|
prefect posted:Twelve more achievements to go. Proud 0 achievements haver.
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 12:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 20:52 |
|
|
https://twitter.com/StellarisGame/status/1329396273372401665 From a quick scan, I see "logistic growth curve" for fewer pops, looks like they're finally poaching Carrying Capacity maybe??
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 13:21
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:https://twitter.com/StellarisGame/status/1329396273372401665 Maybe. from both carrying capacity and from what they're describing here, I remain skeptical of the usefulness of determining a flat carrying capacity for each planet. How does the game know whether I intend to make the planet in urban population center or a small rural colony? The change to auto resettlement is awesome. Democracy is useful again.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 13:32
|
|
|
Potato Salad posted:Maybe. from both carrying capacity and from what they're describing here, I remain skeptical of the usefulness of determining a flat carrying capacity for each planet. How does the game know whether I intend to make the planet in urban population center or a small rural colony? In Carrying Capacity your planet's capacity is higher if you build city districts than if you build other kinds of district.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 13:59
|
|
|
Gort posted:In Carrying Capacity your planet's capacity is higher if you build city districts than if you build other kinds of district. Yeah, who knows how Paradox will implement it, but in the mod your carrying capacity per planet isn't flat, it changes based on how you build the planet.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 14:02
|
|
|
Zurai posted:Yeah, who knows how Paradox will implement it, but in the mod your carrying capacity per planet isn't flat, it changes based on how you build the planet. Okay, so it starts with presumption that you would build a rural world, but increases the cap as you elect to build city districts as well?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 14:10
|
|
|
Potato Salad posted:Okay, so it starts with presumption that you would build a rural world, but increases the cap as you elect to build city districts as well? Here's what the mod description says: quote:Capacity is determined by combining the total number of pops and free housing on the planet. Free district slots count as 10 potential housing (2 more than you could get from a max tech city district), meaning that as you develop a planet its capacity will decrease, especially if you build non-city districts. Capacity applies a negative growth modifier that is scaled by the ratio of free capacity left. When your population reaches capacity, the total growth from pops will equal the negative growth from the capacity modifier, and the population will reach equilibrium. Other growth modifiers from medical workers and species traits are multiplied by the effects of capaicity. Exceeding capacity will create scaling emigration push, in addition to stopping growth. So it assumes you'll be shooting for max capacity (more than max for some reason, not sure why, presumably something to do with how the growth curve works) but as you build more "rural" type districts it decreases the capacity.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 14:13
|
|
|
If I read that right, organic hiveminds will be able to use the second pop slot for organic assembly when building a spawn pool, instead of just getting a lame boost to pop growth. Sounds like a nice buff for those poor, robot-less bastards.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 14:15
|
|
|
Libluini posted:If I read that right, organic hiveminds will be able to use the second pop slot for organic assembly when building a spawn pool, instead of just getting a lame boost to pop growth. Yeah, that's exactly what we needed, even stronger hiveminds  They're probably already the strongest empire type rn and that'll make them even more powerful.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 14:19
|
|
|
The idea that normal-rear end empires might have to choose between robotic and organic pop assembly (since the dev diary talked about this as "taking up a slot") rubs me the wrong way.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 14:29
|
|
|
Libluini posted:If I read that right, organic hiveminds will be able to use the second pop slot for organic assembly when building a spawn pool, instead of just getting a lame boost to pop growth. isn't it still the same lame boost to pop growth but now the boost is moved a slot to the right tho? GunnerJ posted:The idea that normal-rear end empires might have to choose between robotic and organic pop assembly (since the dev diary talked about this as "taking up a slot") rubs me the wrong way. i like it, now i don't have to forgo extra pop growth if i don't want to micro robbits
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 14:30
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:The idea that normal-rear end empires might have to choose between robotic and organic pop assembly (since the dev diary talked about this as "taking up a slot") rubs me the wrong way. I assume it's literally just "borrowing" what the Hivemind mod did: using the robot build slot to "build" organic species. The fact that it's an easy change that requires next to no effort has nothing to do with it, obviously.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 14:30
