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KozmoNaut posted:I am a fervent proponent of a properly implemented volume-dependent loudness function. Interesting, I guess that might explain why a lot of people prefer the sound of vintage amps too, especially at lower voilumes. Rather than pad it I'd say just make the EQ defeatable. Should be easy with modern DSP...base it on the Fletcher-Munson curves and give the user control over wet/dry level.  In other news I have come to really love digital volume controls. Early ones were kinda lovely (especially H/K...I love their amps but CHRIST can they gently caress up literally every other part of a receiver  ). Being able to make really fine adjustments, especially at low volumes is just so good.
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May 17, 2016 14:37
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Panty Saluter posted:Interesting, I guess that might explain why a lot of people prefer the sound of vintage amps too, especially at lower voilumes. Rather than pad it I'd say just make the EQ defeatable. Should be easy with modern DSP...base it on the Fletcher-Munson curves and give the user control over wet/dry level. Well it is defeatable using the loudness switch  But I prefer to have it dialed in so I only ever have to touch the volume knob.
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May 17, 2016 16:53
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KozmoNaut posted:Well it is defeatable using the loudness switch Did those old amps have a mixer built into the volume somehow?
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May 17, 2016 18:02
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88h88 posted:It's been a while audiophile thread, what do we think of these? Remarkably cheap considering...
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May 17, 2016 18:11
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Panty Saluter posted:Did those old amps have a mixer built into the volume somehow? Kinda/sorta. In the implementations I know of, the volume pot has an extra tap placed somewhere around 50% of its total travel. This tap controls the level of the loudness circuit, so it goes from full loudness at 0% volume to flat EQ at 50% volume and above. That's how to do it correctly, anyway. On some cheaper amps the loudness circuit is just a straight +6dB boost at 100Hz and 10KHz, regardless of the volume knob's position. Hardly anyone understands how a loudness circuit actually works, which is why most people think of the loudness button as a "more louder better" button, and audiophiles hate it because they think it messes up the "purity" of the signal. But if you have an amp where it's implemented correctly, and you dial it in for your speakers and listening position, it'll give you pleasantly full-bodied sound even at low volumes, without becoming boomy or harsh at higher volumes. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 18:33 on May 17, 2016 |
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May 17, 2016 18:28
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I believe my old HK 430 had a "proper" loudness switch like you're describing. My 2230 is good but gets too boomy at higher volumes which is annoying.
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May 17, 2016 19:01
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KozmoNaut posted:Kinda/sorta. BANME.sh posted:I believe my old HK 430 had a "proper" loudness switch like you're describing. My 2230 is good but gets too boomy at higher volumes which is annoying. IIRC (and we're going back at least 30 years here) Luxman was also one of the few at the time that got it right.
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May 17, 2016 19:14
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Unity Gain posted:IIRC (and we're going back at least 30 years here) Luxman was also one of the few at the time that got it right. Akai, Pioneer, Marantz, Technics, Sony, most of the big brands in the 70s/80s got it right, but a lot of them lacked the mute function, so the cutoff didn't come into play until you were playing seriously loud, even on a 35WPC amp.
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May 17, 2016 19:30
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Well I do remember one company from back in the day that didn't get it right: NAD! Their gear had some unique capabilities: efficient amps that punched above their weight and could handle low(er) impedance speakers, the "Schotz" tuner circuit, etc. But their loudness button was, as you mentioned earlier, just a crude bass boost. Very disappointing at the time.
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May 17, 2016 19:43
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KozmoNaut posted:Akai, Pioneer, Marantz, Technics, Sony, most of the big brands in the 70s/80s got it right, but a lot of them lacked the mute function, so the cutoff didn't come into play until you were playing seriously loud, even on a 35WPC amp. Why would the mute button be preferable to just defeating the loudness circuit? Or am I missing something?
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May 17, 2016 19:46
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Panty Saluter posted:Why would the mute button be preferable to just defeating the loudness circuit? Or am I missing something? A lot of vintage amps have a "mute" button that doesn't actually silence the audio completely. Instead, it attenuates the output signal by a certain amount, commonly -15, -20 or -30dB. By doing this, you gain more usable range on the volume knob at sensible listening levels, in exchange for decreasing the maximum possible volume. The upshot of this is that you can better use the middle portion of the volume knob's travel and you use more travel for the same volume change. The loudness contour is still controlled by the tap in the same position, so you get the same gradual lessening of the loudness effect as before, but at lower power output levels. In the room where I have my Akai+JBL setup, -30dB is perfect for my listening position and preferred listening level. The loudness circuit in the AM-2600 is a bit heavy-handed on the bass, so I knocked it back a couple of clicks on the bass knob, and I think that's pretty much the sweet spot for me. Analog volume controls also tend to have better channel balance in the middle of the scale, they can be as much as 3dB off or even more at very low volumes.
