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Blue is the liberal color in Belgium, not the conservative one...but there are no conservatives.
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Jul 1, 2018 12:16
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Grevling posted:Why is that weird? It's the usual colour coding in Europe. Yeah, the green in Finland is the agrarian centrist party who have the most nature exploiting policies.
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Jul 1, 2018 12:20
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Grevling posted:Why is that weird? It's the usual colour coding in Europe. But why blue? Red as the colour of socialism has an established basis, but who picked blue for conservatism?
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Jul 1, 2018 12:35
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Phlegmish posted:Blue is the liberal color in Belgium, not the conservative one...but there are no conservatives. Come to think of it, our blue conservative party in Norway isn't very conservative at all anymore either. The conservatives now are perhaps the Christian party, which is yellow, or maybe the green agrarian party. a pipe smoking dog posted:But why blue? Red as the colour of socialism has an established basis, but who picked blue for conservatism? According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_colour) it started with the Tories in the UK, citing this article as its source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4923050.stm Not completely satisfactory but at least it's one explanation.
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Jul 1, 2018 12:47
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Ponsonby Britt posted:East Asia and South Asia have had direct trade and cultural links stretching back thousands of years - monks from India brought Buddhism to China somewhere around 0 CE, for instance. Buddhism came to China indirectly, through the Middle East/Central Asia. And even then it was heavily influenced by/interpreted through the lens of native Chinese philosophy. The level of direct intellectual contact and interchange between India and China was a small fraction of that between Europe and the Muslim Middle East
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Jul 1, 2018 13:20
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Grevling posted:According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_colour) it started with the Tories in the UK, citing this article as its source: BBC posted:Historically, radical republicans and socialists first adopted a red flag in the 1848 French revolution Related, the UK version of that-cretaceous-coastline-map 
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Jul 1, 2018 13:23
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Phlegmish posted:Blue is the liberal color in Belgium, not the conservative one...but there are no conservatives. What the hell is N-VA if not conservative?
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Jul 1, 2018 13:43
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Phlegmish posted:Blue is the liberal color in Belgium, not the conservative one...but there are no conservatives. Grevling posted:Come to think of it, our blue conservative party in Norway isn't very conservative at all anymore either. The conservatives now are perhaps the Christian party, which is yellow, or maybe the green agrarian party. cgfreak posted:What the hell is N-VA if not conservative? Most blue parties in Europe are liberal-conservatives. Their main opposition are socialists and social-democrats who tend to use red. Traditionally, the political left is all about social welfare and stuff, even if that requires more regulations and more taxes, while the political right is about less regulations, so more personal and economic freedom. In Europe, this tends to strongly correlate with conservatism. "Liberal" comes from liberty aka freedom, so it makes sense that the political right is called liberal. The USA is the only country in the world that managed to inverse the meaning and apply "liberal" to the party that's the most about regulations. tldr; USA political categories are misnamed but USA politicians have been so angry at each other for so long that they don't even notice anymore.
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Jul 1, 2018 13:55
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cgfreak posted:What the hell is N-VA if not conservative? It seems it depends on how broad/vague your definition of 'conservatism' is. The N-VA is right-wing, but not conservative in the ethical sense. Their youth wing has marched in gay pride parades ever since they were founded. You cannot get votes in Flanders by appealing to social conservatism. No one cares about abortion or gay marriage. That demographic just doesn't exist. Even Vlaams Belang doesn't try it, except for the extremely marginal Alexandra Colen*. Interestingly enough, in a country like France that is known for its secularism, you actually do have that conservative contingent that will take to the streets to defend the sanctity of marriage. I assume the Church has some vitality and legitimacy there since it has had to compete with the state for centuries, as opposed to many other European countries where Christianity was hegemonic and/or the state religion, and thus got swept away by the social revolution of the 1960's. * fake edit: after googling it she actually left VB because she got sidelined
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Jul 1, 2018 14:18
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Phlegmish posted:It seems it depends on how broad/vague your definition of 'conservatism' is. The N-VA is right-wing, but not conservative in the ethical sense. Their youth wing has marched in gay pride parades ever since they were founded. You cannot get votes in Flanders by appealing to social conservatism. No one cares about abortion or gay marriage. That demographic just doesn't exist. Even Vlaams Belang doesn't try it, except for the extremely marginal Alexandra Colen*. Like you said social conservatism is simply not a thing in here. I'm sure there are some sanctity of marriage types running around in N-VA/VB/probably even CD&V but they're smart enough to keep their mouth shut because it's electoral suicide. Economically they're nothing but FYGM type neoliberal policies though. BdW even calls himself a conservative. How else would you classify them?
