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Only thing behind that door is a goat.
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Oct 5, 2020 20:55
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Phanatic posted:Only thing behind that door is a goat. Great, now I'm going to be disappointed if Serini didn't throw in a Monty Hall joke somewhere in all of this.
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Oct 5, 2020 20:56
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Ooh, what if the biggest nastiest poo poo is the MitD's family? That'd be a twist! That would be awesome. And a return of OOTS's favorite theme, "bad dads"!
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Oct 5, 2020 21:04
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This is 1000% when they realize that the MitD has been painting doors they haven't cleared. They will argue about whether or not it repopulated for a while before Redcloak will come up with a reason why it couldn't have, and they will either discipline the monster assuming it was just dumb or realize that it can't be trusted and get rid of it. It might use its "escape" power again to avoid being killed and join up with the good guys, eventually. This is probably not where they have their climactic showdown with Xykon because too much is still unresolved. However, whether this is where Xykon finds the gate, or he finds it later on, he will use his possession of it to threaten the protagonists, only for them to point out that the gate is no actual threat to them since Redcloak is just planning to teleport it to another plane as a bargaining chip for his god. Then Xykon will turn on Redcloak, realizing he was being used all along, at the least opportune time for the both of them. This is, of course, assuming that Rich goes with the obvious story resolution, and doesn't pull something out of his hat to avoid being predictable. Cup Runneth Over fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Oct 5, 2020 |
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Oct 5, 2020 21:35
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Cup Runneth Over posted:This is 1000% when they realize that the MitD has been painting doors they haven't cleared. They will argue about whether or not it repopulated for a while before Redcloak will come up with a reason why it couldn't have, and they will either discipline the monster assuming it was just dumb or realize that it can't be trusted and get rid of it. It might use its "escape" power again to avoid being killed and join up with the good guys, eventually. This is probably not where they have their climactic showdown with Xykon because too much is still unresolved. However, whether this is where Xykon finds the gate, or he finds it later on, he will use his possession of it to threaten the protagonists, only for them to point out that the gate is no actual threat to them since Redcloak is just planning to teleport it to another plane as a bargaining chip for his god. Then Xykon will turn on Redcloak, realizing he was being used all along, at the least opportune time for the both of them. This resolution neglects the role of the IFCC.
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Oct 5, 2020 21:51
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I don't think the Order fighting Team Evil is going to be the climax of the story at all. I'd bet the fight happens before the midpoint of the book. If Roy and co. are still around and there are indeed nasty monsters about to jump Team Evil, it might even be the very next sequence. There certainly needs to be an explanation for why the Order doesn't leap to action if their element of surprise has been blown and the villains have just expended a bunch of resources fighting something else.HisMajestyBOB posted:That would be awesome. And a return of OOTS's favorite theme, "bad dads"! Not unlikely, but he doesn't have to be a bad dad. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Oct 5, 2020 |
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Oct 5, 2020 21:54
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SKULL.GIF posted:This resolution neglects the role of the IFCC. Also Ochul and friend and their captors.
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Oct 5, 2020 21:59
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I wonder if Xykon and Redcloak both have contingency plans for the Monster in the Darkness or if he's just beneath the notice of their schemes.
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Oct 5, 2020 22:22
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Phanatic posted:Only thing behind that door is a goat. I don't know, man. I mean Xykon, Oona and Redcloak are a pretty powerful team and all, but putting them against Wayne Gretzky with no forewarning... that'd be a bit of an anticlimax to end the main villains on, after all these years.
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Oct 6, 2020 01:30
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Looking forward to the Order running into MitD when they enter the Bugbear village looking for Durkon and Minrah
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Oct 6, 2020 01:46
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We have Team Evil entering a "cleared" dungeon with minimal buffing and limited support after Redcloak has already blown a bunch of spells fighting Durkon. It would be interesting if Xykon was destroyed here, and Redcloak forced to escape in a way that prevented him from getting to the real phylactery. This would be an excellent payoff to the MiTD storyline (particularly since O'Chul didn't expect the fake door markings to make a lot of difference, so there's some dramatic irony involved), and Redcloak needs that kind of shock to get out of his sunk-cost fallacy.
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Oct 6, 2020 01:59
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I was reading the reddit as I was googling where did Xykon's soul hidey thing end up (I was wondering if Redcloak hid it on screen or if he just keeps it in a bag of holding as I think was implied) and a few possibilities occurred to me: 1. It is entirely possible they won't suspect the MitD at all. Think about it. The only pertinent fact they will immediately learn is that someone has been marking X's on the doors. What if they instead of suspecting a member of Team Evil, after all, to either of them why would they suspect the MitD? The only reason is the MitD advocating they leave the Pyramid immediately for arguably valid dangerously genre savvy "Evil Overlord List" reasons. Instead, I think it's just as easily likely they suspect that perhaps Durkon and Roy's party has actually been here for a long time, carefully observing them and marking unopened doors while they're busy inside the canyon and only "now" for some reason (ironically this is actually true even! Just not for Roy's team but for the mysterious invisible people and the paladins!), did Durkon decide to come out to meet Redcloak. This potentially opens a whole host of red herrings for Redcloak to chase down; he might suspect Durkon more perhaps if he thinks Durkon has been around for a while and all of this is part of some dastardly dwarf scheme. 2. What if the dungeons are misdirection and the actual gate is below the stone canyon? Deep enough perhaps for only a Dwarf to realize something is amiss?
