|
There's even an appeals process, but going through it counts against your time to  and pretty much guarantees your rear end is right smack in the middle of the frying pan if your appeal is denied.SynthOrange posted:I thought it meant the clan would cease to exist and they'd try to absorb all its members? That's the Rite of Absorption, which basically amounts to refusing to recognize your rule and taking possession of your holdings. Less genocide, more brass killing each other in duels. This takes years as the absorbing clan inevitably has to fight off everyone that doesn't like them for the right to actually do the thing. dis astranagant fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Sep 28, 2014 |
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 11:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 00:20 |
|
|
Option C. All the clans into the sphere is a recipe for utter madness. If you want to destroy the Clans, put all of them in the path of the inner sphere counterattack. If you want the clans to be stronger, then weed out the idiots who attack without thinking and waste their resources. Bear in mind this is an abjuration, Not an annihilation: If the vote passes, the Ice Hellions won't be hunted down and killed, they'll just be chased out of Clan space, and only hunted down and killed if they don't go/take too long. All their neat toys, factories and so on left behind would be confiscated and put to good use by the rest. This isn't what Clan Wolverine got, it's what the Nova Cats and Wolf in Exile got in the original timeline. A vote for 'A' won't destroy them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 11:21
|
|
|
SynthOrange posted:I thought it meant the clan would cease to exist and they'd try to absorb all its members? That's a Trial of Absorption where you pick up the warrior/bloodname/cluster/clan if you win. Of course the Hellions do have the option of calling for a Trial of Refusal which is basically a trial to say any other trial is dumb. Edit Option C Because the Ice Hellions may be crazy and stupid but by god they are entertaining.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 11:24
|
|
|
Ferrosol posted:That's a Trial of Absorption where you pick up the warrior/bloodname/cluster/clan if you win.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 11:25
|
|
|
Refusals aren't for trials, they're for Council votes. Presumably you don't have anything let to try with.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 11:27
|
|
|
A - Abjure Clan Ice Hellion. Clanners are dicks, so let them be maximum dicks to each other.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 11:40
|
|
|
Nope changed my mind. Read later post. Affi fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Sep 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 11:53
|
|
|
Voting C to see the clans go all-in, and the problems that entails. Also to erode the political power of the Smoke Jaguars and the Widowmakers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 12:17
|
|
|
Voting C - gently caress the clans forever.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 13:55
|
|
|
Voting C If they want to keep invading, they can keep invading. They just don't have the right to bitch about it when a clan who should be there kills their people for interfering with their secret plans.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 14:03
|
|
|
I like how this round of voting is proving how detail oriented most of the LP battletech voters are. ...hoping that PTN doesn't edit his post, and goes into battletech rules lawyer mode regarding all cast votes. off topic: PTN, how is your Mechwarrior 2 Mercs experience so far? Are you running into technical issues with your LP? the one thing we didn't enable on your dosbox setup was hardcoding the IPX connection for on-the-fly real multiplayer via mercnet(the upgraded version of netmech). it would be kinda cool if MW2 Mercs mercnet tournaments happened with the help of this thread.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 14:29
|
|
|
I vote C. Not only will this lead to more disorganised clan attacks, it will also no doubt lead to much clan infighting as everyone tries to get a chunk of prime inner sphere real estate.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 15:17
|
|
|
Party in the Inner Sphere!
