Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Roman/ancient history: Checkmate, Atenists

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Jerry Manderbilt posted:

to try and stay on topic, china has a millennia-long, storied mythology of ethnic and cultural exceptionalism (if not outright supremacy); an equally long and storied history of empire and expansionism; a very long history of treating its southern neighbors as vassal states and the brown-skinned residents thereof as untermenschen

if any of that rings any bells then all of sudden it becomes much less surprising that there's a lot of chinese both here and in china who feel an affinity for white supremacy, or how...

while it's true that a lot of this is because the racism of a lot of first-generation chinese-americans has crossed the language barrier and metastasized like a cancer in the PRC, it's also true that far too many of my co-ethnics readily believe self-evidently insane narratives about how the US government collaborates with black lives matter activists to target and kill chinese people or how the UC system is going to ban chinese people and give all the admissions slots to illiterate unqualified black and brown kids from richmond or little saigon and the like, and are hostile to hearing narratives to the contrary and call those of us who call them on it "race traitors" or "n***er-lovers" (or at best, delusional or naive).

like in early 2017 my great-aunt in shanghai, who has never once set foot in north america, hit up my mom on wechat to say "isn't it great that daddy trump got elected?? he's going to ban the n***ers from harvard and berkeley and keep dangerous terrorist muslims out!" and couldn't understand why my mom was so upset with her; to my great-aunt, this was all just common sense. that's what we're dealing with here.

A really interesting part of the history in China is watching the Tang in specific become more xenophobic during and after the An Lushan Rebellion. I find it especially striking since the Tang have the reputation in the West of being the not-xenophobic dynasty. And then they lynched the chancellor and the emperor's favorite concubine because the chancellor had a meeting with some Tibetans*.

I also don't think there's any like...merit to trying to tie racism in general to some single origin point that carries all the weight above every later participant. Its doubtless the case that America its antiblack racism over the last 100 years. But other countries are, y'know, countries, full of people and histories and such all their own, and they're perfectly capable of refracting and building their own beliefs, whether they riff on things they imported from other cultures or not. Like America's race theory can be traced back to Andalusia, which is interesting and cool but I'm not going to act like that absolves America or something.

*In fairness he was widely hated already, but that was part of the pretext.

# ? Aug 2, 2022 18:51

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# ? May 27, 2024 16:02

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Tulip posted:

But other countries are, y'know, countries, full of people and histories and such all their own, and they're perfectly capable of refracting and building their own beliefs, whether they riff on things they imported from other cultures or not.

This is a fact very difficult for many people to learn, I think; and even harder to really internalize.

# ? Aug 2, 2022 19:06

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Nessus posted:

This is a fact very difficult for many people to learn, I think; and even harder to really internalize.

People are very bad about this with anybody who lives more than a few miles/steps on the SEC ladder away, and I think my most quixotic crusade is to get people to understand this about people who have been dead for centuries.

Every person who has lived on this earth was as much a person as you: from a Messenian helot to an early-modern prostitute in Antwerp to Qin Shi Huangdi to a Babylonia who got stabbed at the Battle of Gaugamela. I find it kind of awe-inspiring, that all of the thoughts and hopes and dreams I have are equally important to those of a councilmember of Uruk or a child of the linear pottery culture.

# ? Aug 2, 2022 19:31

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Tulip posted:

A really interesting part of the history in China is watching the Tang in specific become more xenophobic during and after the An Lushan Rebellion. I find it especially striking since the Tang have the reputation in the West of being the not-xenophobic dynasty. And then they lynched the chancellor and the emperor's favorite concubine because the chancellor had a meeting with some Tibetans*.

I also don't think there's any like...merit to trying to tie racism in general to some single origin point that carries all the weight above every later participant. Its doubtless the case that America its antiblack racism over the last 100 years. But other countries are, y'know, countries, full of people and histories and such all their own, and they're perfectly capable of refracting and building their own beliefs, whether they riff on things they imported from other cultures or not. Like America's race theory can be traced back to Andalusia, which is interesting and cool but I'm not going to act like that absolves America or something.

*In fairness he was widely hated already, but that was part of the pretext.

But don�t you see, if we can just track racism to its homeland, we will have found the Real Racists, and then we can just get rid of them and the problem will be solved. 🤔

Taizong has that great quote about knowing what to do with both Chinese and barbarians, but apart from that I don�t think I was ever taught that the Tang as a dynasty were necessarily tolerant. Kind of hard to associate that with empire, Chinese or Roman. Maybe �cosmopolitan�.

