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steinrokkan posted:Actually the solution is to find some living space where Europeans could get along in harmony as peaceful rural workers. Considering rural regions are disproportionately regressive racist shitholes, I'm not sure that's a solution.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:57
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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steinrokkan posted:Actually the solution is to find some living space where Europeans could get along in harmony as peaceful rural workers. Pretty much all of recorded human history has some bad news on that front  EDIT: quote:Note that each rich European country tends to have one main group of poorly integrated immigrants because of this (Maghrebins in France, Turks in Germany, etc.). I think this is because there's an unspoken Standard Operating Procedure of those countries to pick a minority(whether race or religion) and use them as a scapegoat. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 20:57
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blowfish posted:Considering rural regions are disproportionately regressive racist shitholes, I'm not sure that's a solution. Come on, we just need some Raum, where we could all leben.
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Aug 15, 2016 20:59
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Tesseraction posted:The fiscal death spiral of the Eurozone is contributing to racist attitudes but racism and xenophobia is a multi-faceted thing. A Good Solution.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:02
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steinrokkan posted:Come on, we just need some Raum, where we could all leben. It's this Wesen from which the world shall genesen.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:03
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drilldo squirt posted:Muslims aren't the ones making it an issue however. Yes this is entirely the fault of those drat racist Europeans getting themselves killed by religiously-motivated terrorists in their hundreds in an unprecedented ( in the 21st century) wave of religious fanaticism. All those artists and magazine writers who were killed were just forcing European Muslims to cheer for their deaths on social media. And if all those dirty militant atheist women in Cologne and the Netherlands hadn't gone out of their way to get themselves raped there wouldn't be any kind of outcry against people from a certain religious background. drilldo squirt, are you willing to acknowledge that the most common current forms of Islam OR Arab\ North African culture bear any responsibility whatsoever for the current atmosphere of animus towards conservative Muslims? Are you willing to acknowledge that you might have difficulty seeing the flaws and groups that you identify with? You certainly don't seem to have any problem accusing secularists of that form of myopia. And until you're willing to make that much of a rhetorical concession, why should secularists take anything you say at face value?
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Aug 15, 2016 21:04
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Majorian posted:Stuff like banning clothing that is predominantly worn by Muslim women out of piety, for example. That sort of thing signals to the Muslim minority that their values are incompatible with the West's, which is not a message you want to send if you want them to integrate. Religious conservatives should be made to feel a little uncomfortable when they attempt to bring their belief systems into the Public Square. That's a feature, not a bug. Even if this particular fat of banning religious clothing isn't something I precisely agree with, I think the heart of the burqa ban supporters is in the right place. Quite frankly, I don't think extreme religious conservatives should be able to integrate too well into society without abandoning at least some of their toxic beliefs. To an extent I believe the current wave of terrorism is because the process of secularization is working about as well as could be expected given the specific characteristics of the Immigrant populations, and the conservative portions of these populations is constantly angry about that.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:14
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Liberal_L33t posted:Religious conservatives should be made to feel a little uncomfortable when they attempt to bring their belief systems into the Public Square. That's a feature, not a bug. It's a feature which otherizes religious minorities who otherwise don't cause harm to society writ large, and helps DAESH in its recruitment efforts. It's a bad feature. quote:Quite frankly, I don't think extreme religious conservatives should be able to integrate too well into society without abandoning at least some of their toxic beliefs. The fact that you apparently count wearing the hijab as the purview of "extreme religious conservatives" suggests that you're using that phrase extremely loosely...
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Aug 15, 2016 21:17
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Liberal_L33t posted:Yes this is entirely the fault of those drat racist Europeans getting themselves killed by religiously-motivated terrorists in their hundreds in an unprecedented ( in the 21st century) wave of religious fanaticism. All those artists and magazine writers who were killed were just forcing European Muslims to cheer for their deaths on social media. Why should I respond to anything you say when you are just going to weasel out of any response I give?