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 15:47
|
|
|
1 - Abjure Clan Ice Hellion Asa Taney is the worst and the thought of him getting his way in anything is terrible.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 15:50
|
|
|
C - Let them invade if they want it so bad
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 15:53
|
|
|
2 just to be contrary.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 16:00
|
|
|
Abjuration.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 16:06
|
|
|
JT Jag posted:Except for a Trial of Refusal. Can't call for a Trial of Refusal on a Trial of Refusal. Because that would just be madness. You also can't call a Trial of Refusal for Absorption or Annihilation. If you survive what they send at you, that is your Trial. e: You know what? This is a good time to go over what the really big trials are for. I'mma run this down real quick. People are probably familiar with the basic ones: possession ("That is mine"), grievance ("I will punch an apology out of your face") and refusal ("gently caress you"). We aren't here to talk about those, we're here to talk about the three As: Absorption, Abjuration and Annihilation. Absorption is basically what you do when someone does something bad, but not bad enough that you don't think their troops are unsalvageable and you want to give those guys a clean slate. Clan Star Adder absorbed the Homeworlds remnant of the Horses under this principle. When this happens, the absorbed Clan is considered to have made a clean break with their old leadership and any perceived taint that came from it and are now Star Adders or whatever. Technically you can absorb any defeated units that are bid against you in a Trial, but until the early 3060s (when Invading Clans used it to replenish their numbers from Homeworld Clans) that was pretty rare. Abjuration is a step up from that. You don't think they deserve a second chance, you just want them to get the gently caress out. This is what CIH are facing. This is reserved for major infractions of Clan law, like losing a Trial and then deciding you're just gonna do it anyway (as the Hellions did for an invasion corridor). While this punishment is made out to be a very rare thing in the books, it's actually used against small groups or individuals more than the other two A-trials. Basically, you get X amount of time to get out of Clan space and then the other Clans come over and start going through all your poo poo like a bunch of Sackville-Bagginses. Unlike Absorption and Annihilation, which are one-way streets, Abjuration can be overturned (it may have been overturned for the Nova Cats and WiE in the Dark Age, or maybe each Clan is selectively ignoring it as they see fit). Your bloodname is stripped from you and nobody can trace a claim to one through you, so an abjured Bloodname founder means that Bloodname is wiped out. On the upside, they don't actually kill your offspring and, in the case of a Clan, your civilian castes get assimilated neatly into a new Clan. That's not the case with... Annihilation, or legalized ethnic cleansing. A Trial of Annihilation is the worst punishment in Clan law, where you are attacked until you are dead. There is no stopping and no Periphery to flee to where the Clans will stop loving with you because you're out of their space. The only way to survive is to go to ground so deep that they lose track of you, as the Wolverines did. Not only are warriors all marked for death, but all sibkos as well, and all civilian castes belonging to that Clan are sterilized so that they can still work but any possible remnants of their old Clan culture won't be passed on. This was only done once until the Wars of Reaving, when it happened a whole bunch. This is also a punishment occasionally levied on small groups, but usually it's easier just to abjure people and let their descendants carry the shame and serve as an example. Annihilation for individuals is generally reserved for someone who does something that makes the Clans freak out about them even existing. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Sep 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 16:38
|
|
|
AJ_Impy posted:Option C. All the clans into the sphere is a recipe for utter madness. If you want to destroy the Clans, put all of them in the path of the inner sphere counterattack. If you want the clans to be stronger, then weed out the idiots who attack without thinking and waste their resources. Bear in mind this is an abjuration, Not an annihilation: If the vote passes, the Ice Hellions won't be hunted down and killed, they'll just be chased out of Clan space, and only hunted down and killed if they don't go/take too long. All their neat toys, factories and so on left behind would be confiscated and put to good use by the rest. This isn't what Clan Wolverine got, it's what the Nova Cats and Wolf in Exile got in the original timeline. A vote for 'A' won't destroy them. Ice Hellions are too stupid and impulsive to leave without a fight so it's gonna get bloody. or so I want to believe.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 17:05
|
|
|
Absorption is wonky in that it's not actually a single trial. It's technically a Trial of Refusal against the council decision to let someone call a Trial of Possession on all your poo poo, which is why it tends to get bogged down by everyone and their mother calling trials on the Absorbing clan.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 17:15
|
|
|
dis astranagant posted:Absorption is wonky in that it's not actually a single trial. It's technically a Trial of Refusal against the council decision to let someone call a Trial of Possession on all your poo poo, which is why it tends to get bogged down by everyone and their mother calling trials on the Absorbing clan. It's almost like Kerensky was just making this poo poo up as he went or something.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 17:22
|
|
|
I'm voting for Option A - Abjurement. The Clans have a dim view of those who try to blaze their own trail from what I've seen. I'd imagine that the homeworld Clans would be all about this regardless of their views of CIH, to seize CIH conclaves and any reserve assets left in Clan space to make it more likely that they themselves could contend with the big boys in the Inner Sphere invasion for their own potential future invasion corridors/slices of the pie. It's not surprising Kerensky is supporting it, since the absolute clusterfuck of Trials and counter-Trials will occupy/bleed out the homeworld Clans for years, and she won't have to deal with another upstart Clan in the IS that might throw off her secret plans to make the invasion a crucible for Clan society as a whole.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 17:26
|
|
|
Option A seems most in-character when looking at the prevailing council mood, and that's what counts.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 18:24
|
|
|
Gimmick Account posted:Option A seems most in-character when looking at the prevailing council mood, and that's what counts.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 18:26
|
|
|
I also vote Option A, because Khan Taney is a goddamn slimy poo poo even by the worst standards of the worst Clans and I hope he gets his poo poo wrecked and has to die knowing that everything he built is ruined because of his stupidity. edit: Were it literally any other clan I would vote C, but I cannot stand the idea of the Ice Hellions getting anything good.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 18:41
|
|
|
Are we picking MVPs yet? Because if so my vote is for the Shadow Hawk and the Woodsman. The Shadow Hawk crippled and then disabled the Kintaro with its AP Rounds and took out the Commando with an explosive iNarc rocket. The Woodsman needs no explanation, it simply did a great job of wearing the players down from long range.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 18:41
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:Annihilation for individuals is generally reserved for someone who does something that makes the Clans freak out about them even existing. Can you elaborate on this? Has it ever happened, and if so, when/to whom? Also, what's with the Taney hate? I'm not super familiar with the homeworld clans; what did he do that's got some people so eager for him and his entire clan to ?