The way histories talk about An Lushan reminds me strongly of late antique generalissimos like Stilicho, Aetius, etc. Semi-barbaric because they come from a military periphery, they tread on the toes of the heartland elite, they�re already at cross purposes politically so the home team ultimately rejects them as a bunch of foreign invaders and it comes to open violence, even as the guys in question are themselves trying to be as civilized as anyone. Reading Zosimus about Stilicho you�re immediately struck by how much he�s talking about barbarians, they come up in like every sentence, and most of the time he�s talking about the military authorities and men of the Roman state. Zosimus also tells us that Stilicho�s death was followed by organized lynching directed against the families of �barbarians�.

# ? Aug 2, 2022 19:47

Koramei: Nov 11, 2011; I have three regrets
The first is to be born in Joseon.

I�ve definitely heard of Tang as the �tolerant� dynasty. I think some parts of its culture that particularly clash with our modern image of what less tolerant states allow, e.g. low cut dresses, maybe contribute to that impression very visibly.

Tulip posted:

Every person who has lived on this earth was as much a person as you: from a Messenian helot to an early-modern prostitute in Antwerp to Qin Shi Huangdi to a Babylonia who got stabbed at the Battle of Gaugamela. I find it kind of awe-inspiring, that all of the thoughts and hopes and dreams I have are equally important to those of a councilmember of Uruk or a child of the linear pottery culture.

Dang, I love this, you put it really colorfully. When I�m in a certain mood I definitely have had that realization kinda wash over me; I remember seeing some prominent finger marks in a Neolithic pot and it suddenly struck me that there was an actual human on the other side of that story, all those thousands of years ago.

# ? Aug 3, 2022 00:07

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Koramei posted:

Dang, I love this, you put it really colorfully. When I�m in a certain mood I definitely have had that realization kinda wash over me; I remember seeing some prominent finger marks in a Neolithic pot and it suddenly struck me that there was an actual human on the other side of that story, all those thousands of years ago.

Aw thank you. The art piece that really stuck in my mind that was similar was a small clay disk from Sumeria. It was in a similar set of other palm sized disks that were being used for school exercises - y'know, copy a bunch of cuneiform, rub it into a ball so it it gets erased, slap it into a disk, repeat. So it was clearly intended for that, but instead of having math or writing it just had doodles. Some kid just got bored as gently caress during class.

skasion posted:

Taizong has that great quote about knowing what to do with both Chinese and barbarians, but apart from that I don�t think I was ever taught that the Tang as a dynasty were necessarily tolerant. Kind of hard to associate that with empire, Chinese or Roman. Maybe �cosmopolitan�.

To be clear I'm talking about an American perception, not sure what a contemporary Chinese feeling about it would be.

The coarsest reason for this is the Buddhism. Just the basic fact of Buddhism being endorsed by the state points to the Tang being less-nativist than average. This can be seen either in addition to or inclusive of Journey to the West, which most associate with where its set (Tang) rather than when it was written (Ming). Either way, this gives Tang a reputation for being "outside" oriented in a way that doesn't make sense to describe the Han, Song, etc.

With a little more knowledge, the Tang is also an exceptionally expansionist dynasty, and especially expansionist into the Tarim Basin where assimilation was not the goal nearly so much as "access" to foreign regions and their goods. This is also often seen as evidence of them being open-minded. And of course alongside this is the frequent employment of Westerners (think Sogdian, not Greek) at high levels in government esp in the military is seen as evidence of Tang open-mindedness/lack of bigotry.

Of course there's some details that make this more questionable, and there's always a critical lens when you need one. Most obviously, the favor toward Buddhism ebbed and flowed, with some Emperors who are more Taoist retaliating against the Buddhists, most famously Wuzong (who was well after An Lushan, of course). And is it really good to tolerate people via conquest? Is that tolerance or just imperialism? Is imperialism generally a form of open-mindedness then?

And then there's the part that its ultimately a relative claim, and so Tang doesn't need to be more open minded compared to the USA or PRC in 2022, it just needs to be more than the Han or Song. Which tbh I'm not really a good way to compare but it seems like a somewhat meaningful claim?

Koramei posted:

I�ve definitely heard of Tang as the �tolerant� dynasty. I think some parts of its culture that particularly clash with our modern image of what less tolerant states allow, e.g. low cut dresses, maybe contribute to that impression very visibly.

