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Here's our team composition philosophy: Behold does useful nothing and distracts the opponents Snakes paralyzes them Dickspear stabs them in the back when they can't move It was, in theory, a perfect vehicle to give dickspear the maximum in-tournament kills, at the expense of actual competence Behold: 4 kills Snakes: 1 Dickspear: 7 kills We got lucky and it worked better than expected, by a margin of three or four round victories. Here's my final build quote:
I think it's notable that the adamantine was essentially useless against Jon Joe's team (never came up in the logs). I probably should have gone with no armor and maxxed out dodge instead. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Feb 9, 2017 |
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Feb 9, 2017 23:17
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Dont think the adamantine showed up in the 3rd round fight either. You should also mention that BEHOLD was originally an even more useless Whip Goblin until I begged him to change. The guide that whoever is writing needs to start with 'have teammates that want to do well and not gently caress around with gimmicks.'
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Feb 9, 2017 23:39
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Spermy Smurf posted:The guide that whoever is writing needs to start with 'have teammates that want to do well and not gently caress around with gimmicks.' I'm still preparing that, but it's the second line. The first line is "Do not be Spermy Smurf or Bad Munki."
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Feb 9, 2017 23:42
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Thats solid advice.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:47
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Splode posted:I based Heygal's guy's build off of anecdotal evidence from playing dwarf fortress. I noticed that once a fighter had high enough weapon skill, they never died. Combat logs would show that they never died because they never got hit, so armor wasn't critical. That's pretty close to my build philosophy, but instead of weapon skill I prioritized dodging. Went with Pike specifically because it should be pretty effective against larger creatures (due to the ability to penetrate), and counted on anything with enough skill to land a solid hit not having enough skill to avoid being hit.
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Feb 9, 2017 23:52
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Spermy Smurf posted:Thats solid advice. In that order of priority, yes.
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Feb 10, 2017 00:05
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You can go to heck.
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Feb 10, 2017 03:49
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Wow, let's not say anything we can't take back!
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Feb 10, 2017 04:49
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jon joe posted:If anyone would like, I can do a general write-up containing CiC's exact builds and my thinking behind the team composition. As a result, perhaps we can see stronger competitors next tournament (though presumably the new version will invalidate some of my thinking). The Minos build(outside of inevitable point cost changes) should work quite well in the next tournament. Big creatures with heavy weapons get quite gnarly with the way force is transmitted through limbs, almost enough to make a silver bow useful in melee. Almost.
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Feb 10, 2017 07:34
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Spermy Smurf posted:Dont think the adamantine showed up in the 3rd round fight either. MY fighter creation guide starts and ends with, "Get as drunk and high as possible." I'll let the people decide whose approach is better.
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Feb 10, 2017 18:09
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Spermy Smurf posted:The guide that whoever is writing needs to start with 'have teammates that want to do well and not gently caress around with gimmicks.' Went on with a max biting gimmick, ended up our main damage dealer. 
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Feb 10, 2017 19:10
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Went for a big hammer, tranced the gently caress out.
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Feb 10, 2017 22:41
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so whats going on now
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Feb 11, 2017 03:07
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I dont know. The nerds were supposed to figure out the new version with bards and poo poo. I just run the fights. Edit: And mystery boxes
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Feb 11, 2017 03:16
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titty_baby_ posted:so whats going on now The power of knowledge or How To Have Your Gimmick and Eat It Too 1. Do not be Spermy Smurf or Bad Munki 2. Have teammates that want to do well and cooperate But seriously, you all came here for the sperg. So let's sperg! Here are Christmas is Canceled's builds at the start of the tournament: THE ENTIRE BEE MOVIE SCRIPT: 7 Spear, 1 Dodging, 1 Armor, 1 copper spear, 2 wooden oak spears, & a leather cap Minos Jr.: 5 Hammer, 1 Dodging, copper war hammer, iron chain mail, iron gauntlets, copper cap Karl Barx: 8 Wrestling, 8 Striking, 1 Dodging, 4 Armor, iron helm, iron chain mail, iron leggings, iron gauntlets, iron low boots During my testing, I noticed 4 "niches" that every good fighter (high win rate) fell into. These 4 niches were: -Dodgetank Snake -Skillful Dual-wield+ parrylord -Stop, Hammer Time -Full Armored Fucker I think those builds should be self-explanatory They worked well against one another in order of Dodgetank Snake > Skillful Dual-wield+ parrylord > Stop, Hammer Time > Full Armored Fucker > Dodgetank Snake & Skillful Dual-wield+ parrylord, each having 90%+ winrates against, and the special case of Dodgetank Snake having 70% against Stop, Hammer Time unless Stop, Hammer Time was partially armored, in which case it was closer to 50-50 (This also provided some marginal winrate vs the parrylord, making it closer to a 70-30 matchup in favor of the parrylord). Here's WHY each of those builds are good:
