force in france and the loss of the guy most likely to be able to make the case, the political calculus changes a lot. not that this cowardice is anything but criminal, of course; the zimmerwald left was absolutely right to break with the second international over that bullshit
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Mar 30, 2021 17:02
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AnimeIsTrash posted:It's very amusing how the term tankie went from being a very fringe thing on the internet to daily vernacular. it's still a fringe internet thing, we've just gone deeper into the fringe
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Mar 30, 2021 17:05
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the most vulgar kind of anti-imperialism
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Mar 30, 2021 17:07
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its totally alien to genuine marxism. china is an imperialist power, if you disagree with that assessment then you disagree and its a separate argument but not sure how current events and the last 30+ years could give anyone any indication otherwise. the us is also an imperialist power. socialists oppose any kind of imperialist war, something that both the us and chinese state are increasingly stirring up nationalism and patriotism around. but the solution is not to back one imperialist power over another, the solution is to organize the international working class to resist imperialist war. revolutionary defeatism doesnt mean the russian socialists work to undermine the russian war effort so germany can win, they undermine the russian war effort with the understanding that their comrades in germany will do the same and convince the german workers to oppose the war in the same way the russians do. if youre worried about the us state department ginning up for war with china, you should be equally concerned about how the chinese state is doing the exact same thing, because the only way to prevent a war or even cold war is to organize the workers of both countries to resist. and that means that you cant present a separate message to workers in one country and a different one in another, it means an international program that recognizes the reality for all workers. you disagree with that analysis? thats fine, maybe youre right. i would encourage you to build actual links with cothinkers in china and everywhere else in the world. not media figures or journalists whose takes you passively engage with but actual comrades and cothinkers who you can discuss and debate issues with under a shared understanding of mutual goals. anyway, gently caress the mods and most of the posters, free larry, et.al.
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Mar 30, 2021 17:16
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apropos to nothing posted:lol thats a comrade of mine that I know personally and 100% hes done more to build the labor and socialist movement here and internationally than anyone itt what do you think was said in the podcast?because it’s nothing outside of what is reasonably said in this forum, certainly not bad enough to accuse them of being anti-internationalist or not having solidarity. tbh accusing the moderate rebels guys of not being internationalists Especially considering their work in latin america - they are hardly ever in the loving united states - is pretty loving dogshit. they have done really incredible on-the-ground work in honduras, bolivia, el salvador, equador, and venezuela - on the level of their lives being in danger, stalked, harassed, and continually threatened. when they were in bolivia they were targeted in conservative media as outside agitators and followed wherever they went, through airports, etc all for their reporting on the coup. your comrade is being very lovely here with what he’s implying
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Mar 30, 2021 17:16
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honestly itd be funny if not sad cause the kind of defense of china that a lot of people on the left make and holding it up as some kind of model is exactly the same mistake many anti-ccp chinese liberals and leftists make which is to hold up the us and defend it as a counter to the ccp. its the exact same mistake. if you want to genuinely oppose imperialism it means building the international labor movement, not trying to turn the people around you away from supporting their home grown imperialism to supporting foreign imperialism.
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Mar 30, 2021 17:21
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i oppose imperialism primarily in my own country, which is also the only world hegemon, and the top military aggressor and killer in the world, much more than china. sorry. i dont see the equivalence. and again. very lovely to imply that the grayzone guys arent internationalists in light of their immensely brave work im sure chinese leftists have a lot to fight in their own country but im not going to go out of my way to emphasize the defects of chinese communism as an american in a period of rapidly increasing tensions with china. im not talking to or influencing chinese people on this subject
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Mar 30, 2021 17:26
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apropos to nothing posted:honestly itd be funny if not sad cause the kind of defense of china that a lot of people on the left make and holding it up as some kind of model is exactly the same mistake many anti-ccp chinese liberals and leftists make which is to hold up the us and defend it as a counter to the ccp. its the exact same mistake. if you want to genuinely oppose imperialism it means building the international labor movement, not trying to turn the people around you away from supporting their home grown imperialism to supporting foreign imperialism. If you are a very exploited country in the global south with no real infrastructure, how do you develop yourself into a nation without what is considered state capitalism?