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Oct 6, 2020 02:15
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Raenir Salazar posted:2. What if the dungeons are misdirection and the actual gate is below the stone canyon? Deep enough perhaps for only a Dwarf to realize something is amiss? I've been thinking this for awhile now. I mean, yes, that's sort of what the Draketooths did, but Serini is/was a rogue and there's no particularly good reason for her to play "Guess the Door" at all fairly.
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Oct 6, 2020 02:20
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Of course it's a shell game. Of course the gate isn't in any of the dungeon doors. What's baffling to me is that Team Evil doesn't realize this immediately, after they pulled the exact same con back in Azure City with the fake Xykons. Where the gate actually is, I don't think we have any real information on, but the one place I guarantee it isn't is behind one of those doors.
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Oct 6, 2020 03:02
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The trick to the dungeon is that there is no trick, just enough hints that there is a trick that big brained people will waste all their time trying to solve a puzzle when they need to get swole and beat the monsters.
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Oct 6, 2020 03:29
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DontMockMySmock posted:Of course it's a shell game. Of course the gate isn't in any of the dungeon doors. What's baffling to me is that Team Evil doesn't realize this immediately, after they pulled the exact same con back in Azure City with the fake Xykons. They've been using Serini's diary which told them exactly where all the other gates were. They knew it was the gem on the Azure City throne. They were able to teleport directly to Gerard's gate. I agree they ought to be suspicious that the instructions are less clear here, but I think they've become convinced that they have the inside track on gate locations.
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Oct 6, 2020 03:42
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DontMockMySmock posted:Of course it's a shell game. Of course the gate isn't in any of the dungeon doors. What's baffling to me is that Team Evil doesn't realize this immediately, after they pulled the exact same con back in Azure City with the fake Xykons. They figure they've got all the time in the world, and the first course of action even if you know it's not in any of the doors is still probably going to be clear them out and see where that gets you/what information you can find.
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Oct 6, 2020 03:49
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This could be a big opportunity for Roy and team. These dungeons are hard enough to give Team Xykon a real challenge, and Redcloak is going to burn that many more spells keeping his unbuffed teammates alive when they're surprised by an unexpected monster. Meanwhile, the two dwarf clerics can now inform the Order about Oona, whose unconventional abilities have posed a major threat despite not being magic-based, so they can account for her in their plans.
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Oct 6, 2020 04:55
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Mniot posted:They've been using Serini's diary which told them exactly where all the other gates were. They knew it was the gem on the Azure City throne. They were able to teleport directly to Gerard's gate. I agree they ought to be suspicious that the instructions are less clear here, but I think they've become convinced that they have the inside track on gate locations. They didn't know Soon's gate was in the throne room, Xykon had to scry on Miko to get that bit of info.
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Oct 6, 2020 06:53
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I don't see why it's obvious or even reasonable to assume the Gate isn't behind one of the doors. It's entirely possible there's a deeper layer to it and just killing poo poo isn't enough to find it, but if it is behind a door, you have to fight at least one epic-CR encounter, and statistically hundreds of them, and potentially out whatever the trick is. If it's nowhere near a door, you only need to figure out the trick and can get away with fighting nothing. One of these options is a better defense.
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Oct 6, 2020 07:43
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Phanatic posted:Only thing behind that door is a room. With a moose!
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Oct 6, 2020 12:43
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Won't Oona realize that Durkon & Minrah's tracks vanish just inside the door? Though that doesn't mean that the big bads will be able to figure out where they are, especially if Redcloak is hanging onto True Seeing. Which... I think might not work because isn't True Seeing blocked by LOS? I don't recall.
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Oct 6, 2020 14:01
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You leave tracks in the snow, but you don't leave tracks on hardwood or stone floors.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:19
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SlothfulCobra posted:You leave tracks in the snow, but you don't leave tracks on hardwood or stone floors. You can leave tracks on a dusty floor, though, and if this is a door that the MitD falsely marked, it will probably have a lot of dust.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:25
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habeasdorkus posted:Won't Oona realize that Durkon & Minrah's tracks vanish just inside the door? Though that doesn't mean that the big bads will be able to figure out where they are, especially if Redcloak is hanging onto True Seeing. Which... I think might not work because isn't True Seeing blocked by LOS? I don't recall. Per the SRD, True Seeing "sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things". So Redcloak would see two dwarves huddled in the stone, presumably. But! You'd think maybe they could skate by on a technicality and meld under the surface of the stone, because you're right, True Seeing is blocked by LOS and doesn't penetrate non-magical concealment like walls or doors. I checked Meld Into Stone, though, and it has this amazingly specific rider: quote:While in the stone, you remain in contact, however tenuous, with the face of the stone through which you melded. So RAW Durkon and Minrah couldn't have melded beneath the surface of the stone such that Redcloak wouldn't have line of sight to the transfigured dwarves hiding there. They'd have to have at least a fingertip or hand-print or the like pressed directly against the surface, which would appear as a normal dwarf hand when viewed by True Seeing. D&D is silly.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:33
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SlothfulCobra posted:You leave tracks in the snow, but you don't leave tracks on hardwood or stone floors. But what if you had snow stuck in the treads of your boots as you walked from the snow onto the stone floor? 
