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Suxpool posted:Imagine if the Union just had the sense to be like "yo we're sending Bremer Dan Gorst to fight for us in the circle" every time the North decided they had beef. No more beef. The thing is, usually the winning side doesn't want to throw away their advantage to have a duel. The only way this could happen is when the winner has no option to refuse. West and Ninefingers agreed, because the Union soldiers were about to gently caress of to Adua the next day. Black Dow had been warned by Ishri not to duel Calder, but given that the latter was a well-known coward, refusing would hurt the former's reputation. It only worked with Stour, because he is a dumbass and he imagined this is what the Bloody-Nine would do. Which he wouldn't, most likely.
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Sep 24, 2019 08:27
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Fly Molo posted:Yeah, based on that prophecy the Weaver is 100% Bayaz. He’s engineering a massive crisis, and I think that’s why he wanted the Burners to seize Savine. Glokta might be on in it (with Bayaz promising Savine won’t be harmed), or perhaps not. so basically, bayaz has decided that capitalism will grind the poor into an even finer paste than feudalism and is trying to effect the transition
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Sep 24, 2019 08:56
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In addition to other evidence people have mentioned and it being part of Bayaz's MO, the Weaver was mentioned as being bald. Sure that in itself wouldn't mean that much, but given that is one of the first things we learn about Bayaz's appearance way back in The First Law, and the Weaver's mentioned in the same breath as having a bottomless sack of money, I think it's important. Most of the way through the book. Enjoyed it. Some minor criticisms: * The most serious criticism: Joe doesn't need to be so heavy-handed when introducing you to a new character. We didn't need 100 internal reflections/jokes about how Orso is a lazy drunk, or how Broad gets angry, or how Savine is extremely avaricious. Even if you toned it down a bit it'd still be too on the nose. This stopped being an issue 25% in or whatever, really, once he'd established the stable of PoV characters and he began to slowly draw out nuances, and I'm sure it'll be a minimal issue in the following books. * A slight criticism regarding the setting: some things that drive how people think are conspicuously absent in the First Law world. We have nationality, race, class, and sex, but religion is conspicuously absent. The current relatively low levels of theism in our world are a historical aberration (and it's still very important), and religion is close enough to a human universal that its minimalism in this setting is noticeable. So, too, is the absence of references to intellectual currents - there's a bit of this with hints of economic thought. I suppose this latter point is more forgivable, though, since it would only ever be a minority of people who regularly think about that kind of thing and act on it. I make this criticism acknowledging unnecessary detail for a setting can actually hurt a story, and authors shouldn't put the construction of a toybox world ahead of the literary essentials. However, I think in a setting grappling with epochal changes the relevance of these elements of a world would be significant. * A very slight, gossamer-thin criticism which I don't care much about at all: the technology anachronism is a little jarring. Actually, what probably bothered me more than having 18th century textile mills appearing in a ~15th century setting was that the military stuff is all over the place. Shieldwalls, to my limited understanding, stopped being a thing past the early Middle Ages. I would've thought the Union would also have heavy styles of plate armour which would laugh off most weapons (although unlike in The First Law the armour does save people several times). I'd be interested if anyone knows a bit more about military history and could talk more about this - mainly because I'm interested in how tactics transitioned. But this is, as I said, a very minor criticism - technological verisimilitude is way down the list of matters which are important for a good book. To repeat, I liked the book, and these are niggling points. Final thought: Of the new characters, I probably liked Orso the most. People are, naturally enough, interpreting him as a facsimile of Jezal, which I don't think is quite fair - Orso matching a propensity for debauchery and indolence with some occasional good judgment shows he might amount to much more. Maybe we'll finally get an Abercrombie character who doesn't backslide too much! Neurosis fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Sep 24, 2019 10:54
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Doctor Jeep posted:so basically, bayaz has decided that capitalism will grind the poor into an even finer paste than feudalism and is trying to effect the transition yeah, pretty much IMHO. It also feels like it's partially motivated by irritation and impatience, Bayaz clearly hates having to grant any concessions to the Lords, and loving them over repeatedly made him very happy in LAoK. I think he's just tired of having to accommodate a bunch of ants with delusions of grandeur and remember their names, when they're standing in the way of His Progress. He seems less patient this go-around, too- he spent years setting up the pieces to make Jezal king, while this time be basically arrived, took one look at Orso, went "eh, good enough" and killed Jezal. Maybe his success over Khalul is making him reckless, and he certainly seemed to be a big fan of "creative destruction" in LAoK in order to gently caress over the nobles for a few decades and crush their spirit. plus, he wears a loving suit now. Neurosis posted:* A very slight, gossamer-thin criticism which I don't care much about at all: the technology anachronism is a little jarring. Actually, what probably bothered me more than having 18th century textile mills appearing in a ~15th century setting was that the military stuff is all over the place. Shieldwalls, to my limited understanding, stopped being a thing past the early Middle Ages. I would've thought the Union would also have heavy styles of plate armour which would laugh off most weapons (although unlike in The First Law the armour does save people several times). I'd be interested if anyone knows a bit more about military history and could talk more about this - mainly because I'm interested in how tactics transitioned. But this is, as I said, a very minor criticism - technological verisimilitude is way down the list of matters which are important for a good book. Eh, that part I didn't have much of a problem with, because based on the architecture, infrastructure, metalworking, etc. the Union kind of seemed like an advanced Early Modern society in The First Law, just without coal/gunpowder. Technology doesn't advance along a common tech tree, it just kinda spurts and grows when the circumstances are right. I could see the Union from the First Law advancing pretty quickly once a few smart guys came along and said, holy gently caress, look at what coal can do! They still haven't figured out guns and they think cannons are kind of useless in war, they've still got some catching up to do.