Sad but true

# ? Aug 3, 2022 01:25

Beefeater1980: Sep 12, 2008; My God, it's full of Horatios!

I don�t think it�s a western view particularly, here in China plenty of people will talk about Tang as an open minded, inclusive iteration of the country. It�s a folk understanding IMO.

# ? Aug 3, 2022 01:39

Fuligin: Oct 27, 2010; wait what the fuck??

Tulip posted:

People are very bad about this with anybody who lives more than a few miles/steps on the SEC ladder away, and I think my most quixotic crusade is to get people to understand this about people who have been dead for centuries.

Every person who has lived on this earth was as much a person as you: from a Messenian helot to an early-modern prostitute in Antwerp to Qin Shi Huangdi to a Babylonia who got stabbed at the Battle of Gaugamela. I find it kind of awe-inspiring, that all of the thoughts and hopes and dreams I have are equally important to those of a councilmember of Uruk or a child of the linear pottery culture.

uhhh ill have u know that Qin Shi Huangdi was actually a 'New Man' according to his occultist toadies, totally different thing,,

# ? Aug 3, 2022 01:44

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

He was able to spark Magnesium-Based Lifeform, but he heard it wrong. Tragically wrong...

# ? Aug 3, 2022 02:54

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Fuligin posted:

uhhh ill have u know that Qin Shi Huangdi was actually a 'New Man' according to his occultist toadies, totally different thing,,

That�s reminds me: I�ve always found it odd that the title of emperor (huangdi) stuck around after the overthrow of the Qin Dynasty, especially since the First Emperor was seen as such a tyrant in the traditional historiography.

I remember reading that Hong Xiuquan called himself a king rather than an emperor because he considered the �di� part a blasphemous usurpation of the title of the supreme God (Shangdi), although of course it really derives from the titles of the Three Sovereigns (huang) and Five Emperors (di). Though maybe he would say that the Five Emperors were guilty of the same blasphemy. Well, whether it was OK for them to call themselves that is a moot point, since they were almost certainly mythical anyway...

Edit: Now I remember where I read that about Hong Xiuquan: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/a504ju/comment/ebk194a/. Very interesting stuff, although of course it's about the 19th century and thus not really within the scope of this thread.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Aug 3, 2022

# ? Aug 3, 2022 03:32

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

TipTow posted:

Yeah, Matthew 24:36 does a lot of work in keeping the imminency of the coming Kingdom of God *just* at arm's length forever.

But the context of the gospels is the war and the destruction of the temple. They are written down as consequence of the war and prior to that were likely oral traditions. At least that�s a strong potential explanation for either the two sources or four source hypothesis in some historical criticism. It�s the answer I like best to the synoptic problem though there are certainly other strong answers.

So the whole chapter 24 the context for the readers when it was written might be currently occurring apocalypse of the Jewish war.

# ? Aug 3, 2022 04:25

Angry Salami: Jul 27, 2013; Don't trust the skull.

Nessus posted:

This baffles me. Would the average Chinese person have even had much chance to encounter Africans? Isn't the Chinese government trying to butter that area up? Or is this in fact all just free strain insanity which is bubbling up from youtube recommendations infesting the brains of bilingual people with the finest corn-fried memetic complexes of the early 20th century?

Don't Guangzhou and Shanghai have decent-sized Nigerian immigrant communities now? A drop in the bucket, demographically, but enough that it'd be something that certain people would be Very Concerned about .

# ? Aug 3, 2022 07:01

Judgy Fucker: Mar 24, 2006

Bar Ran Dun posted:

But the context of the gospels is the war and the destruction of the temple. They are written down as consequence of the war and prior to that were likely oral traditions. At least that�s a strong potential explanation for either the two sources or four source hypothesis in some historical criticism. It�s the answer I like best to the synoptic problem though there are certainly other strong answers.

So the whole chapter 24 the context for the readers when it was written might be currently occurring apocalypse of the Jewish war.

I know the Gospels (Matthew, Luke, and John, at least) were likely written post-Temple, but what evidence is there that they were codified because of the Jewish revolt? Especially John which is fairly anti-Jewish compared to the others.

# ? Aug 3, 2022 13:31

Nissin Cup Nudist: Sep 3, 2011; Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land

I thought about the Spartacus TV show for the first time in a while and was ancient Rome just as uh ... Aggressively Horny as portrayed in the show?