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 19:43
|
|
|
PoptartsNinja posted:Grand Council Vote 1) Abjure Clan Ice Hellion Clan Ice Hellion participated in the original Trials to secure an invasion slot, quiaff? Clearly, they failed to do so. If their warriors were worthy, they would not have failed. If their warriors had proper honor, they would have engaged in Trials of Refusal in defiance of their Khans' dezgra orders. Let them all burn.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 19:59
|
|
|
Shoeless posted:Can you elaborate on this? Has it ever happened, and if so, when/to whom? Well, as an example, in the 3070s, the scientist caste conspired to take over Clan society. The conspiracy originated in Clan Jade Falcon, who proceeded to engage in genocide against their entire scientist caste, while other organizations, such as the Hell's Horses, did the same but only with the people who were linked to the conspiracy. One of the problems with trying to come up with examples of people who have been Annihilated, and I forgot to mention this initially, is it's not only genocide, it also makes you a 1984-style Unperson. All mentions of your name in records are redacted and it's basically illegal to even say your name. That means the only Trials of Annihilation we know about are the ones that happen to large groups (like the Wolverines or the Steel Vipers) or happen to really important people right in front of us, because it's actually prohibited for the Clans to discuss their past actions once its happened. And Asa Taney is exactly the kind of leader the Clan system was created to produce: he is grossly incapable of any kind of subterfuge or deception, he simply does poo poo and then gets into fights over it, and he retains his position as Khan because he is extraordinarily good at flying his fighter. The fact that he grossly overrates his Clan's capacity for combat means people sometimes find him extremely obnoxious, but I find him hilarious. BMcDonough posted:1) Abjure Clan Ice Hellion ^^^ This is a dude who understands Clan law. When you lose a Trial you are expected to abide by the results of that. It's how Asa Taney stays Khan: he challenges people to Trials of Grievance for not voting for him and then when he beats them, they are required to vote for him. Failing to secure a place in a Trial and then just showing up anyway is serious rule-breaking on the part of everyone involved. Remember when you played Street Fighter 2 as a kid and the only move you knew how to do was Blanka's electricity move so you and your friend both promised not to just sit in the corner and do the electricity move? If you and your friend were Clan, when he did it anyway, you would be legally required to punch him in the face and lock him out of your house. Defiance Industries fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Sep 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:00
|
|
|
AJ_Impy posted:Option C. All the clans into the sphere is a recipe for utter madness. If you want to destroy the Clans, put all of them in the path of the inner sphere counterattack. If you want the clans to be stronger, then weed out the idiots who attack without thinking and waste their resources. Bear in mind this is an abjuration, Not an annihilation: If the vote passes, the Ice Hellions won't be hunted down and killed, they'll just be chased out of Clan space, and only hunted down and killed if they don't go/take too long. All their neat toys, factories and so on left behind would be confiscated and put to good use by the rest. This isn't what Clan Wolverine got, it's what the Nova Cats and Wolf in Exile got in the original timeline. A vote for 'A' won't destroy them. I thought the clans not just going all-in and having all the clans invade at once is what kept the clans from conquering the Inner Sphere in the first place? There's something like 20 of them but for some reason they insisted on invading with only 4 at a time - take the clan occupation zone and multiply it by 5 and they'd swallow Earth easily.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:05
|
|
|
Scintilla posted:Are we picking MVPs yet? Because if so my vote is for the Shadow Hawk and the Woodsman. The Shadow Hawk crippled and then disabled the Kintaro with its AP Rounds and took out the Commando with an explosive iNarc rocket. The Woodsman needs no explanation, it simply did a great job of wearing the players down from long range. Oh poo poo, yes. MVP votes as normal! Please vote for an MVP!