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May 17, 2016 20:49
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KozmoNaut posted:Analog volume controls also tend to have better channel balance in the middle of the scale, they can be as much as 3dB off or even more at very low volumes. Yeah that makes sense. Also that is a reason why I love digital volume controls now 
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May 17, 2016 21:04
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Panty Saluter posted:Yeah that makes sense. Also that is a reason why I love digital volume controls now Technically it's probably a digitally-controlled analog volume control  You basically have a chip with a precision resistor network inside, with a specific resistance for each level of the volume control. Because of modern manufacturing using laser etching, those resistors can have incredibly tight tolerances and perfect channel balance. A truly digital volume control is what happens when you turn down the volume in Windows, it's all software. It works by chucking away the least significant bits, so if you do it using 16 bit precision, you get audible noise fairly quickly. But with 24 or even 32 bit processing, it works really well. I don't know if any current AVRs actually use fully-digital volume controls.
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May 17, 2016 21:34
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Well the volume controls I'm thinking of are the old Marantz AVR which has more than 70 steps - seems like it would be more trouble than it would be worth to have that many resistors rather than just do it in software. The other is my car stereo, which is more recent but the form factor seems like doing it in software would be better as well.
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May 17, 2016 22:27
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I'd be 99% willing to bet they're using a chip full o' resistors. It's no big deal whether you etch 7 or 70 resistors into a chip, as long as you have the physical space, and they're really tiny on account of the low signal levels. And of course you don't need 71 legs on a chip to have 70 levels of volume control, it's all handled inside the chip itself with a handful of logic gates. Hell, it's probably a lot less than 70 resistors and the gates just combine them in the right ways to get the number of volume levels you need. Microelectronics are super neat
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May 17, 2016 23:15
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Josh Lyman posted:For $200, wouldn't you just get one of these? http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/the-best-200-in-ear-headphones/ Because people are stupid and self-professed "audiophiles" tend to fall for any pseudo-science bullshit that strokes their ego enough. Also, it's been a few years since the H-series hybrids were released, there are even better, cheaper IEMs to be had these days.
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May 18, 2016 05:43
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That and how will people know what you've got when they're so tiny?!
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May 18, 2016 08:25
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Synergistic Research seems motivated to try and hit every possible audiophile concept.quote:To optimize performance of the Galileo System’s Electromagnetic Cells, we experimented with a myriad of conductor options. In our TESLA PowerCell, we utilize highly conductive copper with trace amounts of silver. For Galileo System cables, we wanted to challenge assumptions made in the PowerCell’s conductor medium by exploring the effect of precious metals on EM Cell performance. We began experimenting with pure silver, which opened up resolution, but unfortunately it did so in an artificial way by over emphasizing high frequencies at the expense of natural harmonic overtones in the mid-range. We later experimented with strategic layers of both copper and pure silver (as found in our Galileo Universal Cable Cells). This increased high frequency resolution while preserving a natural mid-range. We later experimented with pure gold, pure silver, and pure copper in the Galileo System’s EM Cells. This allowed us to push the envelope with silver, while preserving an amazing level of harmonic richness and texture. Finally, we hit on a strategic combination of pure copper, pure silver, pure gold, and pure platinum. This precious metal matrix, as we now call it, yielded the highest level of resolution we have yet been able to transfer, while preserving a natural balance of low, mid, and high frequencies in the largest, most holographic sound field we have ever created; something Synergistic Research cables are already known for. This is just for their one cable system, and they have several others. From power couplers (their words) to powered interconnect cables to active shielding cables to USB cables to power cables, they have it all, and none of it is anything sane. Even gems like interconnect boxes that go in your speaker cable runs to tie in the individual wires that were all run to the box by cable elevators and all separated from each other because tone or something. quote:As with Galileo System Interconnects, Galileo System Speaker Cables have two Active Electromagnetic Cells- one at the beginning, and one at the end of each cable run. Active EM Cells are voiced with the same Precious Metal Matrix of copper silver alloy, pure silver, pure gold, and pure platinum as found in the interconnects. To elevate performance further, each EM Cell is isolated from ground by four razor sharp stilettos and all strings are suspended by a unique system of cable elevators that maintain uniform distance between strings for effortless sound. Their power cord is even better: quote:Chock full of industry first technologies, including Active Shielded Air Dielectrics, Pure Tungsten signal conductors, and UEF Tuning Circuits, the Element Series power cords promise to expand on the performance of the world class Element Tungsten interconnects and speaker cables- winner of the TAS 2012 Cable of the Year Award. Phono cables from them have 3rd generation quantum tunneling, their digital cables have 'active shielding' instead of being powered repeaters for long distance, and they have bases to set things on that have 'active signal flow control' and 'passive ground planes'. The full impact of their product lines is lost if I try and link to it, mostly because their site worked last week when I was searching for a USB repeater and now the mainpage returns an out of memory error and various other pages are broken, so I can't promise linking to anything will work for any length of time.