# ? Aug 3, 2022 19:14

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

I thought about the Spartacus TV show for the first time in a while and was ancient Rome just as uh ... Aggressively Horny as portrayed in the show?

https://youtu.be/WL3NttZR5t8

# ? Aug 3, 2022 19:22

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

I thought about the Spartacus TV show for the first time in a while and was ancient Rome just as uh ... Aggressively Horny as portrayed in the show?

They were a lot more open about sexual stuff than the modern day is my understanding, but whether that meant there was significantly more loving vs. significantly more dick-based good luck charms is a different matter.

# ? Aug 3, 2022 19:25

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

I thought about the Spartacus TV show for the first time in a while and was ancient Rome just as uh ... Aggressively Horny as portrayed in the show?

A culture as large as Rome cannot be generalized. So yes and no.

# ? Aug 3, 2022 19:27

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

I think to some extent you're inevitably going to have sex be viewed as less private in any society where beds are expensive enough that you only have one of them for the whole family

like, not necessarily loving right in front of everyone, but it's going to be pretty impossible to like, have the idea that children shouldn't even know that sex exists in that situation

# ? Aug 3, 2022 19:32

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

I look forward to somebody asking that about the US and Euphoria.

euphronius posted:

A culture as large as Rome cannot be generalized. So yes and no.

What is or is not seen as illicit sexuality is extremely variable with time and I am pretty sure that nearly any time and place looking at the US would find us either neurotically prudish or obscenely horny, depending on what they saw and that particular person's feelings about what is "normal" sexuality to discuss in public.

I never, ever forget that Hittite law was extremely harsh about punishing sexual deviance, like no death penalty for murder but yes death penalty for perversion*. However the legal code does not mention anything about the genders involved. It's doubtful that homosexuality was seen as just completely unthinkable, so its more likely they just didn't think it was the law's business.

And if you go around any really ancient Hindu architecture, there's a lot of huge titties carved into everything. This doesn't mean very much for the overall ambient horniness of Hindu cultures, its just part of the ancient artistic tradition that everybody accepts.

*Specifically, incest and bestiality with sheep, dogs, and pigs were hard death penalty offences (but only heavy fines for horses or mules (no we don't know why)).

# ? Aug 3, 2022 19:38

Imagined: Feb 2, 2007

I mean the Romans did have the annual parade of giant dicks. They poo poo and bathed communally. It seems pretty sure they weren't what we'd call prudes.

# ? Aug 3, 2022 19:49

A_Bluenoser: Jan 13, 2008; ...oh where could that fish be?...; Nap Ghost

Imagined posted:

I mean the Romans did have the annual parade of giant dicks. They poo poo and bathed communally. It seems pretty sure they weren't what we'd call prudes.

They could have been very prudy but simply not have seen nudity as inherently sexual in any way. What is sexual and what is not is almost entirely culturally dependent.

# ? Aug 3, 2022 20:42

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

The Romans thought that the Samnites were disgustingly vulgar, a stereotype the Samnites played up to by doing things like getting their pubic hair trimmed in public

Romans loved to gently caress though, Julius Caesar famously loved shagging senator's wives

# ? Aug 3, 2022 20:48

Vahakyla: May 3, 2013

MikeCrotch posted:

Romans loved to gently caress though, Julius Caesar famously loved shagging senator's wives

Never since repeated by rich people

# ? Aug 3, 2022 20:51

Jamwad Hilder: Apr 18, 2007; surfin usa

MikeCrotch posted:

Romans loved to gently caress though, Julius Caesar famously loved shagging senator's wives

he also allegedly enjoyed getting shagged by the king of Bithynia, which was scandalous not because it was homosexual, but because he was supposedly the bottom in the arrangement. During his triumph after his victories in Gaul, people are said to have chanted "Caesar laid the Gauls low, Nicomedes laid Caesar low"

# ? Aug 3, 2022 22:14

Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

Jamwad Hilder posted:

he also allegedly enjoyed getting shagged by the king of Bithynia, which was scandalous not because it was homosexual, but because he was supposedly the bottom in the arrangement. During his triumph after his victories in Gaul, people are said to have chanted "Caesar laid the Gauls low, Nicomedes laid Caesar low"

The rumor wasn't just that he let the king of Bithnyia do it, but that he prostituted himself to him, doing it it in exchange for ships.

So the scandal is, first, he let himself be penetrated, second, he sold his body, and thing, he, a Roman, submitted to a Greek king who owed loyalty to Rome.