*The Skillful Dual-wield+ parrylord is good because they could reliably parry any weapon-using fighter with less skill than them, coming ahead in the exchange of blows pretty easily *Stop, Hammer Time is good because they have a hammer and are big, which is a big middle finger to all armor. Minos Jr's original build can puncture through full steel armor reliably, even on the largest of fighters. *The Full Armored Fucker is good because armor is cheap, and armor of the same weapon material being used is very difficult to get through unless you say Stop, Hammer Time or get really lucky on the chain mail. Note that this build needs to be larger than a dwarf to work reliably, as size determines armor thickness in part. Here's the HOW behind the WHY those builds are good: HISSSSS: If you have dodging at least 2 higher than your opponent's weapon skill, you'll dodge 90% of attacks. This only becomes more likely the more dodge you have. Because snakes have a lot of points and dodging is cheaper to level than weapons, you basically always have this. Furthermore, things like wrestling, biting, striking and kicking are more difficult to parry, so even having lower skill than your opponent means you'll often get through. *parried*: If you have weapon skill at least 2 higher than your opponent's weapon skill, you'll parry 90% of attacks. This only becomes more likely the more weapon skill you have. Parrying becomes even more likely if you have more than one weapon, because if you've attacked or parried with a weapon recently, it's much less likely you can parry with it again. Furthermore, the high weapon skill means you can get around you opponent's dodging, parrying, or shield score with ease: Having more than 2 on your opponents means they almost will never be able too (except dodging, as it appears having even 1 dodging provides a pretty high chance to dodge attacks while not tired. More dodging lets you go for longer, though). Furthermore, this build will tend to tire out the opponent faster than itself, as I believe parrying costs less energy than making an attack (not sure on that though). How tired/in pain a fighter is compared to the opponent is more important than skill levels, even! STOP: Hammer time requires a big and strong build (like our resident deadly Minotaur) to actually be a threat. Skill is only important for hitting an opponent, all the damage comes from size and impact area; a copper war hammer Minotaur does more than a platinum war hammer dwarf. As I learned in testing against the parry and snakes build, some of its loss can be mitigated through armoring. The blow glances off the iron gauntlets: As I already stated, armor turns away enemies with the same type of material weapon, provided you're big enough and that enemy isn't a hammerer. This build can really do any offense, but wrestling and striking were chosen over a weapon with skill because they were cheap and could go through parries, even if less deadly. Because these were team fights, I could go with the most extreme versions of these builds, such that they would cover one another's weaknesses. So if we were up against a snake, the parrylord wouldn't do well, but the hammerer would have a decent chance and the Full Armored Fucker would outright win. Conversely, going against a bunch of guys who could ignore armor with hammers or steel weapons would be easily out-skilled, as seen in the first fight against the Mafia Hit Squad. If the tournament was individual or 2v2 fights, the ideal builds would incorporate multiple defensive elements instead of relying on a single one. These builds each take a defensive philosophy. The snake thinks, they can't hit me. The parrylord thinks, stick and don't get stuck. The hammerer thinks, the best defense is a good offense (with just a touch of defense). The fucker doesn't think, because the fucker doesn't give a poo poo most of the time. You can have any gimmick you want, so long as it's built on a functional defensive philosophy. Get high skill weapon or dodging if you're small, get armor if you're big. Have a method of ending the fight against at least 1 defensive philosophy. As a side note, shields are middle-of-the-road options better suited for 1v1 fights: More reliable than parrying, but takes away from your offense. Emmideer fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Feb 11, 2017 |
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Feb 11, 2017 03:58
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As some more side notes: I think the ability of a weapon to parry depends partially on how its modeled in terms of length and width? Or something like that; spears and pikes parry better than war hammers, but not as well as a huge sword (given the same skill, of course, but the sword is going to cost more). The blue weapons perform the worst against blue armor. Copper, iron, and steel all perform better against it, for some reason. So the only reason to get blue armor is if you expect blue weapons. Non-blunt weapons of a better material than the opponent's armor will ignore that armor a lot of the time like a hot knife through butter. Copper weapons against copper armor has the most variance is terms of the same type though, for who wins. Fighting skill makes your fighter worse; it's wasted points at best. Armor skill makes armor (or heavy weapons!) less tiring and lets you move faster in it. You'll note Minos Jr's lack of Armor skill is because we wanted him to engage the fight slightly slower than Bee Movie or Karl Barx, since he had the worst defense. Emmideer fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Feb 11, 2017 |
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Feb 11, 2017 04:09
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jon joe posted:As some more side notes: Better than blue weapons do, or better against blue armor than against iron or steel?
