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VikingSkull posted:you know, guys like me wouldn't care about the foreign drivers so much if the majority of them were in the car because of talent instead of a checkbook because this is how nascar works right
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Dec 18, 2014 02:42
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Even the ride buyers are super talented in IndyCars these days though. I mean even the least talented guys in the field like huertas, Andretti, Rahal, and kimball are all IndyCar race winners.
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Dec 18, 2014 02:50
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the first british driver to win the 500, in 1916, was named dario resta. given the existence of dario franchitti and paul di resta, that's loving retarded.
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Dec 18, 2014 02:51
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Alain Post posted:Ryan Hunter-Reay is the greatest driver in world motorsport.
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Dec 18, 2014 04:06
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gret posted:Even the ride buyers are super talented in IndyCars these days though. I mean even the least talented guys in the field like huertas, Andretti, Rahal, and kimball are all IndyCar race winners. Saavedra is really bad, and also the payiest paydriver. And even he put the car on pole!
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Dec 18, 2014 04:07
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VikingSkull posted:you know, guys like me wouldn't care about the foreign drivers so much if the majority of them were in the car because of talent instead of a checkbook Well known pay driver Scott Dixon.
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Dec 18, 2014 04:08
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Human Grand Prix posted:Saavedra is really bad, and also the payiest paydriver. And even he put the car on pole! Look how well that turned out.
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Dec 18, 2014 04:09
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Human Grand Prix posted:Well known pay driver Scott Dixon. -Dixie pretty much had to have some local New Zealand business guys pool money to get him a shot in CART. -Will Power pretty much would have been some failed Formula Renault driver had Mark Webber not swooped in.to campaign for the dude. -Tony Kanaan was sleeping in garages in Italy. -Did you know Hinch was pretty close to racing in ARCA? loving hard to get a seat in racing. Only time it's "easy" is if your dad owns the loving team. Hell the fact that Karam made it to the level he's at today is pretty much bizarre when you think about it.
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Dec 18, 2014 04:20
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FuzzySkinner posted:-Dixie pretty much had to have some local New Zealand business guys pool money to get him a shot in CART. I'm struggling to think of any driver that made it without some backing.
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Dec 18, 2014 04:44
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which makes the MRTI pretty dumb when you think about it "hey guys good on you for winning that lower series.....do you have a sponsor lined up? how about a rich dad? no? well gently caress off then some Venezuelan chick just bought your seat"
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Dec 18, 2014 04:55
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VikingSkull posted:"hey guys good on you for winning that lower series.....do you have a sponsor lined up? how about a rich dad? no? well gently caress off then some Venezuelan chick just bought your seat" Karem, Veach and Chaves all are close to getting seats next year? Veach could be the 4th car at Andretti supposedly. I think we'll see Ryan Phinney in a seat some day. Human Grand Prix posted:I'm struggling to think of any driver that made it without some backing. You have to be a freak of nature talent to accomplish that in American Racing. I've seen that happen only like 4 to 5 times as a fan. Jeff Gordon Tony Stewart Joey Logano Kyle Larson Sage Karem
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Dec 18, 2014 05:01
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lots of guys are close to getting seats until they don't get a seat Karem is good enough to make it on skill, but those guys are like once a decade and of the 5 you listed at the end 4 are oval drivers who hosed off to NASCAR lol
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Dec 18, 2014 05:03
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future buschfinitywide champion Sage Karem
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Dec 18, 2014 05:39