# ? Aug 4, 2022 02:01

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

The credibility on that rumor is low but your never know

# ? Aug 4, 2022 02:06

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

imagine being a sailor and being told to fight and die in a war to help your king get laid

# ? Aug 4, 2022 02:07

Gaius Marius: Oct 9, 2012

Join a navy and still end up a wingman

# ? Aug 4, 2022 02:09

Kylaer: Aug 4, 2007; I'm SURE walking around in a respirator at all times in an (even more) OPEN BIDENing society is definitely not a recipe for disaster and anyone that's not cool with getting harassed by CHUDs are cave dwellers. I've got good brain!

cheetah7071 posted:

imagine being a sailor and being told to fight and die in a war to help your king get laid

Would it be better or worse to be sent to war because some smuggler named Jenkins got his ear cut off?

# ? Aug 4, 2022 02:30

Elissimpark: May 20, 2010; Bring me the head of Auguste Escoffier.

cheetah7071 posted:

imagine being a sailor and being told to fight and die in a war to help your king get laid

At least wanting to get laid is relatable.

# ? Aug 4, 2022 04:11

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

TipTow posted:

I know the Gospels (Matthew, Luke, and John, at least) were likely written post-Temple, but what evidence is there that they were codified because of the Jewish revolt? Especially John which is fairly anti-Jewish compared to the others.

The book is packed because I�m moving again but my memory of the argument is that the order they are written corresponds to the communities affected geographically as the war progress. John�s anti Jewish bias is that community getting affect last, being less Jewish and more Greek thinking and internally having some blame on the Jewish Christian community for the war.

# ? Aug 4, 2022 05:32

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

there's a fair argument to be made that none of the gospels are anti-jewish, simply anti-pharisee or otherwise enmeshed in a context of jewish factional fighting that saw the ruling jewish factions of the day slandered in ways that much later christians then extended into full-blown anti-semitism. all of the gospels were written by jewish christians as best as anyone can tell, and the real schism between modern judaism and jewish christianity didn't really take place until the bar kokhba revolt in 132 - that is, the schism post-dates all of the gospels. it wouldn't really make sense for any of their authors to slam the entirety of the jewish people when they considered themselves part of that people

# ? Aug 4, 2022 06:08

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Jazerus posted:

there's a fair argument to be made that none of the gospels are anti-jewish, simply anti-pharisee or otherwise enmeshed in a context of jewish factional fighting that saw the ruling jewish factions of the day slandered in ways that much later christians then extended into full-blown anti-semitism. all of the gospels were written by jewish christians as best as anyone can tell, and the real schism between modern judaism and jewish christianity didn't really take place until the bar kokhba revolt in 132 - that is, the schism post-dates all of the gospels. it wouldn't really make sense for any of their authors to slam the entirety of the jewish people when they considered themselves part of that people

This is all true and a good point.

# ? Aug 4, 2022 06:57

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

euphronius posted:

The credibility on that rumor is low but your never know

It sounds like the ancient equivalent of people going on about how Putin and Turmp are totes having gay sex.

# ? Aug 4, 2022 09:45

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

https://twitter.com/alloy_dr/status/1554987321048670210?s=20&t=4PnIXyfgwrX5JkL7GNEEqw

# ? Aug 4, 2022 12:47

CoolCab: Apr 17, 2005; glem

Jazerus posted:

there's a fair argument to be made that none of the gospels are anti-jewish, simply anti-pharisee or otherwise enmeshed in a context of jewish factional fighting that saw the ruling jewish factions of the day slandered in ways that much later christians then extended into full-blown anti-semitism. all of the gospels were written by jewish christians as best as anyone can tell, and the real schism between modern judaism and jewish christianity didn't really take place until the bar kokhba revolt in 132 - that is, the schism post-dates all of the gospels. it wouldn't really make sense for any of their authors to slam the entirety of the jewish people when they considered themselves part of that people

i always put it down partially to the council of Nicaea and similar who weren't great about jewish people anyway and had a pretty strong incentive to canonize versions of the biblical stories which had a non-roman villain, but thinking about that i'm making a total assumption.

# ? Aug 4, 2022 14:53

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

There�s a certain amount of post internal fight poo poo talking about groups that lost the internal fights and I�ve seen that as reason for anti Pharisee and anti women talk in the NT.

# ? Aug 4, 2022 23:44