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Sep 24, 2019 15:33
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Funny fact, I spend way to much on these books because I first listen to the audiobook and then read the print version. Anyway, so as an American listening to Steven Pacey I thought Jezal’s son was named “Also,” which I thought was weird. Now imagine my surprise when I started reading the print book and learned his name was really Orso. Edit Added a spoiler. It’s a weird thing to spoiler because it has nothing at all to with the plot, just how I perceived the name of a character as spoken by Steven Pacey versus the character’s actual name; however, I just want to be extra careful in case someone hasn’t started reading the book and does not want to know who the characters are. I know. It’s a weird thought, but again, just in case. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Sep 24, 2019 |
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Sep 24, 2019 15:43
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Fly Molo posted:Eh, that part I didn't have much of a problem with, because based on the architecture, infrastructure, metalworking, etc. the Union kind of seemed like an advanced Early Modern society in The First Law, just without coal/gunpowder. Technology doesn't advance along a common tech tree, it just kinda spurts and grows when the circumstances are right. I could see the Union from the First Law advancing pretty quickly once a few smart guys came along and said, holy gently caress, look at what coal can do! They did test cannons in The Heroes. In Red Country, Pike gave Cosca some grape shots. I suppose guns should appear pretty soon.
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Sep 24, 2019 21:24
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Fly Molo posted:Eh, that part I didn't have much of a problem with, because based on the architecture, infrastructure, metalworking, etc. the Union kind of seemed like an advanced Early Modern society in The First Law, just without coal/gunpowder. Technology doesn't advance along a common tech tree, it just kinda spurts and grows when the circumstances are right. I could see the Union from the First Law advancing pretty quickly once a few smart guys came along and said, holy gently caress, look at what coal can do! Oh of course, but we're seeing a millennium difference between some of the military aspects. And some military advances would be coupled directly with other advances (eg metallurgy). But Joe clearly wanted the feeling of scandinavian/Germanic/highlands warriors, and it feels fine in setting, so, all good.
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Sep 25, 2019 02:16
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Suxpool posted:Imagine if the Union just had the sense to be like "yo we're sending Bremer Dan Gorst to fight for us in the circle" every time the North decided they had beef. No more beef. Squeaky one of the most feared Names in the North.
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Sep 25, 2019 11:20
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Sep 25, 2019 20:10
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lmao he's probably given that speech a hundred times, since the stone age "Dozens" Bayaz nodded to the seasick northman, "tens of dozens"
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Sep 25, 2019 21:16
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:lmao he's probably given that speech a hundred times, since the stone age If you live forever, just come up with one good speech and you’re set.
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Sep 25, 2019 22:06
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Gantolandon posted:The thing is, usually the winning side doesn't want to throw away their advantage to have a duel. The only way this could happen is when the winner has no option to refuse. West and Ninefingers agreed, because the Union soldiers were about to gently caress of to Adua the next day. Black Dow had been warned by Ishri not to duel Calder, but given that the latter was a well-known coward, refusing would hurt the former's reputation. The bloody nine absolutely would go into a circle when he's winning, he was a loving psychopath. Logen, probably not, Lamb definitely not. Read the short story collection if you haven't, there's a good story there with bethod and the bloody nine
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Sep 26, 2019 01:52
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That's a really subtle way to underline how hollow and perfunctory the whole thing is for Bayaz. Nice. Really interested to see what Bayaz meant by engineering a temporary suspension of hostilities with Khalul. Quite probably a euphemism for helping Ferro remove him from power such that he's not a present threat, but I woulda thought Bayaz would be going all out for the kill.
