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silvergoose posted:Not quoting, but I'm only talking about the concept of theme over mechanics. I know Sonar is a competitive game, but I'm going to use it as an example. I consider it reasonably thematic but the co-op dynamics within a team are loving glorious. The time pressure, everything breaking down around you, and being forced to work as a team work great together. Mechs vs Minions is a bit weaker as a game, but I would argue thematically as strong as those games you mentioned (though the theme is more "cute" than zombies and poo poo", and single player it would probably be a massive slog because, as a player, you do end up knowing your own mech best, and it would take a lot more computing power to keep switching between them all the time (which, I expect, would be a rather tedious experience). I am tempted to believe that where your statement holds true, it's because of weak game design. Think also of D&D. Even in games where there is zero intra-party conflict, the story-telling experience is improved because you're all playing together. Of course, expecting a random 20 bucks game to have the depth of D&D is not feasible, so there may very well be games where it's impossible to achieve to good blend of theme and gameplay that I'm kinda demanding in this argument. A game like this is hard to get, so there will be very few of them.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:08
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(I know it's because there's no one to play with)
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CommonShore posted:I had a good time playing Arkham Horror solo for a while when it was all new to me basically for the reasons described (including no one to play with). It was fun when it was thematic, but I stopped when I caught myself just skipping to the bottom of the card for the effect. Yeah but I'm kinda not counting coop games, because they are explicitly playable solo because they're just puzzles (hanabi and space alert and others that counter this not included, of course).
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Jan 13, 2017 16:16
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silvergoose posted:Now there's a thought. What if all games that people love because of the theme/story over mechanics (Betrayal, every zombie game in existence, I dunno Cosmic, etc) should actually be played solo? Like, would all of them suddenly turn into mildly playable games because really, you're just playing to see what happens, not competing to win with other players? Solo Betrayal is much worse than with other people; the foregone conclusions are even more obvious.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:16
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Dancer posted:I know Sonar is a competitive game, but I'm going to use it as an example. I consider it reasonably thematic but the co-op dynamics within a team are loving glorious. The time pressure, everything breaking down around you, and being forced to work as a team work great together. Mechs vs Minions is a bit weaker as a game, but I would argue thematically as strong as those games you mentioned (though the theme is more "cute" than zombies and poo poo", and single player it would probably be a massive slog because, as a player, you do end up knowing your own mech best, and it would take a lot more computing power to keep switching between them all the time (which, I expect, would be a rather tedious experience). Completely agreed; competitive games that are "dripping with theme" and therefore might benefit from playing solo "just for the experience" are probably all badly designed games. But that's fine! I'm just curious if this concept actually holds water or not.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:17
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I don't play stuff solo because i always have to play with a really terrible person.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:45
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silvergoose posted:Not quoting, but I'm only talking about the concept of theme over mechanics. If I were playing that game with other people, there's no way I would have triggered that win condition there, for sure. I think being given that opportunity is a big part of whether these kinds of games hold up in groups. Everyone has to be a little bit of a DM or they can fall apart. I would say, if you're the kind of person who has 100s of hours in Civ with no completed games, these co-op tile exploration games are probably exactly the right thing for you. They are more about discovery and exploration than being good and fair mechanical experiences. If you get heated up when your superior mechanical play isn't rewarded, there are plenty of amazing games for that, too. It's all about knowing what it is you like about games and finding those experiences. I had more fun last night rebasing the enemies for MoM than I have had in dozens of games of Powergrid, even games I won running away. Really what your brain is after is novelty. Realizing that can help you better choose games and save tons of money. At some point it clicked that I wasn't buying so many Euros because I loved Euros. I was sinking a bunch of money into one after the other because all I really wanted was new experiences, and those games don't hold up so well past 2-3 plays for that kind of mentality.