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Jul 1, 2018 14:51
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I don't know...they started out as fairly unremarkable centrist regionalists, now right-wing liberals is probably the best description. The word conservatism has moralistic connotations to me, though of course it's a semantic discussion.
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Jul 1, 2018 15:07
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Phlegmish posted:Interestingly enough, in a country like France that is known for its secularism, you actually do have that conservative contingent that will take to the streets to defend the sanctity of marriage. I assume the Church has some vitality and legitimacy there since it has had to compete with the state for centuries, as opposed to many other European countries where Christianity was hegemonic and/or the state religion, and thus got swept away by the social revolution of the 1960's. Nah, Catholicism has been getting swept away in France too since the 1960s and there's no sign of it stopping. It's just that active practicing Catholics are a small but very loud contingent.
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Jul 1, 2018 15:15
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Phlegmish posted:I don't know...they started out as fairly unremarkable centrist regionalists, now right-wing liberals is probably the best description. The word conservatism has moralistic connotations to me, though of course it's a semantic discussion.
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Jul 1, 2018 15:45
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cgfreak posted:What the hell is N-VA if not conservative? fascist
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Jul 1, 2018 17:53
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Peanut President posted:This ain't the place but I gotta correct you that the foreign team got the poo poo kicked out of them and that's why everyone It's weird how they bothered to be specific in some places (e.g. Helsinki) but just gave up half-assed in other places. Like in Switzerland; Zurich is not SVP, lol, and also there's no party that has a predominantly-grey logo. Maybe it means "No Party Has Majority" but even then it's grossly wrong, as the socialists are in no way the majority party in any canton in Switzerland despite being overall the second largest party. Also lol Ticino and Valais voting for the same party. Maybe I slipped into some parallel Mandela universe where this is the case. Maybe the rest of the map is OK? I don't know much about other countries' politics but Switzerland is grossly wrong.
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Jul 1, 2018 18:31
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at korea that year
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LMAO Bosnia is just the Federation/Republic of Srpska division. The red bits in Croatia in the east mark the extent of Serbian breakaway republic that got snuffed out in 1995. The map is a big joke.
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Jul 1, 2018 18:38
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Why is it a joke? It's not the mapmaker's fault if regions vote according to historical cleavages.
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Jul 1, 2018 19:06
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steinrokkan posted:Why is it a joke? It's not the mapmaker's fault if regions vote according to historical cleavages. They don't. The entire Bosnia uniformly votes for near-fascist nationalist right wing parties led by war criminal cliques that somehow got away. The red bits in the East of Croatia got ethnically cleansed and vote uniformly blue now. edit: the dominant party in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina actually has green as their official colour.
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Jul 1, 2018 19:16
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khwarezm posted:It's just I'm trying to ascertain if this is genuinely some wide ranging misconception we can examine or a few people who's knowledge of geography makes them think Andorra is in Africa thinking all those countries in Asia are the same, innit? I will take any excuse to post this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q_iqrvnC_4
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Jul 1, 2018 19:22
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JfishPirate posted:I will take any excuse to post this video: Given what's happening to the State department under the Trump administration, I'm going to say this was not a parody, but a prophecy. 
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Jul 1, 2018 19:52
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Democrats would be moderate right wingers in most of Europe.
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Jul 1, 2018 19:57
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Cat Mattress posted:Given what's happening to the State department under the Trump administration, I'm going to say this was not a parody, but a prophecy. it's the onion. Actually that doesn't clarify anything, gently caress this hellmouth timeline.