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Sep 26, 2019 03:50
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Neurosis posted:Really interested to see what Bayaz meant by engineering a temporary suspension of hostilities with Khalul. Quite probably a euphemism for helping Ferro remove him from power such that he's not a present threat, but I woulda thought Bayaz would be going all out for the kill. The way he left it with Ferro, combined with the way Ferro was left after handling The Seed, I don't think she was much interested or in need of any help from Bayaz. The impression I took from it was she had basically become Tolomei in physical terms.
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Sep 26, 2019 07:43
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Neurosis posted:Oh of course, but we're seeing a millennium difference between some of the military aspects. And some military advances would be coupled directly with other advances (eg metallurgy). But Joe clearly wanted the feeling of scandinavian/Germanic/highlands warriors, and it feels fine in setting, so, all good. Obviously it's a pastiche of various sources but the union/northmen battles have a direct parallel in the Jacobite risings. The battle of Culloden featured shield walls and massed charges of axe and sword wielding warriors versus massed pikes and muskets; the union is underdeveloped militarily if anything.
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Sep 26, 2019 09:44
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Rustybear posted:Obviously it's a pastiche of various sources but the union/northmen battles have a direct parallel in the Jacobite risings. I have to admit I struggled briefly when the text shared some musings about what is essentially the invention of the train, in a world in which the military of the nation in which said train was invented is just not ‘lagging behind,’ but legit has no gunpowder weapons.
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Sep 26, 2019 14:07
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ZombieLenin posted:I have to admit I struggled briefly when the text shared some musings about what is essentially the invention of the train, in a world in which the military of the nation in which said train was invented is just not ‘lagging behind,’ but legit has no gunpowder weapons. I don't think The Union has the natural resources necessary to go too hard on gunpowder. They test the cannons in The Heroes, and they have functioning muskets in Red Country, but in the original trilogy when Glokta is investigating how Bayaz blew a hole in the side of the tower, the Adeptus tells him the quantity needed to do such a thing would require every grain of powder in The Union. Salt peter or whatever it is they're lacking is only found in Gurkhul, and only imported at great cost. Also I might be misremembering this but didn't they deploy cannons around the town when Orso came to squash the uprising?
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Sep 26, 2019 15:01
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Suxpool posted:
Yes
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Sep 26, 2019 16:15
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Terror Sweat posted:The bloody nine absolutely would go into a circle when he's winning, he was a loving psychopath. Logen, probably not, Lamb definitely not. Read the short story collection if you haven't, there's a good story there with bethod and the bloody nine He would absolutely get into a single combat if it was either that or no fight at all. But if he was already slaughtering the enemy soldiers, there would be no way to convince him to stake the result of the battle on a fight in the Circle. He wasn't a guy who could be convinced to forego an opportunity for mass murder,
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Sep 26, 2019 18:13
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I’m a little disappointed that abercrombie is keeping this trilogy set in the union pretty much. There’s a whole world out there that he set up. He doesn’t like writing other cultures so he won’t write any stories in the gurkish empire, but still, there’s still the old empire and the entire western frontier he could write about, plus all the stuff in Italy. There’s been at least 3 entire books worth of war in the north, it all feels so samey
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Sep 27, 2019 04:31
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The weirdest thing to me is that Glotka hadn't told Sabine how the world really works. "Stay away from Valant and Balk" is not sufficient warning given the circles she runs in and if anything her lack of dealings with them would be more likely to find other ways to gain influence over her. There is no way that Glotka doesn't have the "evil wizard props up this entire facade" chat with her prior to the events of this book.
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Sep 27, 2019 13:46
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:The weirdest thing to me is that Glotka hadn't told Sabine how the world really works. "Stay away from Valant and Balk" is not sufficient warning given the circles she runs in and if anything her lack of dealings with them would be more likely to find other ways to gain influence over her. There is no way that Glotka doesn't have the "evil wizard props up this entire facade" chat with her prior to the events of this book. Well, he did not tell her who her father really is either, and similarly not even Jezal tells Orso, his son and nominal inheritor of the Union. Hell, Orso has never even been warned to try really hard not to get on Bayaz’s bad side prior to Orso’s encounter with Bayaz near the end of the book. My question is really: where did Sabine get her initial capital to be a venture capitalist if not from a bank? Glokta himself? If that’s the case Glokta is part owner of everything Sabine does and would theoretically be in the perfect position to say, “we will not do business with Valant and Bulk, ever.” Which incidentally actually seems like a bad idea. Glokta should know the best strategy would be to do enough business with them for them to at least think they have the goods to influence Sabine. Becoming the Union’s equivalent of a billionaire on totally in your own seems like you are just painting a target on your back.