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Jan 13, 2017 16:46
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There's a ton of novelty and room for growth and change and surprise in euros! There are plenty of games that more or less fall under the euro label that grant hugely different, novel styles of play. Through the Ages is very different from Food Chain Magnate, which is very different from Arkwright, which has almost nothing in common with Mage Knight, which is barely the same category of game as The Colonists, or Kanban, or Vinhos. You can even have discovery and exploration with a lot of player interaction in the context of a game that makes a drat lick of mechanical sense. Part of the thrill of Archipelago and Argent: Consortium is both the sense of hidden discoverable information and high amount of "touch" you and other players have on each other. Both of those games, though ostensibly worker-placement euros, put players' hands all over each other. Granted, there's a huge amount of euros out there that put the bare minimum of interaction out there and expect you to have a good time learning their persnickety optimization rules - these are very boring. The key is to avoid, with some exceptions, any game longer than an hour that expects the sum of its player interaction to consist of blocking actions available to other players.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:07
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Except Food Chain Magnate is not a Euro. 
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Jan 13, 2017 18:11
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Bottom Liner posted:I just placed a sweet rear end order Was there an issue with the tash-kalar expansions being low quality or was that ages ago/another game
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Jan 13, 2017 18:17
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Fellis posted:Was there an issue with the tash-kalar expansions being low quality or was that ages ago/another game That was the original ZMAN printing of the base game, no need to worry about that.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:18
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Fellis posted:Was there an issue with the tash-kalar expansions being low quality or was that ages ago/another game Old edition it's been fixed
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Jan 13, 2017 18:19
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Comedy of errors in the Indonesia and Zimbabwe preorder shipments: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24752532#24752532 quote:This was actually the first bunch of games we shipped after Essen. The original delivery was planned beginning of december.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:30
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Fellis posted:Was there an issue with the tash-kalar expansions being low quality or was that ages ago/another game Rumda posted:Old edition it's been fixed
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Jan 13, 2017 18:43
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Every day I check boardgameprices.com to see if A Feast for Odin is back in stock anywhere and every day I cry a little bit.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:43
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Radioactive Toy posted:Every day I check boardgameprices.com to see if A Feast for Odin is back in stock anywhere and every day I cry a little bit. https://www.amazon.com/Feast-Odin-Board-Game-Player/dp/B01KGST1TQ/
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Jan 13, 2017 18:54
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Rutibex posted:I would buy this if they shipped to Canada. The wait is killing me. Rutibex why didn't you buy it from 401/BGB when it was in stock for more than a day? Also, this may be a super secret but I think J&J's in Waterloo has a copy or two floating around if you wanted to call them and sort something out. At least they did last time I popped in a couple of weeks ago.
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Jan 13, 2017 18:59
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FulsomFrank posted:Rutibex why didn't you buy it from 401/BGB when it was in stock for more than a day? Because I asked someone to get it for me for Christmas  I check 401 games every day. Nothing!
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Jan 13, 2017 19:19
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It's mostly just a bunch of cardboard tiles, shouldn't be too hard for you to proxy.
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Jan 13, 2017 19:36
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What's, in popular opinion, the best worker placement game to gauge how well my wife receives the genre? I've noted that Lords of Waterdeep, Keyflower, Viticulture and Stone Age rank very highly in this capacity. I wanted to pick up Stone Age; it seemed like a great option but it's priced like a luxury yacht. My next consideration was Viticulture, but I noted that people's significant others were frustrated by limited board space and frequent resource denial. Third in consideration is Lords of Waterdeep, however I noted that a common complaint is that the game play ultimately winds down to little choice and it being a game of grabbing the most cubes. Keyflower, admittedly, I know very little about. Ideally, I'd like something easy to digest and has the 'hook' effect to draw her into the genre.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:19
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Lords of Waterdeep and Stone Age are both deliberately shallow trap options that won't grow with you and will become boring (plus lords of waterdeep is swingy and bad). Keyflower is good but it can be very mean, if you're worried about denial in Viticulture, be warned that this game has a lot of it. Agricola is a good opener to the genre and can become more complex over time. I haven't played viticulture.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:23
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Lorini posted:Except Food Chain Magnate is not a Euro. sure, but it's definitely in the Euro style rather than the American style.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:24
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Null1fy posted:What's, in popular opinion, the best worker placement game to gauge how well my wife receives the genre? I've noted that Lords of Waterdeep, Keyflower, Viticulture and Stone Age rank very highly in this capacity. I wanted to pick up Stone Age; it seemed like a great option but it's priced like a luxury yacht. My next consideration was Viticulture, but I noted that people's significant others were frustrated by limited board space and frequent resource denial. Third in consideration is Lords of Waterdeep, however I noted that a common complaint is that the game play ultimately winds down to little choice and it being a game of grabbing the most cubes. Keyflower, admittedly, I know very little about. Ideally, I'd like something easy to digest and has the 'hook' effect to draw her into the genre. If Viticulture sounds too frustrating, you might want to stay away from Keyflower, and the genre in general. Viticulture is if anything one of the more generous worker placement games out there, whereas Keyflower, especially at low player counts, is a knife fight.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:28
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EBag posted:It's mostly just a bunch of cardboard tiles, shouldn't be too hard for you to proxy. No one has posted any screen caps of the cards yet 
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Jan 13, 2017 20:31
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If you don't mind getting a strict 2p game, take a look at Agricola All Creatures Big and Small. It's a good introduction to the genre, plays fast, less mean than Keyflower but it has some blocking (like any decent worker placement game should).