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May 18, 2016 09:12
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I've said it before and I'll say it again - if companies can make money selling garbage with bullshit (and non-sensical) descriptions to audiophiles, more power to them. Someone else is just going to come along and scam these idiots out of their money anyways. Just call it an efficient redistribution of wealth.
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May 18, 2016 18:54
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So who's going to join my startup which is basically Lootcrate for audiophiles? I need people to turn driftwood into knobs, gather pretty pebbles, glue tin foil on some board, et cetera. Bonus if you know a cheap source of staples. You know, for cartridge horns.
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May 18, 2016 20:20
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Jerry Cotton posted:So who's going to join my startup which is basically Lootcrate for audiophiles? I need people to turn driftwood into knobs, gather pretty pebbles, glue tin foil on some board, et cetera. Bonus if you know a cheap source of staples. You know, for cartridge horns. man that'd be funny to see happen for real
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May 18, 2016 20:24
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That sounds like fun. I'll take my kids to the beach and let them gather up garbage, then when we get home I'll give them some glue and let them have craft time.
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May 19, 2016 10:18
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Brocialist posted:man that'd be funny to see happen for real  I already made the Wiki.
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May 19, 2016 11:17
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Jerry Cotton posted:
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May 19, 2016 11:25
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KozmoNaut posted:I'd be 99% willing to bet they're using a chip full o' resistors. It's no big deal whether you etch 7 or 70 resistors into a chip, as long as you have the physical space, and they're really tiny on account of the low signal levels. Makes sense w/r/t using gates and resistor combos. Still seems like everyone would be on software volume by now...unless resistor banks are cheaper (existing product and all) and/or more sonically transparent (which I kinda doubt if the software works with at least 24 bit precision). Panty Saluter fucked around with this message at 19:14 on May 19, 2016 |
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May 19, 2016 13:18
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Panty Saluter posted:Makes w/r/t using gates and resistor combos. Still seems like everyone would be on software volume by now...unless resistor banks are cheaper (existing product and all) and/or more sonically transparent (which I kinda doubt if the software works with at least 24 bit precision). Your new av is awesome. Just wanted to remind you guys the audio player I use has 64bit precision for its internal volume control.
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May 19, 2016 14:20
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"Son, there are more levels of volume in this stereo than there are grains of sand on the beach."
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May 19, 2016 14:25
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..and only one of them is correct. *spends next 5 years trying to find perfect volume level*
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May 19, 2016 15:45
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Waldo P Barnstormer posted:Your new av is awesome. Danke  Also the correct volume is always at unity gain, your neighbors and hearing damage be damned 
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May 19, 2016 19:16
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Panty Saluter posted:Danke No complaints here :iamafag:
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May 19, 2016 19:19
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EL BROMANCE posted:..and only one of them is correct. *spends 5 years finding perfect volume level only to realise it's an odd number. Shoots self*
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May 20, 2016 10:13
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88h88 posted:*spends 5 years finding perfect volume level only to realise it's an odd number. Shoots self* This is why I prefer either 100% analog volume control or ones with arbitrary volume bars instead of the numbers. My old B&O TV must have been designed by someone with the same annoyance, because the volume level was shown as 0-100, even numbers only. It was glorious. E: My sister is much worse about it, though. So if we're driving somewhere, I'll put the radio volume at like 13 and see how long it takes for her to break down and change it. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 10:57 on May 20, 2016 |
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May 20, 2016 10:46
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Everyone already knows the proper volume level:
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May 20, 2016 12:39
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I have one of these on my battle vest: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-11-Switch-embroidered-Cloth-Patch-6CM-X-6CM-2-1-2-X-2-1-2-Spinal-tap-/261664050352
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May 20, 2016 12:47
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KozmoNaut posted:I have one of these on my battle vest: ... SWITCH??!?
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May 20, 2016 13:03
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Wasabi the J posted:... SWITCH??!? Yeah, it's either OFF or 11, who needs anything else?
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May 20, 2016 13:57
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I am not knocking the brand but jeeze Louise pricy http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/6/3/11850090/klipschorn-70-anniversary-special-edition-speakers Google now new aelwction
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Jun 4, 2016 05:20
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They're hella good speakers, though. If you can place them correctly.
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Jun 4, 2016 08:07
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galahan posted:I am not knocking the brand but jeeze Louise pricy http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/6/3/11850090/klipschorn-70-anniversary-special-edition-speakers Google now new aelwction
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Jun 4, 2016 11:51
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Klipshorns are the opposite of audiophilery. They're just huge and pricey.
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Jun 4, 2016 14:34
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