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Snowman_McK posted:Actually, no. The ones who definitely did is absolutely a cliche. Less so, but still pretty cliche. Prometheus took something mysterious and made it tedious.
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Dec 28, 2016 03:57
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SUNKOS posted:I pointed out that Shaw doesn't reference any grand design, and instead merely says "We were so wrong" which as SMG pointed out is in the trailer, at 1:45. Shaw's basic belief is that she was put on Earth for a purpose, and that she is now being invited up to meet God and learn what her purpose is. She interprets the star-map paintings as an invitation to join God up in heaven. She was - and you were - "so wrong" because the message was not an invitation. It is now up to you to read all the evidence in the film and interpret the truth behind of the paintings. I can tell you the answer - that the paintings are 'meaningless' displays of pure power, that the engineers are simply pointing to their origin as proof of their superior technology, intelligence, etc. - but telling you the truth is not enough for you to believe it. You need to go through the process on your own. You need to be able to interpret. When we interpret the opening scene, the truth is that the poor alien dude is sacrificing himself to his god. Implicitly, this scene takes place on the engineer 'homeworld'. He looks up at the weird black disc and has absolutely no idea what it wants. So he makes a guess, and offers his life. We can conclude that the engineers created life on Earth out of this vague conviction that they were 'supposed to'. The mysteries of the engineers were a mystery to the engineers themselves. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 03:57
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I look back at Aliens pretty fondly because it was one of my favorites when I was little, but it's a pretty stupid movie to be honest. I'd definitely rank Prometheus behind Alien and ahead of Aliens. (It's funny to hear people complain about how dumb the Prometheus characters are when the characters in Aliens are undeniably dumber.) If you don't like Prometheus, I can't imagine what kind of hold the series has on you at this point. Alien is of course amazing, but Aliens is only good in a nostalgic sense and Alien3 is too messy to be good, while A:R can be forgotten about entirely.
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Dec 28, 2016 04:02
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Shaw's basic belief is that she was put on Earth for a purpose, and that she is now being invited up to meet God and learn what her purpose is. She interprets the star-map paintings as an invitation to join God up in heaven. It's not that the interpretation is complicated or hard to understand, it's that it's boring.
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Dec 28, 2016 05:44
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IMB posted:I look back at Aliens pretty fondly because it was one of my favorites when I was little, but it's a pretty stupid movie to be honest. I'd definitely rank Prometheus behind Alien and ahead of Aliens. (It's funny to hear people complain about how dumb the Prometheus characters are when the characters in Aliens are undeniably dumber.) Nah it's cool, I've known plenty of people who didn't like 'Aliens', although the reason I've heard cited most often is that it dumbs down the Aliens, not the humans. I disagree, but I understand where they're coming from (and it's a mentality that permeated the comics and video games for a very long time). Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 05:45
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IMB posted:(It's funny to hear people complain about how dumb the Prometheus characters are when the characters in Aliens are undeniably dumber.) This is pretty true. Gorman is of course incompetent but there's also more than one instance where the trained ultimate badasses get dominated simply because they only look forward instead of up/down/behind them. Xenomrph posted:I think you're going to have to elaborate on how the people in 'Aliens' were dumb. Also 'Aliens' isn't "only good in a nostalgic sense" and I will cut you. C'mon man you can't question this when Aliens has Lieutenant Gorman in it.  Aliens is an awesome movie, beyond nostalgia value for me, but one could definitely say it hasn't aged as well as Alien because the way the movie works has had a massive and constant to the present day influence on pop culture since the year it came out. But that doesn't invalidate what it accomplished for its time and doesn't magically make it a not good movie. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 05:51
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I'm not saying I don't like it, I'm watching it right now and enjoying it like I always do. And it certainly has had more lasting impact than any recent sci-fi movie. But parts of it are just bad in ways I can't get past. It's interesting seeing people complain about the deacon alien from Prometheus looking CGI, thus bad, when Ripley smashed through a space installation in a vehicle made out of cardboard.
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Dec 28, 2016 06:03
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Neo Rasa posted:This is pretty true. Gorman is of course incompetent but there's also more than one instance where the trained ultimate badasses get dominated simply because they only look forward instead of up/down/behind them. 