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Jan 13, 2017 20:31
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Isn't resource denial the point of worker placement games?
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Jan 13, 2017 20:33
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Null1fy posted:What's, in popular opinion, the best worker placement game to gauge how well my wife receives the genre? I've noted that Lords of Waterdeep, Keyflower, Viticulture and Stone Age rank very highly in this capacity. I wanted to pick up Stone Age; it seemed like a great option but it's priced like a luxury yacht. My next consideration was Viticulture, but I noted that people's significant others were frustrated by limited board space and frequent resource denial. Third in consideration is Lords of Waterdeep, however I noted that a common complaint is that the game play ultimately winds down to little choice and it being a game of grabbing the most cubes. Keyflower, admittedly, I know very little about. Ideally, I'd like something easy to digest and has the 'hook' effect to draw her into the genre. Caylus is the logical leap up from Waterdeep. Feast for Odin (if you can find it). Stone Age is fine if you ask me, it's just a light worker placement game. And my take on Viticulture is that resource denial isn't as much a frustration compared to lovely visitor cards and bad wine orders that will haunt you long after your opponent has won. It's still a great game. Dungeon Petz/Lordz might make you happy too, but there's some hard denying that can go down. FulsomFrank fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 20:33
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Rutibex posted:No one has posted any screen caps of the cards yet The appendix is available publicly online and has all cards.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:39
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Null1fy posted:What's, in popular opinion, the best worker placement game to gauge how well my wife receives the genre? I've noted that Lords of Waterdeep, Keyflower, Viticulture and Stone Age rank very highly in this capacity. I wanted to pick up Stone Age; it seemed like a great option but it's priced like a luxury yacht. My next consideration was Viticulture, but I noted that people's significant others were frustrated by limited board space and frequent resource denial. Third in consideration is Lords of Waterdeep, however I noted that a common complaint is that the game play ultimately winds down to little choice and it being a game of grabbing the most cubes. Keyflower, admittedly, I know very little about. Ideally, I'd like something easy to digest and has the 'hook' effect to draw her into the genre. I assume you're often playing together with no other players. If that's not the case Tzolk'in and Dungeon Lords are solid picks as well, although DL is kinda fiddly. And Fresco since you're looking for something lighter. All of these have dummy player/worker rules. I think they work best in Tzolk'in and accordingly it's the only game I would still recommend for 2 players. About the games you listed: Keyflower is one of my favorite games, but it's not as good with 2 players and not really a pure worker placement game. It has a prominent auction mechanic, and I know several people that like worker placement in general but won't play Keyflower because they find it too mean. I've heard good things about Viticulture but never played it. As far as I can tell, that and Russian Railroads (which I have also never played) would probably be closest to easy to get into, archetypical worker placement games that are actually good. Which Stone Age and Lords of Waterdeep are not. Stone Age is okay but not worth paying bullshit secondary market prices for, and Lords of Waterdeep is trash. Wizard Styles fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 20:46
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taser rates posted:If Viticulture sounds too frustrating, you might want to stay away from Keyflower, and the genre in general. Viticulture is if anything one of the more generous worker placement games out there, whereas Keyflower, especially at low player counts, is a knife fight. If anything, having the big Meeple in Viticulture and the potential for visitor cards to fully replicate certain actions means there's less action denial than would be present in Agricola.