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Oct 6, 2020 15:34
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Gwyneth Palpate posted:You can leave tracks on a dusty floor, though, and if this is a door that the MitD falsely marked, it will probably have a lot of dust. Dust? In the Arctic?
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Oct 6, 2020 15:39
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Android Blues posted:Per the SRD, True Seeing "sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things". So Redcloak would see two dwarves huddled in the stone, presumably. But! You'd think maybe they could skate by on a technicality and meld under the surface of the stone, because you're right, True Seeing is blocked by LOS and doesn't penetrate non-magical concealment like walls or doors. That is up there with "fireball explicitly doesn't damage fragile or flammable unattended objects" over-tuning the rules.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:40
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ikanreed posted:That is up there with "fireball explicitly doesn't damage fragile or flammable unattended objects" over-tuning the rules. Yeah, my favourite moment in the War of the Spider Queen series of Forgotten Realms books was when Phauraun did the delayed blast fireball/force cage combination on the enemy daemon (the idea being, if physics applied, then the enclosed space of the force cage made the fireball more damaging). This actually not being possible RAW is kinda dumb.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:48
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ikanreed posted:That is up there with "fireball explicitly doesn't damage fragile or flammable unattended objects" over-tuning the rules. Well, spells in D&D are supposed to do exactly what they say and no more. They have decades of rules lawyering experience to come up with that stuff.
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Oct 6, 2020 15:55
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ikanreed posted:That is up there with "fireball explicitly doesn't damage fragile or flammable unattended objects" over-tuning the rules. So then Fireball is actually a very high DR illusion, then. So convincingly real, that monsters believe themselves hurt.
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Oct 6, 2020 16:01
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Johnny Aztec posted:So then Fireball is actually a very high DR illusion, then. I believe this is a actual thing in 3.5e with Shadow magic illusions.
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Oct 6, 2020 16:04
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Raenir Salazar posted:I believe this is a actual thing in 3.5e with Shadow magic illusions. Yes, and even if they disbelieve it's still some % real so they still take damage. With the right prestige class combo you can get that percentage to be greater than 100%, making them take MORE damage on a failed will save. Well, unless your DM uses their brain.
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Oct 6, 2020 16:10
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wdarkk posted:Yes, and even if they disbelieve it's still some % real so they still take damage. Ah, the homeopathic fireball. Hurts you less if you believe.
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Oct 6, 2020 16:12
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wdarkk posted:Yes, and even if they disbelieve it's still some % real so they still take damage. It is entirely keeping in theme for high level shadow magic to be realer than the spell it is copying.
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Oct 6, 2020 16:37
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wdarkk posted:Yes, and even if they disbelieve it's still some % real so they still take damage. Honestly, this isn't even the hundredth dumbest thing that wizards can do, and it actually has a theme and focus, so I'm actually down with it working as is.
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Oct 6, 2020 16:58
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Yeah a lot of settings have a theme of "magic is actually hypnosis, you against the collective unconscious" thing going on so I can get behind spells that do more damage because you're going against the grain.
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Oct 6, 2020 17:06
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Raenir Salazar posted:Yeah, my favourite moment in the War of the Spider Queen series of Forgotten Realms books was when Phauraun did the delayed blast fireball/force cage combination on the enemy daemon (the idea being, if physics applied, then the enclosed space of the force cage made the fireball more damaging). Shadowrun has this as a rule for grenades and enclosed spaces. It’s specifically called out as the “chunky salsa” rule.
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Oct 6, 2020 17:25
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Android Blues posted:So RAW Durkon and Minrah couldn't have melded beneath the surface of the stone such that Redcloak wouldn't have line of sight to the transfigured dwarves hiding there. They'd have to have at least a fingertip or hand-print or the like pressed directly against the surface, which would appear as a normal dwarf hand when viewed by True Seeing. Hah, Rich might have wrote the bit about Redcloak saving his true seeing just to make sure that aspect was covered. Count me in on team "This is where they find out that the crossed off doors are not accurate."
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Oct 6, 2020 17:30
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Phanatic posted:Shadowrun has this as a rule for grenades and enclosed spaces. It’s specifically called out as the “chunky salsa” rule. I'm really disappointed they didn't do a 6th edition. The rules could use some love and care by at least somewhat competent developers.
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Oct 6, 2020 17:55
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