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Dec 28, 2016 06:04
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Xenomrph posted:I'd say Gorman's stupidity was intentional - he's a rookie lieutenant with no practical experience who intentionally distances himself from those under his command and he totally falls apart under pressure, it'd be weird if he didn't do dumb poo poo. The same is true in Prometheus, people only complain about how it happened in that movie because we hold new movies to a higher standard.
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Dec 28, 2016 06:05
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If only they had some kind of motion tracker device in Prometheus. And then the aliens had some kind of cloaking pheromone that masked their movement----then it would be a failure of technology, not people, that causes things to go awry at the start of the second act. We could rest assured that every reasonable precaution was taken, but the heroes' devices had been defeated.
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Dec 28, 2016 06:10
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also nerds are more willing to accept stupidity when its lowly jock soldiers instead of scientists, who are clearly supposed to be the most elevated class of people
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Dec 28, 2016 06:15
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IMB posted:The same is true in Prometheus, people only complain about how it happened in that movie because we hold new movies to a higher standard. When Gorman does dumb poo poo, it's telegraphed beforehand as to how out of his depth he's supposed to be, and his stupidity doesn't get him killed (that'd be a cliche). He also learns from his mistakes, grows as a character, earns the respect of those around him, and goes out like a badass. In 'Prometheus', when the characters do dumb poo poo, it's by supposed "experts" who you'd think would know better (or at least acknowledge their own limitations) and a lot of the stuff often complained about as being "stupid" could have been made less so with more attentive writing. The scientist who is literally doing the mapping with floating map-drones is the one who gets lost. Him getting lost isn't the problem, it's that he doesn't even acknowledge having the map that he himself was creating. It'd have been trivially easy to fix with 2 lines of dialogue: MILBURN: We're lost? What about your mapping drones? FIFELD: All their data is stored remotely on the Prometheus, I can't get a signal in here because of the storm! That was off the top of my head. Gorman being unqualified is the point of his character, and it's what gets half the Marines killed in the hatchery and thins out the cast. However it's handled in a way that's realistic and understandable by the audience, and the other characters acknowledge his stupidity (Vasquez threatens to kill Gorman). Prometheus edges just over that line of being believable because of a combination of factors. If the characters had done dumb redshirt-caliber stuff without being specifically pointed out as being genius experts, it wouldn't have seemed so weird. Or if any of the characters had shown more incredulity when other people did dumb or questionable stuff (such as in 'Alien' when Ripley calls Ash out for breaking quarantine and letting Kane onto the ship), that respects the audience's intelligence and shows that the stupidity is meant to be an intentional character trait that serves a purpose in the story, rather than the scriptwriter being an idiot and writing stupid stuff (and then assuming the audience is too dumb to notice). And for the record, I like 'Prometheus'. But I totally get the complaints people have about it. Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:also nerds are more willing to accept stupidity when its lowly jock soldiers instead of scientists, who are clearly supposed to be the most elevated class of people You have a point though, but I'm not sure I agree with it 100%. Audience members hold certain character archetypes to unrealistic standards, but that's because of the language of film that's been communicated in movies for decades. Scientists are universally smart about everything, any sports person is automatically athletic and capable of anything physical, lawyers know every and all types of law known to man, pilots can fly literally any plane/helicopter/spaceship without question, etc. There's something to be said about undermining those tropes, but first it helps to acknowledge that they exist. Xenomrph fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Dec 28, 2016 |
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Dec 28, 2016 06:23
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The impenetrable suits that were actually penetrable. And getting high while waiting out the storm to try and relax.
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Dec 28, 2016 06:24
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we know the characters in Aliens are dumb because the movie tells us "look at these dumb cocky idiots" from the second they appear. In Prometheus, we're meant to think the characters are smart, but we learn through watching the movie that they're actually dumb. And somehow this is worse?
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Dec 28, 2016 06:30
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a foolish pianist posted:It's not that the interpretation is complicated or hard to understand, it's that it's boring. Be it lethargy or stupidity, your personal failings are not my concern. Only your errors.
