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First tends to lock up the wheels and not work on cars at least and driver's ed teaches to use second so that's what I doSlavvy posted:Bike can't tell the difference between a bump, a crank or a kick so go hard.
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Aug 24, 2021 20:28
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I find the jolt/shock from dumping the clutch a bit too strong for comfort. It's not the kind of shock load i typically put onto my transmission and chain. For the engine it doesn't matter at all, like the others already said. If you have a bike with a small displacement per cylinder, it's probably no big deal, but it feels like a bad thing to do on my SV. Even in 2nd gear it's easy to lock up the rear wheel. Haven't tried it on my FZR yet. I'd say 'just use the starter' unless your bike starts really easily and the stress on chain and transmission aren't too high.
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Aug 24, 2021 20:56
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LimaBiker posted:I find the jolt/shock from dumping the clutch a bit too strong for comfort. It's not the kind of shock load i typically put onto my transmission and chain. For the engine it doesn't matter at all, like the others already said. The 'shock' is similar to every time you roll off the throttle on the motorway. The average downshift is substantially more violent than a bump start in second gear. Bump starting is how just about every race bike is started, provided you can't get a rattle gun on the output sprocket easily. Bump starting with the bicycle pedals was the only way many early 20th century bikes could be started at all. Basically if your drivetrain can't cope with a bump start at jogging speed it will supernova the moment you try actually riding the thing. My only concern would be edge cases when it comes to oiling, the concern there being you've just bumped the bike and gotten it going so you instinctively ride away - bad idea if you've got a Ducati for example, because the engine takes like a good minute to build oil pressure and you're riding around on bare metal in the meantime. Or perhaps you have a heavily sumped old Harley and you get the opposite situation: too much oil where it shouldn't be, you rev up to ride away and blow a seal or damage the oil pump. It's not something I would be concerned about on any Japanese bike.
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Aug 24, 2021 21:17
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LimaBiker posted:If you have a bike with a small displacement per cylinder, it's probably no big deal, but it feels like a bad thing to do on my SV. Even in 2nd gear it's easy to lock up the rear wheel.
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Aug 24, 2021 23:14
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It actually is risky to habitually bump start an airhead BMW because of the way the output flange is bolted onto the transmission shaft, not that that's relevant here
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Aug 25, 2021 03:00
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:It actually is risky to habitually bump start an airhead BMW because of the way the output flange is bolted onto the transmission shaft, not that that's relevant here Of course the Germans found a way to turn a non-issue into an expensive problem.
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Aug 25, 2021 04:44
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Just on the topic of doing stuff whilst going downhill, I am still having issues going down a reealy steep hill (like LA steep) in a 20mph zone. The bike doesn't feel happy. I have googled this, but I need an answer from someone who has paid  , because, frankly, that's the poo poo I pay for. 
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Aug 25, 2021 19:22
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GuestBob posted:Just on the topic of doing stuff whilst going downhill, I am still having issues going down a reealy steep hill (like LA steep) in a 20mph zone. The bike doesn't feel happy. If you want an answer you need to ask a question
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Aug 25, 2021 19:30
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I might be missing something but my bike will happily roll downhill.
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Aug 25, 2021 19:51
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I really like my little honda. I ride it to work because it's nice at slow speeds and in traffic. I went on a three hour trip last evening after work and it was all great except a bit of numb butt but whatever. I've gotten unsolicited advice from random parking lot bike dude that I'll totally outgrow it super fast and he's a newb too but already wants a literbike but I don't care, he doesn't get it. I took it on a benchmark twisty section that I rode lots on the school's 600cc bikes and corners that felt scary at 60km/h were totally fine at 75. I know it's all in my head but that doesn't make it any less real. I passed some other riders who were going way slow like they were on tiptoe and I realised that I used to be those people just a week ago. I also got passed by a dadbike like I was standing still so that goes to show how much I'm still leaving on the table. That's fine, I'll get there when I get there. Every roundabout is an opportunity to take an extra lap or two. Every time there's nobody behind me I can do a brake drill. Every red light means I get to revmatch on every downshift. Every green light and onramp means I get to redline it. It's just plain old fun all the time pretty much. The bike also lets me get away with all sorts of dumb things without any real consequences. Part of me thinks this will make me sloppy but I feel comfortable taking this thing anywhere and it hasn't scared me once and more riding will surely build more skill. Hopefully the mistakes will become less severe and less frequent with routine. It's fantastic not to be on edge all the time and just throw the bike around like I know what I'm doing, which I don't. Thanks again for saving me from the stupidity of myself and others, bike forum.
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Aug 25, 2021 20:20
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GuestBob posted:Just on the topic of doing stuff whilst going downhill, I am still having issues going down a reealy steep hill (like LA steep) in a 20mph zone. The bike doesn't feel happy. You may not enjoy it but the bike will be fine, just make sure you're not putting all your weight on the handlebars going downhill. I've gone over Baxter St in the pouring rain and while it wasn't fun, the bike was fine. The pics don't really do it justice but it's comically steep. 