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Sep 27, 2019 14:39
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:The weirdest thing to me is that Glotka hadn't told Sabine how the world really works. "Stay away from Valant and Balk" is not sufficient warning given the circles she runs in and if anything her lack of dealings with them would be more likely to find other ways to gain influence over her. There is no way that Glotka doesn't have the "evil wizard props up this entire facade" chat with her prior to the events of this book. Most likely, he's afraid to tell her more. If Bayaz and Sulfur ever got an idea she knows about them, they could consider her dangerous and either try to recruit her more forcefully, or remove her. Besides, he knows she's ambitious, competitive and bored, which is a dangerous combination. Savine (at least before her visit to Valbeck) is a person that could think she can take an immortal, narcissistic mage.
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Sep 27, 2019 21:44
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Yeah that's true. I expect Jezal to be too cowardly to tell Orso, but I feel like Glotka should know better. Not only is "NEVER use this bank, don't ask me why" creating a mystery for her to solve, if she's a major player in Union Finance but spurns dealing with Bayaz's bank as a rule then she's putting herself on the radar anyway. I think the repetition of the Northern war plot is frustrating because we've gotten a picture of the wider world. It's fine if it's just table-setting, but if this while trilogy is just a view from the puppets gallery I'll be sad. Did the Union retake Dagostka? Did they lose Westport? What's up with the old empire? There's so much of a bigger world out there that I want more of and I'm afraid they're just sending Kvote back to college. My hunch/hope is that the rest of Magi are coming for Bayaz like he led them against the Maker, but he's too powerful to confront directly. I don't think that he killed Jezal, despite his appearance of acceptance. Union stability is his whole thing. A succession is chaotic. A succession crisis where the crown prince is challenged by a popular young Lord is more chaotic. A civil war is max chaos. Powerful families can hold generational sway over a democracy, but it's no substitute for autocracy especially if you don't give a poo poo about the pesants. I think that Bayaz was planting seeds for eventual succession options like he did with Jezal but someone forced his hand. That said, I do think that Bayaz was the Weaver and he touched off the revolt to undermine peasant solidarity. He led the breakers to start the revolt, hosed off and let the burners take over and make a mess of everything, then had everyone hanged. I don't think we'll see any other well intentioned revolts in the near future.
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Sep 27, 2019 22:49
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:Did they lose Westport? That question was actually answered. They're still holding Westport and managed to negotiate neutrality of Sipani.
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Sep 27, 2019 23:07
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See, I had Sabine down as the bald weaver with the bottomless purse. She's shaven headed, has interests in the cloth industry among many others and has an infinite pile of money. But I might just be barking up the wrong tree entirely here. I also think Bayaz is too obvious for the weaver. Sulfer, maybe, he was sniffing around the north, but wasn't he also surprised by all the breakers shenanigans and had to leave Calder early?
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Sep 27, 2019 23:57
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even if Savine is the wealthiest (known) private citizen in The Union, she would never hold a candle to Valint & Balk. how would having her under his thumb help Bayaz in any way?
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Sep 28, 2019 01:55
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ZombieLenin posted:My question is really: where did Sabine get her initial capital to be a venture capitalist if not from a bank? Glokta himself? If that’s the case Glokta is part owner of everything Sabine does and would theoretically be in the perfect position to say, “we will not do business with Valant and Bulk, ever.” Eh? Lending someone money to invest does not give you an ownership interest in what is invested in. Except for under certain Islamic finance arrangements, anyway.
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Sep 28, 2019 02:23
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I figured that the weaver was someone who is charismatic and leads through devotion to him. We don't know what khalul looks like, but he could be bald and he definitely has bottomless pockets
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Sep 28, 2019 20:50
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Neurosis posted:Eh? Lending someone money to invest does not give you an ownership interest in what is invested in. Except for under certain Islamic finance arrangements, anyway. Yo Neurosis posted:Eh? Lending someone money to invest does not give you an ownership interest in what is invested in. Except for under certain Islamic finance arrangements, anyway. I am not saying it does; however, from personal experience when family members lend money to other family members to start a business, it is a partnership—even when your parents don’t do anything but provide the seed capital. Isn’t this exactly what Sabine does? She’s a venture capitalist essentially. She provides the investment capital to the inventors and businessmen who then set up whatever business in exchange for part ownership. Stocks work like this too. So I am kind of confused why you are acting like it’s ridiculous that, if Glokta provided the initial investment capital to his daughter, he might actually own part of her interests.