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Jul 1, 2018 19:58
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FreudianSlippers posted:Democrats would be moderate right wingers in most of Europe.
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Jul 1, 2018 21:30
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Saladman posted:It's weird how they bothered to be specific in some places (e.g. Helsinki) but just gave up half-assed in other places. Like in Switzerland; Zurich is not SVP, lol, and also there's no party that has a predominantly-grey logo. Maybe it means "No Party Has Majority" but even then it's grossly wrong, as the socialists are in no way the majority party in any canton in Switzerland despite being overall the second largest party. Also lol Ticino and Valais voting for the same party. Maybe I slipped into some parallel Mandela universe where this is the case. For Germany they took a map of how its 299 electoral districts voted in the 2005 election. This was also the last election where the social democrats came even vaguely close to Merkel's result, nowadays the map would look very different with most of the country being pitch black save for a few red holdouts and a couple of blue districts (the colour of the new far-right AfD) emerging in Eastern Saxony. I'm not entirely sure about Austria, but I think here the map depicts the 2002 results. In both countries it's the same weird mixture of being overly specific and  you already observed.fake e: I finally found a map depicting the 2002 election results for Austria and they're way different, I have no idea what election this map is supposed to show here
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Jul 1, 2018 21:49
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Toplowtech posted:Pretty much center right, and of the kind who always side with the hard right while claiming to be moderate but "you know how coalition building works!". Would typical European center-rights vote the same as the Dems on stuff like gay marriage? I thought maybe the Dems were most akin to economically-right European "liberal" parties. Not true?
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Jul 1, 2018 22:03
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Lycus posted:Would typical European center-rights vote the same as the Dems on stuff like gay marriage? I thought maybe the Dems were most akin to economically-right European "liberal" parties. Not true? Serbia's ruling party is center-right, and our prime minister is an atheist lesbian Croat. e: Of course there's a lot of poo poo under the surface, but the appearances of not being awful pieces of poo poo when it doesn't get in the way of wrecking any form of social support for workers and the poor (and doubly so for poor minorities, tbh) are very strictly kept. my dad fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jul 1, 2018 |
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Jul 1, 2018 22:04
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Lycus posted:Would typical European center-rights vote the same as the Dems on stuff like gay marriage? I thought maybe the Dems were most akin to economically-right European "liberal" parties. Not true? The Dems didn’t have to vote on gay marriage because the courts did it for them. Many of them were against it until 2012 and 13 if not even later. Likewise Merkel allowed gay marriage to happen but didn’t vote for it herself. I do think that the Democrats in a very real way seem to want to be a Euro-style big tent center-center-right party, and not just in a ‘dems suck lol’ joke sense. The people who run the party very clearly despise the left-wing activist part of their base, and they’re obsessed with finding more conservative constituencies to save them from the evil left like upper-middle class suburban Republicans and socially conservative racial minorities, regardless whether there’s any chance of such groups voting for them or even existing in the first place in the sense they think or want them to. Their problem is that unlike the CDU they have no right-wing anchor constituency, which they used to have in the white South but no more icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jul 1, 2018 |
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Jul 1, 2018 22:11
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Over here in Iceland the Conservatives are all mostly ok with gay marriage, at least publicly because being anti-gay would be bad PR.
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Jul 1, 2018 22:24
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Lycus posted:Would typical European center-rights vote the same as the Dems on stuff like gay marriage? I thought maybe the Dems were most akin to economically-right European "liberal" parties. Not true? I’ve seen a lot of Americans think this—maybe Australians too but I don’t know many—but it’s really not the case. Also since "Europe" is not a country so it’s hard to generalize something across such a wide expanse. American leftists seem to think "Europe" is some promised land where all of Bernie Sanders’ dreams came true, and right wing nutjobs think Europe is all left wing because Syrians are raping all of the native women and that Europe has and loves open borders. I can’t speak for every country but the Democrats would generally fit in the left-of-center party PLR. So, basically the same place they are in the US both economically and socially. TBH economically the general Democrat platform is even further left, like halfway between PLR and the Socialist Party. It’s a bit hard to directly compare since there are multiple parties and the policies don’t segregate neatly like in the US. Bernie would be waaay too radical left to be taken up nationally. Vaud might go for him but no one else would. In a lot of ways many European countries are almost uniformly more right wing than the US, eg on policies towards illegal immigrants (and legal ones too for that matter).