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:The idea that normal-rear end empires might have to choose between robotic and organic pop assembly (since the dev diary talked about this as "taking up a slot") rubs me the wrong way. It's not perfect, but I'll take it over being given the "choice" of "build a shitload of robots or have bad pop growth" which organic empires currently have.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 14:42
|
|
|
yeah, removing robots as a REQUIREMENT to keep up with the Joneses is really nice
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 14:46
|
|
|
Now add buildable psychic popsquote:Organic pops will follow a curve where they begin at standard population growth, increase growth as the approach a midpoint between population and the planetary carrying capacity, then slow down to zero as they reach the top of the curve. Pop Assembly, on the other hand, is generally slow but consistent. The biggest change is that producing a new pop no longer costs a static amount of pop growth - it increases as the empire population does.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 15:04
|
|
|
these do seem like positive changes overall. i wonder if it will actually affect the gameplay loop of "colonize everything you can as fast as possible, watch number get bigger, win"
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 15:09
|
|
|
I really like the change to the resource boosting buildings adding worker jobs to the related district.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 15:44
|
|
|
Gort posted:It's not perfect, but I'll take it over being given the "choice" of "build a shitload of robots or have bad pop growth" which organic empires currently have.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 15:57
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Splicer posted:If I'm reading it right they're poaching carrying capacity AND the more pops you have the longer it will take to make a pop. So if I have an empire of 50 pops and you have 5 then all else being equal you'll grow pops faster than I will. I'm not really sure what the purpose of this is, given that the opposite is true in reality - larger populations grow faster than small ones, assuming food and space isn't a problem. Maybe it's just a rubber-banding mechanic for small empires. I would love to see the death of the planet as the unit of growth though. It makes no sense that 100 pops on 10 planets grow ten times faster than 100 pops on 1 planet. It's the same number of people, they should grow equally fast!
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 16:13
|
|
|
Gort posted:I'm not really sure what the purpose of this is, given that the opposite is true in reality - larger populations grow faster than small ones, assuming food and space isn't a problem. Maybe it's just a rubber-banding mechanic for small empires. Also it will slow down pop growth in the late game considerably.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 16:40
|
|
|
Gort posted:I'm not really sure what the purpose of this is They explicitly list the purpose: reducing the number of pops, since pops are the biggest factor in slowdown.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 16:43
|
|
|
fashionly snort posted:ooooooOoooOooooOOOoo cool. Thanks! Alphamod is the biggest reason I'm unable to play vanilla anymore, it just adds so much to everything that the game feels empty without it. Other people seem to find it overwhelming for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 17:30
|
|
|
Zurai posted:They explicitly list the purpose: reducing the number of pops, since pops are the biggest factor in slowdown. Okay, but you can achieve that more simply by just reducing the max sizes of planets, or the speed of growth in general, rather than having this rather weird rule that your empire grows pops slower if it already has lots of pops.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 18:51
|
|
|
Gort posted:Okay, but you can achieve that more simply by just reducing the max sizes of planets, or the speed of growth in general, rather than having this rather weird rule that your empire grows pops slower if it already has lots of pops. It also helps the whole "more planets/habitats/ETC is always better" issue. It's a good change.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 18:54
|
|
|
Gort posted:Okay, but you can achieve that more simply by just reducing the max sizes of planets, or the speed of growth in general, rather than having this rather weird rule that your empire grows pops slower if it already has lots of pops. Reducing max planet size requires an even more comprehensive rework of the economy than they were already doing, and reducing growth speed proportionately across the board just further encourages the Stellaris equivalent of Infinite City Spam, which further unbalances the game in favor of the player.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:02
|
|
|
Alphamod touches so much stuff I am afraid to install it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:03
|
|
|
Zurai posted:...reducing growth speed proportionately across the board just further encourages the Stellaris equivalent of Infinite City Spam, which further unbalances the game in favor of the player. Yeah this is the only choice if there's going to be any semblance of game balance. Growth could honestly stand to be even faster than it is now, the important part is that it is decoupled from the number of planets/habs/etc. you own, and eventually constrained by something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:05
|
|
|