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Sep 28, 2019 21:29
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We're not talking about what Savine does. We're talking about what Glokta, who may have lent money to Savine, owns. And it's unusual for a lender to have ownership of the thing acquired with lent money. At most they'll have a security interest which lets them sell the thing acquired tp recover outstanding money. Sure this lending occurs in a familial relationship and there may be more to it but there's no evidence for that and it'd be unusual in the commercial relationship.
Neurosis fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Sep 29, 2019 |
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Sep 29, 2019 00:52
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My biggest question is why Shivers left Calder for the Dogman. There has to be a story there but nobody ever even looked twice. Also, the religion issue has always bothered me too. I can sort of understand why there's not religion in the Union, maybe Bayaz took some issue with Khalul's strategy and actively suppressed it. But there's really no excuse for the North. It just doesn't make sense that a fairly undeveloped society based almost entirely around raiding and warfare doesn't come up with either the extra war excuses or some kind of life after death that religion offers. If someone even casually mentioned Valhalla or Ragnarok to some of these dudes I guarantee they'd be all about it from the get go. It's almost even worse that they actually have literal Gods in Eus and whatnot but no one has ever bothered to build a temple. PopetasticPerson fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Sep 29, 2019 |
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Sep 29, 2019 04:38
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I think the simplest explanation is just that Abercrombie isn't really interested in exploring religion and religious themes in these books. Personally I'm fine with that.
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Sep 29, 2019 05:17
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PopetasticPerson posted:My biggest question is why Shivers left Calder for the Dogman. There has to be a story there but nobody ever even looked twice. Yeah very little info is given there. I'd say he was never really Calder's man as much as he disliked black dow, but he did go all the way to the west to find logen for him. I guess my way to reconcile that would be personal reasons - he wanted to see how he'd feel seeing logen again, and he truly didn't care any more once he did. I wonder if we'll get any POVs from the last generation. I'm guessing no. It'd be cool to see Calder's perspective now that he's no longer in charge but I guess clover will be our eyes there.
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Sep 29, 2019 05:24
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PopetasticPerson posted:My biggest question is why Shivers left Calder for the Dogman. There has to be a story there but nobody ever even looked twice. At the end of red country he’s given up on his hatred and is kinda going back to the way he was before best served cold, he even smiles. So he decides to follow someone he actually likes and will treat him with respect
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Sep 29, 2019 05:59
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A Little Hatred thoughts: Is the Weaver a Dragon Cultist from Red Country? I am re-reading it after finishing off a Little Hatred and they have alot of gold and are bald and seem to preach equality. Plus, they would have a hell of a chip on their shoulder regarding the Union. At the very least, it would get us away from the North-centric plot lines. Granted, ancient Imperial coins may be a bit odd in the Union.
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Sep 29, 2019 07:34
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to be fair The Dogman is the only person in the world respected by everybody on every side even Black Dow wouldn't hear a bad word said about him
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Sep 29, 2019 07:36
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PopetasticPerson posted:My biggest question is why Shivers left Calder for the Dogman. There has to be a story there but nobody ever even looked twice. It was probably finding Logen and closing that chapter in his life. Plus there's what Rikke said about him being lost but still being there inside, maybe he saw the Dogman as someone he actually wanted to follow or as the least bad of all the Northern leaders/warlords. People probably did look twice but let's be real here, if Calder was gonna send a spy he wouldn't send Shivers, the heavily scarred man with a reputation for brutality and a Name, all of which makes him stand out, the opposite of what a spy should be like.
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Sep 29, 2019 10:43
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Doctor Jeep posted:the opposite of what a spy should be like.[/spoiler] S'what makes him such a good spy, like
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Sep 29, 2019 15:51
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I’ve always assumed the northerners have at least some kind of rudimentary religion. The way they use “the dead” in the same way one could use “God” in their idioms, by the dead, the dead only know, etc, kind of suggested to me some kind of ancestor worship or veneration. The phrase “the dead only know” shows up a few times and doesn’t make sense if they don’t believe in some type of afterlife. I think the materialism of the Union is supposed to be a juxtaposition of the heavily religious Gurkhul. He doesn’t seem to do much with the idea since we don’t see anything from the Gurkish perspective, but the idea is there.
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Sep 29, 2019 19:43
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