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Aug 15, 2016 21:17
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Also lmbo at the assumption because I'm Muslim I don't believe in a secular society.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:18
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Majorian posted:Actually it's militant atheism that belongs in the dumpster of history. Most people in the world are theists and most don't use their beliefs to oppress other people. Enforced secularism makes it near-impossible for Middle Eastern immigrants and their children to fully assimilate into Western culture, and is a big part of why France and Belgium are such fertile recruiting grounds for DAESH. Majorian posted:That's simply untrue. The fact that the U.S. has done a considerably better job of bringing Muslims into the fold, yet is considerably less discriminatory in its enforcement of Western norms, is proof of this. I don't mean to poop on America or anything, but I'm a bit wary lately about this idea that America's just simply integrating migrants better and stalling terror that way. Like you use France's supposedly totalitarian Secularism to suggest that its pushing native Muslims towards Jihadism In contrast with the better integration in the US. But by my count the United States is actually the second hardest hit country between the European Union and North America by homegrown Islamic terrorism in terms of body count in the last decade, only behind France. San Bernardino, Orlando, the Boston Bombing, that Muhammad cartoon contest thing, the Fort Hood shootings if you include that, in the last decade most of these attacks have been performed by United States citizens similar to how most of the Paris attackers were French citizens. Considering that America has a pretty small Muslim population both absolutely and proportionally that ain't great. Is secular policy or a specific European problem with assimilation having that big an impact then? Admittedly you could argue that this has as much to do with America's difficulties with Mass Shootings and the profusion of guns, but it looks to me that something like the Boston Bombers aren't that different from that guy who blew himself up in that concert in Germany. khwarezm fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 21:28
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khwarezm posted:I don't mean to poop on America or anything, but I'm a bit wary lately about this idea that America's just simply integrating migrants better and stalling terror that way. On the other hand, your somewhat thought-out post gets in the way of nationalistic dickwaving about how my country is more toleranterer than your country and is therefore invalid.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:30
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Liberal_L33t posted:Yes this is entirely the fault of those drat racist Europeans getting themselves killed by religiously-motivated terrorists in their hundreds in an unprecedented ( in the 21st century) wave of religious fanaticism. All those artists and magazine writers who were killed were just forcing European Muslims to cheer for their deaths on social media. Just be happy your people aren't dying at rates of the 30y war, peace is a privilege!
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Aug 15, 2016 21:33
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khwarezm posted:I don't mean to poop on America or anything, but I'm a bit wary lately about this idea that America's just simply integrating migrants better and stalling terror that way. This is a good question, but bear in mind, this is the U.S. we're talking about. We're the global hegemon, the Great Satan, the invader of Iraq and Afghanistan, the supporter of Israeli apartheid, etc, etc. A lot of terrorist violence in the U.S., homegrown or otherwise, is fueled in part by our foreign policy blunders. Plus, a lot of the examples you posted have taken place during periods of heightened xenophobic rhetoric from the Right in the U.S. - the Tea Party reaction to Obama's election, police violence against ethnic minorities, Donald Trump's successes in the GOP primaries, stuff like that. Quite frankly, I think the fact that there has been so little homegrown terrorism from Muslims in the U.S. until the last couple years, is more telling. blowfish posted:nationalistic dickwaving I'm not meaning to praise the U.S. in making this argument. What I'm saying is basically, "This is how bad France, Belgium, and Germany are at this: we're less bad at it than you are!"
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Aug 15, 2016 21:37
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V. Illych L. posted:there's also a huge gap between the general muslim community in the US, being as i understand it mainly indigenous black people and relatively well-off immigrants, and the mainly working-class or even destitute muslim foreigners in europe What's "relatively well-off" meant to be here? There were plenty of recent Muslim immigrants in my hometown while I was growing up, and they tended to be rather poorer than other people around. In no small part because many were settled there as refugees from the Balkans. And as for "educated" they just had typical levels of education. The adults often had done the equivalent of high school or middle school, with some college educated people here and there, and the kids had gotten to whatever point before things got really bad over there. On the whole they didn't seem particularly poorer or richer, more or less educated, than any other recent immigrants around. And in that area those were usually Latin Americans who'd managed to have other family get a foothold, or people from India and Pakistan who had relatives elsewhere in the state. A lot of them ended up getting military jobs, because we were fairly close to a major all-branch base complex.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:40
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Majorian posted:Quite frankly, I think the fact that there has been so little homegrown terrorism from Muslims in the U.S. until the last couple years, is more telling. The glass of blood is half full. edit: or would half empty be the optimistic one
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Aug 15, 2016 21:42
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Volkerball posted:The glass of blood is half full. Probably the latter. But you have to admit, it's pretty striking how directly homegrown terrorism in the U.S. correlates to upticks in right-wing fuckery.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:45
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Majorian posted:This is a good question, but bear in mind, this is the U.S. we're talking about. We're the global hegemon, the Great Satan, the invader of Iraq and Afghanistan, the supporter of Israeli apartheid, etc, etc. A lot of terrorist violence in the U.S., homegrown or otherwise, is fueled in part by our foreign policy blunders. Plus, a lot of the examples you posted have taken place during periods of heightened xenophobic rhetoric from the Right in the U.S. - the Tea Party reaction to Obama's election, police violence against ethnic minorities, Donald Trump's successes in the GOP primaries, stuff like that. Quite frankly, I think the fact that there has been so little homegrown terrorism from Muslims in the U.S. until the last couple years, is more telling. I tried saying the same thing.