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Jan 13, 2017 20:49
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PerniciousKnid posted:Isn't resource denial the point of worker placement games? Only in 2 player where zero sum makes perfect sense strategically. In 3+ player, taking an action that denies a specific resource to a specific person may make them do worse, but if it's suboptimal for you, a third player may do better than you anyway. Besides, the true resource denial game is Graenaland, one of Vlaada's early games, where you try to swoop in on someone building up resources to gather and gather them yourself. I guess Roads and Boats does that too?
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Jan 13, 2017 20:54
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For beginner 2p WP games that won't get boring after a few games I'd look at Istanbul and Targi. Istanbul has a neat spatial element and while it's not exactly pure WP, it will probably work well as it's not very confrontational. It also scales great up to 5 players and the expansion is really good.
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Jan 13, 2017 21:08
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Dirk the Average posted:The appendix is available publicly online and has all cards. 
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Jan 13, 2017 21:18
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EBag posted:For beginner 2p WP games that won't get boring after a few games I'd look at Istanbul and Targi. Istanbul has a neat spatial element and while it's not exactly pure WP, it will probably work well as it's not very confrontational. It also scales great up to 5 players and the expansion is really good.
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Jan 13, 2017 21:18
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silvergoose posted:Only in 2 player where zero sum makes perfect sense strategically. In 3+ player, taking an action that denies a specific resource to a specific person may make them do worse, but if it's suboptimal for you, a third player may do better than you anyway. You can do that in Roads and Boats, and you can also build walls to keep people from being able to access their" own buildings (you don't actually own anything in Roads and Boats except your transporters and resources on your transporters). Incredibly good and mean game.
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Jan 13, 2017 21:39
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taser rates posted:You can do that in Roads and Boats, and you can also build walls to keep people from being able to access their" own buildings (you don't actually own anything in Roads and Boats except your transporters and resources on your transporters). Incredibly good and mean game. Yeah I know, my wife refuses to play it because "the one game I played, I was building up this nice lake of geese, then my opponent came over and took them, and I said 'my geese!' and then I lost by a huge amount". I've never played, but it does sound really good, I just don't like pick up and deliver much. Regardless, that sort of thing is what I think of when I think resource denial, not traditional worker placement where sure, there's resources, but it only really makes sense to deny someone something in particular if it's 2 player. e: actually it was a wife's friend telling the story but w/e same deal silvergoose fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jan 13, 2017 |
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Jan 13, 2017 21:44
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silvergoose posted:Yeah I know, my wife refuses to play it because "the one game I played, I was building up this nice lake of geese, then my opponent came over and took them, and I said 'my geese!' and then I lost by a huge amount". I've never played, but it does sound really good, I just don't like pick up and deliver much. I drink your geeseshake.
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Jan 13, 2017 21:49
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I appreciate all of the suggestions! With regard to resource denial in Viticulture: I just don't want my wife's first experience in the genre to be where she doesn't even get to play her side of the game because of my actions blocking her from completing her actions. She likes more passive competition, if that makes sense. An example I can think of is Roll for the Galaxy where she has her own little mini game going on, but there's still shared resources/mechanisms.
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Jan 13, 2017 22:03
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theroachman posted:If you don't mind getting a strict 2p game, take a look at Agricola All Creatures Big and Small. It's a good introduction to the genre, plays fast, less mean than Keyflower but it has some blocking (like any decent worker placement game should). I can't find this for a decent price. Is it out of print?
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Jan 13, 2017 22:09
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Rad Valtar posted:I can't find this for a decent price. Is it out of print? Extremely, and you need the expansions to make it variable.
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Jan 13, 2017 22:19
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Null1fy posted:I appreciate all of the suggestions! I'm not sure if you know about it, but there's a "Grande" worker in Viticulture who is specifically there to avoid resource denial. They basically break the rules of worker placement and be placed anywhere, even if someone else is already there. You only get one, so there's still a minimal amount of denial possible, but there has to be some form of competition, y'know?
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Jan 13, 2017 22:27
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