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Feb 11, 2017 04:25
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Tunicate posted:Better than blue weapons do, or better against blue armor than against iron or steel? Both! Iron weapons against steel armor will perform worse than iron weapons against blue armor, and iron weapons against blue armor will perform better than blue weapons against blue armor. I'm not sure on a iron vs iron against a blue vs blue comparison though.
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Feb 11, 2017 04:28
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Blue armor is really great for stopping hammers and other blunt things, though. Forgot to add that. Unless it's chain mail or leggings, which provide no protection against bluntness. There's a great my dad post in this thread about how armor works, what it covers and whatnot.
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Feb 11, 2017 04:34
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I guess the real question is what armors are best against fangs. Please never tell, serpentgals are the only fighters I can build.
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Feb 11, 2017 06:21
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Anchors posted:MY fighter creation guide starts and ends with, "Get as drunk and high as possible." Wait a sec...drunk AND high? Craaaaaaaap, I think I just figured out what's been leading to my downfall. :'(
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Feb 11, 2017 06:37
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Hecarim was a Molemarian with literally nothing but armor (and a full suit of it too as far as I remember) but he was basically worthless Like here quote:He has the following equipment. The skills were garbage, but that ate up almost all my points for the first round. I figured that no one would be able to afford better than iron in the first few rounds, and my general plan was to just have a giant rampaging wrestlehorse going through in full armor and grabbing people and basically requiring at least two people to down him. And from my brief memory, pretty sure he went down first or second most fights! Galick fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Feb 11, 2017 |
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Feb 11, 2017 09:15
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The mail shirt was complete redundant (since everything it covers was also covered by the breastplate+greaves combo, and it's not rigid), and a waste of points in that context. Also, molemarians are biters. They will almost always default to biting. Your molemarian was most likely trying to bite people, but had zero skill in it.
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Feb 11, 2017 11:42
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is there gonna be another tournament
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Feb 22, 2017 01:25
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What format do you all want?
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Feb 22, 2017 02:08
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I design a custom gauntlet of custom fights for other players to beat or try to achieve some sort of high score. 
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Feb 22, 2017 02:18
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my dad posted:I design a custom gauntlet of custom fights for other players to beat or try to achieve some sort of high score. If you can do it as macros, that would be awesome.
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Feb 22, 2017 02:21
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i'm fine with something like the one we just did, though it could be cool to mix it up with stage hazards
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Feb 22, 2017 02:26
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Spermy Smurf posted:If you can do it as macros, that would be awesome. Not anytime soon. I'm leading the French army.
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Feb 22, 2017 03:35
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If we're going to do more, small 1v1s might be better without any updates. I really want the new version, though.
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Feb 22, 2017 04:11
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my dad posted:Not anytime soon. I'm leading the French army. So hurry up and surrender and then set up stuff for DF.
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Feb 22, 2017 14:27
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So how is the testing going? Are rock bands a viable team yet?
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Mar 30, 2017 00:09
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Spermy Smurf posted:So how is the testing going? Are rock bands a viable team yet? I was just about to
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Mar 30, 2017 02:52
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Exciting!
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Mar 30, 2017 03:43
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Aww poo poo yeah, we're back on track to murderville
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Mar 30, 2017 22:53
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Don't forget to keep me in the loop!
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Mar 31, 2017 04:01
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Mar 31, 2017 04:19
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I have already convinced myself that I will win this one and not suffer heart shattering defeat like every other time. The power of positive thinking!
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Mar 31, 2017 04:32
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I have convinced myself that I will make a competent build... ...setting myself up for disappointment as usual. Although to be fair, I Bite You did pretty well.
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Apr 1, 2017 08:58
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Great news everyone! Jazz just told me it is all done and he is finishing up the macros part now!
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May 13, 2017 00:26
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