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Dec 28, 2016 06:33
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IMB posted:we know the characters in Aliens are dumb because the movie tells us "look at these dumb cocky idiots" from the second they appear. In Prometheus, we're meant to think the characters are smart, but we learn through watching the movie that they're actually dumb. And somehow this is worse?
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Dec 28, 2016 06:41
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A squad of marines employed specifically to fight unknown alien threats wear short-sleeved shirts into battle with their faces uncovered, even after being informed that the targets exude an unknown and dangerous chemical. If you want to talk immersion into tactical simulation, Aliens may be one of the worst films ever made. As an alternative, you could immerse yourself into boiling acid.
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Dec 28, 2016 07:06
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:also nerds are more willing to accept stupidity when its lowly jock soldiers instead of scientists, who are clearly supposed to be the most elevated class of people People that wear lab coats will act smarter. http://www.everydayhealth.com/emotional-health/0405/could-wearing-a-lab-coat-make-you-smarter.aspx They forgot their coats!
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Dec 28, 2016 07:11
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Be it lethargy or stupidity, your personal failings are not my concern. Only your errors. Hardly a personal failing, just an unwillingness to confuse intentionally-abstruse sophistry for quality.
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Dec 28, 2016 07:19
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a foolish pianist posted:Hardly a personal failing, just an unwillingness to confuse intentionally-abstruse sophistry for quality. You were just saying that you had no difficulty understanding what I wrote. Now you are complaining that my post was difficult to understand. Which is it.
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Dec 28, 2016 07:26
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SA Alien threads always have the best name calling.
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Dec 28, 2016 07:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You were just saying that you had no difficulty understanding what I wrote. The fact that its intentionally abstruse in no way implies I had trouble understanding it. Like I said, you can justify the film all you want, but the direction Prometheus took was a boring and tedious waste of an interesting property.
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Dec 28, 2016 07:29
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Xenomrph posted:MILBURN: We're lost? What about your mapping drones? They literally show this. You're asking for a line of dialogue that tells us something we are explicitly shown as if it were a radio play.
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Dec 28, 2016 07:36
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Powerful movie execs: ok Damon it's been 6 months since we hired you to answer one of cinemas greatest mysteries. A query that has gnawed at America for thirty years and wanted nay needed nay demanded satisfaxtion. Tell us, what is the origin of the Space Jockey? (Damon, dressed in sweat pants and a t shirt that says spit or swallow, remains silent a couple seconds then makes some popping noises with his mouth. Scratches his balls. Exhales loudly and scratches the back of his head. He purses his lips together and then blows air through them causing his lips to flap wildly. He farts loudly several times and laughs after each emission) Damon: Um ok. Let's see. How....about (Execs all lean forward expectantly) Damon: it's......a...........really..............big.........(his brow creases and his eyes narrow obviously deep in thought) (Close up of beads of sweat on execs foreheads) Damon:..........guy? (Thunderous applause and Prometheus begins filming 45 minutes later) E: I'm just having fun fellas. I've seen Prometheus at least 5 times and always enjoy watching it
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Dec 28, 2016 07:41
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a foolish pianist posted:The fact that its intentionally abstruse in no way implies I had trouble understanding it. That's actually the definition of the word.
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Dec 28, 2016 07:42
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Prometheus was an interesting and exciting use of the property.
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Dec 28, 2016 07:43
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's actually the definition of the word. Not exactly - intensional abstruseness does not imply success at abstruseness, particularly for all audiences.
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Dec 28, 2016 07:59
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a foolish pianist posted:Not exactly - intensional [sic] abstruseness does not imply success at abstruseness, particularly for all audiences. That's actually exactly what it means. If something is not 'successfully' difficult to understand, then it is... not difficult to understand. What you are expressing is a belief that I have secret intentions against you - a belief that I am using words to trick you, but in a way that you cannot articulate. For another example, you use 'boring' and 'fallacious' interchangeably.
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Dec 28, 2016 08:36
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I'm pretty sure I got the idea that the characters in Prometheus may be in over their heads right about when they sat down to find out what they came for and watched an episode of Ancient Aliens. Then one of them, a grown professional, felt the need to say that he's too edgy as gently caress to make friends.