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Going through the list and how various drivers made it to the series. NOTE: These are drivers that as of December 18, 2014? Have a ride in the sport. Takuma Sato- Ex-Formula 1 driver who showed flashes of brilliance, but didn't show much in the consistency department. He started in Japanese F3, and then proceeded to win the British F3 championship in 2001. Jack Hawksworth-Talented Brit. Started in karting, and then did the British Formula Renault Series. He then promptly moved up the MRTI ladder, and landed a seat with BHA (with some help from Castrol and a few other sponsors). Marco Andretti- Last name is Andretti. Ryan Hunter-Reay- Won 6 Karting National Championships, Used scholarship money from winning Barber Dodge to run said series (ran series "unsponsored" one year too), and then promptly made his way up to Formula Atlantics. Promptly ran in CCWS with Stefan Johansen in his rookie year achieving victory in Surfers. Carlos Muñoz- Ran Formula E, and Formula Renault. Then went over to run Indy Lights. Signed by Andretti Autosport allegedly after Kurt Busch signed with Haas Racing. (supposedly his seat). Ed Carpenter- Dad's Family loving owns the Series and Speedway. But you know? I'll play nice. His step dad sure as hell didn't make a career out of racing (despite racing Indy Lights). Ed? Ran Silver Crown and Indy Lights. Josef Newgarden- Won a Karting Title. Ran Skip Barber, Formula Ford, GP3, and then finally Indy Lights. Grandfather owns "Robo pong", and it's likely what helped fund his career. Scott Dixon- Kiwi wunderkind who got his license at age 13 (NZ law is 15). Did karting, super vee, and formula holden. Had an offer to run V8 Super car, but declined in order to run Indy Lights with backing from several local business. Won the Lights title in 2000. Signed with Pacwest (now KV Racing) in 2001 and won in his rookie season at Nazareth. Despite this, the team folded. However, Chip Ganassi picked him up in 2002, and the rest is history.. Tony Kanaan- Father died while he was karting, luckily for him one of his rivals was one Ruebens Barichello. Barichello and his family helped him very much in his career. Raced in Italy (sleeping in a garage) in F3, Came to America to race Indy Lights, taking the title in 1997. Signed to Tasman in 1998. Charlie Kimball- Father was an engineer for Patrick Racing and worked in F1 (Gordon Kimball). Did karting, Barber, Dodge, and Formula Ford in the US/UK. Ran Formula Renault, A1 Grand Prix and then Indy Lights. Came to IndyCar in 2011 with help from sponsorship from a Diabetes medication company. Sébastien Bourdais- Born in Le Mans. Dad raced Touring Cars, Hill Climbs, and of course...Le Mans. Did Karting at first, and then moved onto Formula Renault, Formula 3, and won the Formula 3000 championship. Also ran Le Mans, before being signed by top flight team Newman Haas in 2003, winning in his 4th race ever. Promptly dominated the series until it folded in 2008. Graham Rahal- Dad's last name was Rahal, and he had some help from Mike Lanigan as well. James Hinchcliffe- Karting, Formula BMW, Pro Mazda, Formula Atlantics, and A1 GP. Did color commentary for the worldwide feed of Champ Car races during the 2006 and 2007 seasons. Ran Lights in 2009 and 2010. May have not had a ride if not for the passing of Dan... Will Power- Dad raced in some sort of form of WOO over in Australia. Ran Formula Ford and Formula Holden in Australia. Ran Renault World Series with the help of Mark Webber, and then promptly ran for Derrick Walker's team in 2005. Won his first race in 2007, and signed by RP in 2009. Juan Montoya- Did karting in Columbia, and then Formula Renault in Columbia. Did Skip Barber School in the states and blew every one the gently caress away. Ran Skip Barber in 1994, Ran F3, and caught the eye of Frank Williams. Frank Williams promptly loaned him to Chip Ganassi after the departure of Zanardi to F1. Juan then promptly had probably the greatest rookie season in AOWR HISTORY. Winning the title in his rookie year against some of the best in the sport's history. Helio Castroneves- Karting, and then ran Formula 3000. Ran Indy Lights in 1996 and 1997, and then was promptly signed by Gary Bettenhausen and Hogan teams. Got his big break as a teammate to Gil De Ferren after Greg Moore passed away. Simon Pageanaud- Formula Renault, and then promptly made his way to the states to run in the Atlantics winning the championship. Was Will Power's teammate in 2007 in CCWS. Turned his attention to ALMS after that, until he found his way back to AOWR in 2012 racing for Sam Schmidt Racing. To be fair to Rahal, Andretti and Carpenter? You have to kind of WANT it to make it in racing. There's a lot of legacy drivers who didn't get past Formula Atlantics like sons of Rick Mears and Little Al for example. FuzzySkinner fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Dec 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2014 06:45
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Hinch ran in the 2011 season for NHL, but you're probably right in that he might not have a top-tier ride today if not for Vegas.