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Jul 1, 2018 22:24
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icantfindaname posted:The Dems didn’t have to vote on gay marriage because the courts did it for them. Many of them were against it very late. Merkel allowed gay marriage to happen but didn’t vote for it herself. I agree that the Democrats in a very real way seem to want to be a Euro-style big tent center-center-right party, not just as a ‘dems suck lol’ joke. Their real problem is that they have no right-wing anchor constituency, which they used to have in the white South but no more This makes me think about how their constituency has changed over the last 50 years. . . While the Democrats have cast off their conservative and rural white base, they also must have lost many of their votes among the industrial working class as American manufacturing and unions declined. Today the Democratic coalition mostly seems to be well educated professionals and working class minorities, while petit-bourgeoisie and white tradesmen and workers seem to mostly go Republican.
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Jul 1, 2018 22:33
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Bernie is a mainline social democrat. Basically a left leaning centrist that my mom would vote for because he's inoffensive. Hillary is a conservative.
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Jul 1, 2018 22:35
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FreudianSlippers posted:Bernie is a mainline social democrat. Basically a left leaning centrist that my mom would vote for because he's inoffensive. She WAS a Goldwater girl.
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Jul 1, 2018 22:47
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As a born-in-USA american who has lived in Canada and Europe (mostly France) it is really frustrating and bizarre talking to left of centre americans who treat Canada/Europe/wherever as a True Socialist Paradise That Is Totally Unlike The US, A Third World Hellhole The US has a lot of lovely stuff going on especially in the social safety net, but goddam the rest of the west is not THAT different. Except when it comes to healthcare. gently caress US healthcare.
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Jul 1, 2018 22:50
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FreudianSlippers posted:Bernie is a mainline social democrat. Basically a left leaning centrist that my mom would vote for because he's inoffensive. Here, I fixed this post so that it makes sense for calling Bernie Sanders a mainline social democrat.
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Jul 1, 2018 23:00
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Saladman posted:American leftists seem to think "Europe" is some promised land where all of Bernie Sanders’ dreams came true, Edgar Allen Ho posted:As a born-in-USA american who has lived in Canada and Europe (mostly France) it is really frustrating and bizarre talking to left of centre americans who treat Canada/Europe/wherever as a True Socialist Paradise That Is Totally Unlike The US, A Third World Hellhole American American who has lived over there as well and actually, it is that different (ie better). quote:Except when it comes to healthcare. gently caress US healthcare. Case in point.
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Jul 2, 2018 00:44
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Saladman posted:In a lot of ways many European countries are almost uniformly more right wing than the US, eg on policies towards illegal immigrants (and legal ones too for that matter).  noMaybe if you are talking about racism I'll give you that, but Europe is far more open to immigration than the US. The visa rules are much more relaxed and largely EU mandated, and even relatively immigration-hostile places like the UK or Eastern Europe have fairly open work visa programs, with a guaranteed pathway to citizenship within a couple of years. E: US has regularly-exceeded refugee annual quotas (regional based on migrant origin for maximum racism points), H1Bs being massively exploitative and more like tens of years for a citizenship. And then there's all the detention camps, which only the UK does in Europe. They also don't support refugees anywhere near to the same extent. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Jul 2, 2018 |
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Jul 2, 2018 02:47
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Calais: never heard of it, nor any associated passes
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Jul 2, 2018 03:51
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I don't really think you can compare the US political parties to Europe's very well. The lack of a parliamentary system completely changes how parties form and function, it's apples to oranges Comparing the Democratic Party to Labour is like comparing the Chinese Communist Party to the Communist Party of Canada, superficially similar but structurally completely different
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Jul 2, 2018 04:48
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In conclusion, vote libertarian
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Jul 2, 2018 04:51
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Dreddout posted:In conclusion, vote libertarian That's a paddlin'
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Jul 2, 2018 05:12
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