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Aug 15, 2016 21:56
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So islamic terror in the US is caused by the ruthless wars, no sorry "foreign policy blunders", waged against muslim nations? Some might even describe those wars as extremely islamophobic acts commited by America and go on to think that Americans pointing fingers at people from the land of Europe for their islamophobia is a bit rich after completely loving over the Middle East.
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Aug 15, 2016 22:06
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drilldo squirt posted:Also lmbo at the assumption because I'm Muslim I don't believe in a secular society. FYI, the guy you're trying to argue with literally supported machine gunning innocent protestors and is an advocate of military fascist government, so I think you're asking too much out of a guy who doesn't believe in human rights in the first place.
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Aug 15, 2016 22:09
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drilldo squirt posted:It's amazing to me how cowardly racists are in this thread that they can't even own up to their own beliefs and instead post things like. No it was not why it was made nor why it was voted through, but any thing that can be sold as loud spouting of religious stuff trough a megaphone 5 times a day in proximity of any mosque ain't going to fly when put it up to a referendum in any secular country, people only accept churchbells since they are now deaf due to their incessant ringing, they would never fly in a new referendum.
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Aug 15, 2016 22:10
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Majorian posted:It's a feature which otherizes religious minorities who otherwise don't cause harm to society writ large, and helps DAESH in its recruitment efforts. It's a bad feature. The first part of your post seems to be pretty much equivalent to the US republicans back in 2008 arguing " we can't leave Iraq because it will help terrorist recruitment efforts". Even if that argument were true, it's outweighed by other considerations. Also thanks for making yet another false equivalency between the innocuous hijab and the burqa/niqab which are globally recognised symbols of oppression and theocracy, and depersonalize the wearer in a way that a simple headscarf does not. drilldo squirt posted:Also lmbo at the assumption because I'm Muslim I don't believe in a secular society. No, actually I'm assuming you don't believe in a secular society because you tacitly accepted the Assassins veto over free expression by claiming that the Charlie Hebdo writers and Muhammad drawing contest participants brought the acts of violence which they suffered upon themselves by expressing their opinions. Since, y'know, you think secular dress codes are worthy of strenuous condemnation but not European Muslims cheering the death of artists. Liberal_L33t fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 22:13
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Just to be clear I think Europe as a whole can be described as xenophobic in general and islamophobic in peculiar but this argument that America is supposedly less islamophobic is pointless, probably wrong and impossible to confirm.
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Aug 15, 2016 22:14
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Zudgemud posted:No it was not why it was made nor why it was voted through, but any thing that can be sold as loud spouting of religious stuff trough a megaphone 5 times a day in proximity of any mosque ain't going to fly when put it up to a referendum in any secular country, people only accept churchbells since they are now deaf due to their incessant ringing, they would never fly in a new referendum. There's literally nothing that says mosques must blare the call to prayer. Enforcing existing noise ordinances against all religious buildings should suffice. You don't need to block their construction. Anyone who does is a prejudiced piece of poo poo. But, if you are willing to tolerate church bells you drat well better tolerate the call to prayer.
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Aug 15, 2016 22:18
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Liberal_L33t posted:The first part of your post seems to be pretty much equivalent to the US republicans back in 2008 arguing " we can't leave Iraq because it will help terrorist recruitment efforts". Even if that argument were true, it's outweighed by other considerations. I didn't bro, you're lying.
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Aug 15, 2016 22:20
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Fox Cunning posted:So islamic terror in the US is caused by the ruthless wars, no sorry "foreign policy blunders", waged against muslim nations? Some might even describe those wars as extremely islamophobic acts commited by America and go on to think that Americans pointing fingers at people from the land of Europe for their islamophobia is a bit rich after completely loving over the Middle East. You're severely missing the point if you think I'm not condemning the U.S. for its wars, or that the U.S. hasn't done worse things than Europe has done to the worldwide Muslim population writ large over the past couple decades. My point is that, in terms of Muslim immigrants to the West, the U.S. has on the whole done a better job of integrating them, and managed to do so without passing discriminatory laws targeting them for their clothing. Liberal_L33t posted:The first part of your post seems to be pretty much equivalent to the US republicans back in 2008 arguing " we can't leave Iraq because it will help terrorist recruitment efforts". It's not anything remotely close to that. This is one of the dumbest comparisons I've read in this thread, and that's a high bar to clear. Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 22:19
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Fox Cunning posted:Just to be clear I think Europe as a whole can be described as xenophobic in general and islamophobic in peculiar but this argument that America is supposedly less islamophobic is pointless, probably wrong and impossible to confirm. Lets build a satellite mounted racism scanner and scanned both continents from space, to settle this debate once and for all. It's the only way.