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Dec 28, 2016 08:46
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Fifeld is great though, because they basically accidentally hired a Shadowrunner. Not a good one, though; no good runner would take a corp job into outer space with an unknown goal or destination.
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Dec 28, 2016 08:59
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a foolish pianist posted:The fact that its intentionally abstruse in no way implies I had trouble understanding it. No, it wasn't.
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Dec 28, 2016 09:03
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Hodgepodge posted:Fifeld is great though, because they basically accidentally hired a Shadowrunner. Not a good one, though; no good runner would take a corp job into outer space with an unknown goal or destination. I thought there was alot of random anger and robo-hatred.
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Dec 28, 2016 09:18
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a foolish pianist posted:The trouble is exactly this. It's like if in the Mountains of Madness had a sequel that was just the sentence "Never mind, they were just antarctic dudes." At the Mountains of Madness is a slow and pandering story about how scientists find some dead aliens, dissect them and describe each little detail, and then decipher their language to learn about their downfall. They literally were just "antarctic dudes", the horror of the story is Lovecraft's fear that the mighty white people will fall into decadence and minorities will rise up and kill them. Cthulhu is a mad god that would allow this to happen. Prometheus is honestly the best adaptation of that mess one could hope for.
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Dec 28, 2016 09:29
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wyoming posted:At the Mountains of Madness is a slow and pandering story about how scientists find some dead aliens, dissect them and describe each little detail, and then decipher their language to learn about their downfall. The revelation that all humans were created as slaves was also not a happy one for an early 20th Century racist.
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Dec 28, 2016 09:37
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wyoming posted:At the Mountains of Madness is a slow and pandering story about how scientists find some dead aliens, dissect them and describe each little detail, and then decipher their language to learn about their downfall. The misinterpretation of this story is possibly the strangest thing about the last few pages. The crinoids really are explained in thorough detail. As a contrast, the saucer-god at the start of Prometheus is given even less explanation than 2001's monolith.
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Dec 28, 2016 09:42
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Lovecraft's whole shtick is that his protagonists end up knowing too much.
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Dec 28, 2016 10:46
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At the Mountains of Madness of one of those stories that people like to reference and a lot of them haven't actually read it. For all of Lovecraft's flaws as a writer, I have to say that reading At the Mountains of Madness in an isolated cabin in the woods was a really memorable experience. The combination of how hosed those guys obviously were with the curiosity of every new little tidbit they'd find out made for a very compelling and tense read. It should be a thread project, everyone read(or reread) At the Mountains of Madness.
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Dec 28, 2016 15:17
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Xenomrph posted:I'm just saying there were better ways to communicate it. With 'Aliens' the dumb characters are dumb for a reason that's made clear to the audience, with 'Prometheus' it just feels like bad writing (or worse, a deception of the audience) that breaks the audience's immersion because of their preconceptions based on what they've been shown. Those preconceptions might actually be unrealistic in the real world, but they weren't formed in a vacuum. Like yeah you can argue that the movie's message is "sometimes smart people do dumb stuff", but it feels really trite and shallow in the face of the other, more interesting messages the movie is conveying. Not to mention a huge part of "the hubris of smart people" arc is the realization and learning that comes with it even if they might die anyway - Gorman (and Burke) did it, Victor Frankenstein (arguably the progenitor of the trope) did it, John Hammond did it in 'Jurassic Park', etc. If you want to argue that destroying an audiences pre-conceived notions is a bad thing, be my guest. I imagine you'll be on that island alone.
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Dec 28, 2016 15:38
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Like the entire movie is one scene after another of different characters screaming "noooo, my hubris!" before being offed in various ways. Somewhere around the midpoint the movie stops to show us cctv footage of "the gods" getting their poo poo pushed in by a tool of their own making, but how did the guy with the mapping device get lost? Nobody would have tried to touch that snake. Bad writing.
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Dec 28, 2016 15:48
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IMB posted:If you want to argue that destroying an audiences pre-conceived notions is a bad thing, be my guest. I imagine you'll be on that island alone.
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Dec 28, 2016 15:51
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