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:11
|
|
|
PoptartsNinja posted:Oh poo poo, yes. MVP votes as normal! Please vote for an MVP! I'm gonna do w/Shadow Hawk and Woodsman as well. I'm a sucker for a SHD, and the Woodsman... well, yeah. Kinda obvious there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:14
|
|
|
Dolash posted:I thought the clans not just going all-in and having all the clans invade at once is what kept the clans from conquering the Inner Sphere in the first place? There's something like 20 of them but for some reason they insisted on invading with only 4 at a time - take the clan occupation zone and multiply it by 5 and they'd swallow Earth easily. Given what we saw in the Jihad, the fact that they didn't do that is the only reason that there are Clans at all. Anyway, remember how the Clan system works: if you overwhelm someone with numbers there's no challenge, and if there's no challenge, there's no opportunity for individual glory, and that is the entire point of the Clan system. The Smoke Jaguars could have easily taken Luthien if they had committed their WarShip assets and another four Galaxies to the fight, but the idea is to bid down to the point they call the Cutdown, which is basically the bare minimum amount of forces it is possible to take an objective with. Same reason you saw Vlad Ward in his Mad Cat fighting an entire light lance at once, because it was supposed to be difficult for him. It was determined the Cutdown was four Clans, and rather than greeting the arrival of the reserve Clans in the invasion as a way to bolster their forces, the original Invaders were pissed off, because these new guys were elbowing their way to the table and making them look less cool.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:16
|
|
|
Shadow Hawk and Woodsman MVPs.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:21
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:Same reason you saw Vlad Ward in his Mad Cat fighting an entire light lance at once, because it was supposed to be difficult for him. If he wanted it to be difficult, he should've taken his Adder instead.  Defiance Industries posted:rather than greeting the arrival of the reserve Clans in the invasion as a way to bolster their forces, the original Invaders were pissed off, because these new guys were elbowing their way to the table and making them look less cool. It didn't help/hurt that Ulric assigned shared invasion corridors to bitter enemies.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:21
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:Same reason you saw Vlad Ward in his Mad Cat fighting an entire light lance at once, because it was supposed to be difficult for him. Then again, "supposed to be difficult" is the key part, considering a Mad Cat with a clan pilot is about the same BV as an entire IS light/medium lance. In a game, it's not even close unless you intentionally run the Mad Cat into short range. Even then, the Mad Cat will still win, but it might take some minor damage.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:28
|
|
|
Well it's not like there was anyone else there for him to engage or he probably would have thrown down with them, too.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:29
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:Given what we saw in the Jihad, the fact that they didn't do that is the only reason that there are Clans at all. Anyway, remember how the Clan system works: if you overwhelm someone with numbers there's no challenge, and if there's no challenge, there's no opportunity for individual glory, and that is the entire point of the Clan system. The Smoke Jaguars could have easily taken Luthien if they had committed their WarShip assets and another four Galaxies to the fight, but the idea is to bid down to the point they call the Cutdown, which is basically the bare minimum amount of forces it is possible to take an objective with. Same reason you saw Vlad Ward in his Mad Cat fighting an entire light lance at once, because it was supposed to be difficult for him. It was determined the Cutdown was four Clans, and rather than greeting the arrival of the reserve Clans in the invasion as a way to bolster their forces, the original Invaders were pissed off, because these new guys were elbowing their way to the table and making them look less cool. I understand that that's the clan's internal logic, but AJ_Impy suggested putting all the clans in the way of the Inner Sphere counter-attack would destroy them, when in fact it'd probably just ensure that no counter-attack would be possible. Legalizing a clan's apparently illegal invasion of the Inner Sphere and opening the door to every clan getting to rush in and claim territory if they want might piss off the invading clans since they look less cool but it also vastly increases the invasion force beyond the point that the IS can possibly resist. Voting A maintains the cutdown approach by punishing those clans who don't abide by it, while voting C weakens a the hold of a clan tradition that's harming their ability to actually win. ...Actually, now that I've said it like that, I kind of want to see C if it'd lead to a larger clan invasion - the clans might be pretty evil, but it'd also be weirdly satisfying to let the militarily superior force actually get to use that force and bring the war to its logical conclusion. Watching the clans play along with such contrived rules meant only to keep them from winning outright is ind of frustrating, in an "obvious writer meddling" kind of way.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:37
|
|
|
Dolash posted:I understand that that's the clan's internal logic, but AJ_Impy suggested putting all the clans in the way of the Inner Sphere counter-attack would destroy them, when in fact it'd probably just ensure that no counter-attack would be possible. Legalizing a clan's apparently illegal invasion of the Inner Sphere and opening the door to every clan getting to rush in and claim territory if they want might piss off the invading clans since they look less cool but it also vastly increases the invasion force beyond the point that the IS can possibly resist. Even with all 19 Clans in play, they don't have the numbers to subdue the major worlds of the Inner Sphere. They could subdue Capitals and March worlds, sure, but the Clans collectively field about as many troops as the FS and DC did in 3025, and unlike the Successor States, they don't have enormous amounts of militia levies behind the scenes: what you see in their books is what you get.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 00:20 |
|
|
Option A. Yeees, yesssss, kill each other.
|
|
#
?
Sep 28, 2014 20:49
|
|