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Mar 30, 2021 17:33
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I oppose Western and Western-aligned media saying things about China that aren't true because it is luring my countrymen into falling into right-wing Sinophobia as a counter to Duterte's perceived subservience to China. If Filipinos are lured into voting for a troop just because he makes the right noises about fighting Duterte and "Xi Jin Pooh", which paves the way for an even closer relationship with the US and their millions of dollars in arms going to our police and military, that's going to result in more of my comrades getting killed in anti-communist crusades. I am loving sick and tired of the libs wishing the Philippines could join the "Milk Tea Alliance"
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Mar 30, 2021 17:41
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AnimeIsTrash posted:If you are a very exploited country in the global south with no real infrastructure, how do you develop yourself into a nation without what is considered state capitalism? seems to not have been a problem for Thomas Sankara
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Mar 30, 2021 17:49
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apropos to nothing posted:socialists oppose any kind of imperialist war, I want take up a fine-toothed comb with this particular statement, as I feel it's speaking to a more global understanding of socialist and not the kind here in the US who feel the sullen grief of having to protect themselves against the big bads
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Mar 30, 2021 17:52
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apropos to nothing posted:its totally alien to genuine marxism. china is an imperialist power, if you disagree with that assessment then you disagree and its a separate argument but not sure how current events and the last 30+ years could give anyone any indication otherwise. the us is also an imperialist power. socialists oppose any kind of imperialist war, something that both the us and chinese state are increasingly stirring up nationalism and patriotism around. but the solution is not to back one imperialist power over another, the solution is to organize the international working class to resist imperialist war. revolutionary defeatism doesnt mean the russian socialists work to undermine the russian war effort so germany can win, they undermine the russian war effort with the understanding that their comrades in germany will do the same and convince the german workers to oppose the war in the same way the russians do. if youre worried about the us state department ginning up for war with china, you should be equally concerned about how the chinese state is doing the exact same thing, because the only way to prevent a war or even cold war is to organize the workers of both countries to resist. and that means that you cant present a separate message to workers in one country and a different one in another, it means an international program that recognizes the reality for all workers. socialists don't exist outside space and time, and acting as if you're disconnected from your material conditions doesn't seem internationalism as much as an excuse to ignore the obligations of your own subjectivity
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Mar 30, 2021 17:59
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Centrist Committee posted:socialists don't exist outside space and time, and acting as if you're disconnected from your material conditions doesn't seem internationalism as much as an excuse to ignore the obligations of your own subjectivity theorybrain
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Mar 30, 2021 18:11
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socialism is a cia op
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Mar 30, 2021 18:14
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apropos to nothing posted:but the solution is not to back one imperialist power over another I don’t think questioning the dominant imperial narrative that a genocide is happening (that even US State Department lawyers disagree with) is “supporting” China in any real sense, I definitely think they are loving up bigly in several areas and agree that it’s important to have solidarity with Chinese workers. I just don’t see how banging the genocide drum does that, like at all
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Mar 30, 2021 18:25
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Victory Position posted:seems to not have been a problem for Thomas Sankara Well until he got shot
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Mar 30, 2021 18:29
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Dreddout posted:Well until he got shot he’d have been shot even if he did Some Capitalism
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Mar 30, 2021 18:30
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apropos to nothing posted:lol thats a comrade of mine that I know personally and 100% hes done more to build the labor and socialist movement here and internationally than anyone itt k, relevant tangent gently caress that bullshit apropos, "this guy did more than anyone else" yeah never did see him around here when I was cleaning latrines for rural occupations, neither I was there helping with whatever he does if we are going to do serious critique, one of the first things to assume is that everyone puts in what they can and what they are able, calling out others like that is a subversion of solidarity this is an aside from your considerations of China (because I do agree with a couple of point of yours) that I felt worth having because redder-than-thou idiocy never leads anything forward
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Mar 30, 2021 18:47
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apropos to nothing posted:just the most vulgar kind of anti-imperialism. reminds me of all the people who refused to sign a local petition we were using to protect undocumented people because "you dont support assad" and then when the US starts dropping bombs and were rushing to organize mass demonstrations against the war theyre nowhere to be found. lol how many people in the general public said that. it can't be more than ten. If it was an org then just ignore them. if they refuse to engage in basic stuff like defending the undocumented, which is something socialists can even work with liberal sickos on, then they're not worth building a coalition with. unless you guys joined one of the ISO's "Assad's Hands off Syria" demos that was happening a few years ago, in which case this weird scenario makes more sense. that's the only thing I can see reasonable people holding a grudge over.
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Mar 30, 2021 19:33
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being skeptical of adrian zenz doesnt mean you support chinese imperialism lmao
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Mar 30, 2021 19:36
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is someone not allowed to do this because it doesnt show anti-imperialist worker solidarity??? (this is the byline of the max blumenthal thing being discussed)
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Mar 30, 2021 19:39
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like if i could summon an analogy, being skeptical of colin powell's wmd claims of iraq does not mean you support iraqi imperialism and it doesnt even necessarily mean you believe iraq conclusively does not have a wmd program or has not used wmds in atrocities in the past
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Mar 30, 2021 19:48
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AnimeIsTrash posted:socialism is a cia op https://twitter.com/bronzeagemantis/status/1376360726177144840?s=19
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Mar 30, 2021 20:09
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