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Dec 18, 2014 07:00
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it's pretty hilarious to know people still think that if you replaced all current indycar drivers with americans of equal or less talent that it would somehow become more popular just because, especially when the grandparents who make up the bulk of the IMS crowd these days sure seem to love tony kanaan
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Dec 18, 2014 13:26
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To be fair to Special Ed, he is an American that would do well in NASCAR because he sucks at making right turns. The only thing keeping him in IndyCar is his family
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Dec 18, 2014 14:33
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The conclusion I'm reaching over all after having looked at the talent that has come through IndyCar, NASCAR, F1 and Sportscars is that..overall? The people that wanted to be in those seats...are in those seats. I mean you can argue with me that guys like Harvick, Johnson, Gordon, (to an extent) Stewart, and Newman COULD have been IndyCar drivers...but their career paths don't seem to remotely model those that really "went" for it. They wanted to do Cup. Period. And it wasn't like they couldn't have done IndyCar and have had been successful, they just felt it was a better path to chase. Jeff did indeed get offered by Sir Jackie Stewart to run on his Formula 3000 team, and if you look at the alumni of that team? Holy poo poo....it's a "Who's Who" of people that kicked rear end and made a name for themselves in IndyCar. Johnson came from a similar background as Rick Mears and Robby Gordon. Robby...found a loving way to the show. JJ did ASA in the meantime. Now of course...you could throw Sam Hornish, Kasey Kahne (who did do Atlantics), Casey Mears, Danica Patrick and Allmendinger back at me...but I think those conditions are kind of unique in that they were caught in a very akward time in open wheel. Sam was pushed by his wife. Kahne caught the eye of some owner's wife, Casey flamed out the sport, and Danica/AJ were pushed by their sponsors to run Cup. But it seems that the American talent that has made their way up the ladder and dreamed of driving an IndyCar? Found a way to make it happen really.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:17
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It's USAC's fault for banning rear engined sprint cars.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:18
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Alain Post posted:It's USAC's fault for banning rear engined sprint cars. USAC being stupid? YOU DON'T loving SAY! Yeah Davey Hamilton and Robin Miller were ripping on them for killing pavement series in the US.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:20
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PooSack.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:21
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Alain Post posted:It's USAC's fault for banning rear engined sprint cars.  I had no idea such magnificence ever existed.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:39
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http://www.ebaymotorsblog.com/a-car-that-could-have-changed-american-racing-history/quote:In the early 1960s Formula 1 teams from Europe began to descend upon the Indianapolis Motor Speedway with their mid-engined Cooper, Lotus and Brabham race cars. Within a few short years the mid-engine layout had replaced the traditional front-engined Indy Roadster at the Brickyard as the dominant design — a standard that remains to this day. And people wonder why loving CART was created. Jesus.
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Dec 18, 2014 21:45
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I was under the impression Gordon wanted to drive Indycars originally.
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Dec 18, 2014 22:20
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He did, and so did Stewart. They just realized early on that without major backing progressing down the road racing path was way too expensive and jumped to sprints because of the lower cost. People forget that Smoke was a WKA champ when he was a kid. Banning rear engine sprints probably played some part in the divergence, but a rear engine sprint would still handle nothing like an open wheel road racer. As long as the road and street courses were the majority of the schedule, the best oval racers were gonna pursue an oval career. I don't think that's too controversial of a statement, is it?
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Dec 19, 2014 00:05
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VikingSkull posted:As long as the road and street courses were the majority of the schedule, the best oval racers were gonna pursue an oval career. I don't think that's too controversial of a statement, is it? That's a very legit statement. I've always said the best Oval drivers in the world race NASCAR, the best Road drivers race F1, and the best drivers in the world race IndyCar.
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Dec 19, 2014 15:05
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KingShibby posted:That's a very legit statement. I've always said the best Oval drivers in the world race NASCAR, the best Road drivers race F1, and the best drivers in the world race IndyCar. That doesn't make sense, you take the best oval and road racers from Indy and you're left with table scraps. Maybe more rounded but I'd never say anyone from any series is the best drivers in the world. It's just too drat diverse to compare say a Jeff Gordon to a Will Power, to a Tom Kristensen, to a Rene Rast etc.