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Aug 15, 2016 22:24
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drilldo squirt posted:I didn't bro, you're lying. I realize we're getting into archives territory now but you called them racist for caricaturing Muhammad which, in the context of the attacks, was, well, not the kind of sentiments I would expect to see coming from a committed secularist who doesn't believe in sacred cows.
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Aug 15, 2016 22:41
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Liberal_L33t posted:I realize we're getting into archives territory now but you called them racist for caricaturing Muhammad which, in the context of the attacks, was, well, not the kind of sentiments I would expect to see coming from a committed secularist who doesn't believe in sacred cows. Their illustrations were frequently pretty drat racist actually. Secularism has nothing to do with it.
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Aug 15, 2016 22:44
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Nitrousoxide posted:But, if you are willing to tolerate church bells you drat well better tolerate the call to prayer. As long as it's not too early or loud I would be cool if the call to prayer was somewhat melodic or otherwise non-grating to the ears. Should be in the native language as well though or it would make no sense, though this point is not set in stone. I live close to a cathedral and the bells starts at 7 or 8 am I believe, earlier than that would be kinda lovely in my opinion. Majorian posted:You're severely missing the point if you think I'm not condemning the U.S. for its wars, or that the U.S. hasn't done worse things than Europe has done to the worldwide Muslim population writ large over the past couple decades. My point is that, in terms of Muslim immigrants to the West, the U.S. has on the whole done a better job of integrating them, and managed to do so without passing discriminatory laws targeting them for their clothing. There are no such laws in most of Europe. I do agree with you that integration seems to have worked better in the US though, for whatever reason. Personally I don't see a clear solution to the situation in Europe, there is very little will to meet half-way. Islam is frequently jumbled in with the cultural values that immigrants carry with them that might not have anything to do with Islam so there's not really any true Scotsmen to be found when discussing this either. Looking at the facts such as economic woes, terrorist attacks, and rising nationalism it's hard to be optimistic for the future of integration in Europe. Fox Cunning fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Aug 15, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 22:44
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Majorian posted:Their illustrations were frequently pretty drat racist actually. Secularism has nothing to do with it. Actually they weren't.
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Aug 15, 2016 22:45
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Majorian posted:Their illustrations were frequently pretty drat racist actually. Secularism has nothing to do with it. lol, keep on ruining the concept of racism in order to help your petty arguments
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Aug 15, 2016 22:55
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steinrokkan posted:lol, keep on ruining the concept of racism in order to help your petty arguments If you actively look for racism too hard you'll project it even where none exists.
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Aug 15, 2016 23:02
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The US has, what, less than 1% muslim pop? Please...
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Aug 15, 2016 23:03
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Majorian posted:Their illustrations were frequently pretty drat racist actually. Secularism has nothing to do with it. Don't engage him, he sucks. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 15, 2016 23:50
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steinrokkan posted:lol, keep on ruining the concept of racism in order to help your petty arguments No, of course, how could I possibly see racism there? http://twitter.com/NesrineMalik/status/687274636938186752/photo/1 Fox Cunning posted:There are no such laws in most of Europe. No, but I am talking primarily about places like France and Switzerland (where those laws do exist), as well as Belgium and Germany (where there are high levels of other types of discrimination against Muslims). quote:I do agree with you that integration seems to have worked better in the US though, for whatever reason. Personally I don't see a clear solution to the situation in Europe, there is very little will to meet half-way. Islam is frequently jumbled in with the cultural values that immigrants carry with them that might not have anything to do with Islam so there's not really any true Scotsmen to be found when discussing this either. Looking at the facts such as economic woes, terrorist attacks, and rising nationalism it's hard to be optimistic for the future of integration in Europe. Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head when you talk about people erroneously conflating Islamic cultural values (however one defines that, given the diversity between "Islamic" cultures worldwide) with stuff that people just assume is a "Muslim thing." FGM being a pretty obvious example, where most Muslim countries don't do that, and a lot of non-majority-Muslim countries do. Majorian fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 23:53
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e: double post
Majorian fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 15, 2016 23:56
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Majorian posted:No, of course, how could I possibly see racism there? Apparently you can't do satire without fifty paragraphs of explanations and apologies, because otherwise you'll get crowds of imbeciles and other Majorians busting your rear end.
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Aug 16, 2016 00:06
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Are you for real?
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Aug 16, 2016 00:11
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Do you think caricatures of thick-lipped sambo characters in blackface groping white women would be racist? If yes, why?
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