It doesn't solve the infinite habitat spam, though. An extra habitat will always give your empire more pop growth, so you'll still want as many as you can get.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:08
|
|
|
What is it about pops that makes them cause slowdown?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:08
|
|
|
Eimi posted:What is it about pops that makes them cause slowdown? Because the game has to do daily-ish checks against what they're doing, mostly job related. I'm surprised it has such a big effect but apparently it does.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:10
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:Because the game has to do daily-ish checks against what they're doing, mostly job related. I'm surprised it has such a big effect but apparently it does. huh, why not try and fix that issue instead of making pop growth,etc. behave weird?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:12
|
|
|
Eimi posted:huh, why not try and fix that issue instead of making pop growth,etc. behave weird? I mean, you can't really "fix" the concept of more things to calculate = slower game. Their last big patch did a ton of optimisation (initial game load time, for instance, went down by something crazy like 80% for me) but there's only so many savings to be made by doing the sums better before you have to start looking at reducing the number of sums. More important to me than game speed at this point is ease of management. An empire of a zillion planets and pops is just cumbersome to run at the moment, mainly because of the resettlement overhead of trying to keep everyone employed, the fact that the automation tools do a terrible job of managing planets, and the fact that planets always become unmanageable eventually. Hopefully the next patch making resettlement automatic will solve this.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:19
|
|
|
Splicer posted:Now add buildable psychic pops that's dumb as hell. your empire population really shouldn't have anything to do with pop growth speed at all, just each planet's population. this is not really poaching carrying capacity given that empire population plays absolutely no role in carrying capacity - a 50 pop empire grows much, much faster than a 5 pop one in the mod unless those 50 pops are all shoved onto habitats and there's no more space to grow into. this makes conquest pretty unattractive because your pops at home will magically start growing slower once you conquer your neighbor. i swear the story of stellaris is interesting mechanics implemented almost-correctly, but the "almost" always, always bites you in the rear end Jazerus fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Nov 19, 2020 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:19
|
|
|
Eimi posted:huh, why not try and fix that issue instead of making pop growth,etc. behave weird? It's not really a solvable problem. Even if you left the player to micro all their pops (which I mean, dear god no), the AI still has to run it's empires, and that just will be more computationally complex as you add more elements to manage. I mean it's possible there's some dumb bug that's making everything take way longer to process, but there's no way to know that short of being a Paradox dev.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:26
|
|
|
Performance hasnt really been an issue for my games. I get frustrated with pop resettlement wayyyy before framerate becomes an issue.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:28
|
|
|
When the game was first made you could only have a number of pops equal to the maximum size of the planet, so a 24-size planet could only have 24 pops on it. Now you can have a stupid amount of pops, and the economy is a lot more complex than it was originally, now that there's special resources and Alloys/Consumer goods. Before, everything was just built with minerals!
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:31
|
|
|
Gort posted:It doesn't solve the infinite habitat spam, though. An extra habitat will always give your empire more pop growth, so you'll still want as many as you can get. But each one gives less and less. It's diminishing returns. Is it worthwhile to spend alloys, influence, time, and attention to increase your empire's pop growth by 0.0000001%? Obviously, that's hyperbole, but there will be a point where it isn't worthwhile now, it just depends on where they put the numbers whether that's a reasonable, reachable point, or if it's too low/high.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 19:35
|
|
|
Game is getting a little too real...
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 20:06
|
|
|
I assume you're playing fully automated luxury gay space communists, and that you're going to crush those fools?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 20:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 20:52 |
|
|
Gort posted:Here's what the mod description says: Seems like a fudge factor that might kinda help keep things balanced since the AI and sector automation have zero ability to comprehend game mechanics that aren't hardcoded into their scripting? Giving more pop growth if you haven't built yet means that newly-settled planet will have higher relative growth, since it is nowhere near capacity and doesn't have many districts yet, but a lot of room to expand. Also it means that if you only build districts when you need housing, you'll reach the population cap sooner (vs a planet full of overbuilt ghost cities) without making it too easy to accidentally go way over the limit.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2020 20:41
|
|