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Dec 19, 2014 15:11
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FuzzySkinner posted:Jeff Gordon Who knows where Larson would be if he hadn't got a shot with the D4D.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:56
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running an Outlaw like he was when I saw him at the Grove last year
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Dec 19, 2014 17:16
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VikingSkull posted:running an Outlaw like he was when I saw him at the Grove last year Which would be cool as hell, but I'm glad things happened the way they did.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:18
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNbU4vIYn1E I'm not as convinced Jeff Gordon was interested in running IndyCar or Formula 1. He may have....but he didn't chase the very lucrative opportunities that would have guaranteed him a shot at either form of the sport. If IndyCar or Formula 1 is your number 1 goal? You don't decline the offer that Sir Jackie offered. Stewart is...I don't know. I think if he wanted to have it his way, he would have just ran some dirt track all over the county and run Indy in May. I don't think the guy was ever interested in racing in the series itself. Apparently "Sportscentury" quoted him as saying that as soon as him Joe Gibbs contract was up in 2009? He was going to move full time to IndyCar. But I guess "owning a cup team" was just a tad bit better  .BMB5150 posted:That doesn't make sense, you take the best oval and road racers from Indy and you're left with table scraps. Maybe more rounded but I'd never say anyone from any series is the best drivers in the world. It's just too drat diverse to compare say a Jeff Gordon to a Will Power, to a Tom Kristensen, to a Rene Rast etc. Yep. Also "Best drivers are in F1" is a sketchy argument because politics are much more rampant over there. I'm kind of convinced that Dario would have done quite well over there fwiw.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:59
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FuzzySkinner posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNbU4vIYn1E I heard Stewart had him and couldn't find sponsorship for him to go overseas. Could be Gordon wasn't good with sponsors then or didn't Chase them or whatever. Doubt the lack of desire.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:20
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Bhester posted:Which would be cool as hell, but I'm glad things happened the way they did. the kid was goddamned good, ran 8th in the A-Main and you don't just show up in the PA Posse's turf at an Outlaw show and run like that Jason Leffler flipped out of the track in warmups and didn't make the big show, for illustration FuzzySkinner posted:Also "Best drivers are in F1" is a sketchy argument because politics are much more rampant over there. I'm kind of convinced that Dario would have done quite well over there fwiw. I don't think any rational race fan would say that thin, 22 year old Stewart in a top flight car wouldn't have had a shot at a WDC Seizure Meat fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 22:33
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I wish Michael Andretti wasn't such an idiot in 1993 because he was one of the best American all-rounders in the 80s and 90s. As far as road courses go, it's hard to say. Like, if you put stock in NASCAR road racing results, you'd love Jeff Gordon as a hypothetical candidate for that, but NASCAR road races are silly.
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Dec 19, 2014 22:51
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VikingSkull posted:I don't think any rational race fan would say that thin, 22 year old Stewart in a top flight car wouldn't have had a shot at a WDC Well for which team? If we're talking Williams, McLaren, Ferrari or Renault? The argument would be "Yes". If it's for a back marker? He'd have struggled a bit. He'd have shown "Signs" of being good, but wouldn't really show the results. Of course that's kind of the basis of racing period, isn't it? You can only do so much in a poo poo box. I'm still debating in my mind if he would have ever won Indy had he kept trying it all throughout his career. He kept seeming like he struggled with patience, and I think that's truly the key to being an Indy 500 champion. It's likely why Marco hasn't had his face on the Borg Warner. (That's not a slam on Tony, as I'm saying Marco runs REALLY WELL at Indy and like no other place).
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Dec 19, 2014 22:52
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I said top flight car, man, drat
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Dec 19, 2014 23:13
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Considering that John Surtees was a thing, I kind of wonder if the US motorcycle scene in its glory days could have produced a good driver. Maybe that was over by the 80s (though Johnny Cecotto actually made it to F1, at least).
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Dec 20, 2014 00:00
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Harder to say, back then the big motorcycle races were flat track on Harleys and Triumphs, or scramble races. Not really finesse racing, and we didn't really have much in the way of GP racing on a high level until the 70's or so.
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Dec 20, 2014 00:07
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I think Rahal could have gone to F1, but then again he might have ended up as Sullivan Mk.II.
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Dec 20, 2014 00:45
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Irrespective of that, it's not like the F1 guys were able to walk all over Indycar either.
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Dec 20, 2014 00:47
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