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Aug 25, 2021 21:15
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GuestBob posted:Just on the topic of doing stuff whilst going downhill, I am still having issues going down a reealy steep hill (like LA steep) in a 20mph zone. The bike doesn't feel happy. Do it in 1st, don't try and do 20mph, keep it slower, keep the throttle almost closed and feather the brakes to control the descent.
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Aug 25, 2021 21:36
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GuestBob posted:Just on the topic of doing stuff whilst going downhill, I am still having issues going down a reealy steep hill (like LA steep) in a 20mph zone. The bike doesn't feel happy. Grip the tank with your knees, keep weight on your pegs, and keep the weight off your arms, let the engine go blap-blap-blappity-pop in a pretty low gear, 2nd if it’s not crazy steep. If your engine braking is effective enough, using the front brake basically normally won’t throw you over the bars as you may be fearing. Scoot your butt back to the rear of the seat but not onto the pillion seat.
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Aug 26, 2021 02:31
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I think when you’re first starting out, every incline you go down feels like it’s 45 degrees. Probably a combination of an actual road angle and still getting used to riding leaned forward (even if the actual bike isn’t aggressively stanced) so it feels like you’re going face first, I got used to that pretty quickly of all things. I don’t know if it’s lovely advice or not but stay in a gear that will do the engine braking for you and the bike basically just kind of descends on its own. My Ninja 250 had an aftermarket can that farted and popped the entire way down every time I did this. It was awful. Awfully funny.
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Aug 26, 2021 03:17
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Truly scandalous rear end that had to be censored
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Aug 26, 2021 03:43
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HenryJLittlefinger posted:Grip the tank with your knees, keep weight on your pegs, and keep the weight off your arms, let the engine go blap-blap-blappity-pop in a pretty low gear, 2nd if it’s not crazy steep. If your engine braking is effective enough, using the front brake basically normally won’t throw you over the bars as you may be fearing. Scoot your butt back to the rear of the seat but not onto the pillion seat. Cool, weight distribution is something I was never doing. Things is though, when I let the bike engine break hard down the hill, I get to the bottom, open the throttle a bit and the bike just farts loudly at super low revs with no power coming out. Engine breaking seems not to sit well with my bike in general, but it only causes the power farts at low gear and speed. Immediately pulling over, turning the engine off and starting it up again fixes the problem. My bike engine is a yamaha clone 125, could be mechanical maybe. Its first service is coming up, so maybe I'll see what the dude says.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:13
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GuestBob posted:Cool, weight distribution is something I was never doing. Didn't I tell you to check for vacuum leaks? Got nothing to do with weight distribution or anything, you could be a sack of potatoes and the bike will get down just fine. Honestly sounds like really basic technique and practice is the problem because the issue is psychological. It really doesn't matter if the engine is completely faulty, provided the wheels turn and the steering works the bike isn't the issue.
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Aug 26, 2021 18:55
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Slavvy posted:Didn't I tell you to check for vacuum leaks? Yes, but then it was okay for a ride so I didn't do it Isn't that ok?It is basic technique. I do it on every commute out of choice just to try and practice it (I have a country lanes route, an A road route, a loads-of-roundabouts route - so I practice lots of stuff okay).
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Aug 26, 2021 19:19
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GuestBob posted:Engine breaking seems not to sit well with my bike in general Indeed, engine breaking is a bad thing for any bike.
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Aug 26, 2021 20:27
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Sagebrush posted:Indeed, engine breaking is a bad thing for any bike. What? Why?
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Aug 26, 2021 21:50
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Steakandchips posted:What? Why? read the reply carefully 
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Aug 26, 2021 21:53
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Yeah he rote it very carefully; think it threw.
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Aug 26, 2021 22:33
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GuestBob posted:Cool, weight distribution is something I was never doing. I ride around my 125cc chinabike a lot. It's carbed tho not EFI. Yamaha clone? Starting to sound Chinese to me. Opens up a whole new world of potential problems haha. My bike does engine brake. Fewer gears so not that well. I find myself mixing in a ton of actual braking at the same time as downshifting which probably is a better practice anyway.
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Aug 26, 2021 22:41
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Martytoof posted:read the reply carefully Ah.
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Aug 26, 2021 23:11
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Managed to get an appointment to do my full moto license test next Friday! It's so backed up I kept checking for cancelations otherwise I was booked for January 2nd lol.
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Aug 27, 2021 22:34
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Sagebrush posted:Indeed, engine breaking is a bad thing for any bike.
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Aug 28, 2021 08:26
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I discovered something weird. I previously said I like to cruise at low RPM. But I also said I hate cruising at high speed. So today I did a long-ish road trip with friends and I was feeling kind of uneasy at higher speeds in 6th gear. Then I kicked it down to 5th and all of a sudden my RPMs went up but the “feel” improved DRASTICALLY. I just felt more comfortable. It’s true that I dislike hearing the engine under me at higher RPMs but I tuned that out in no time. All the way home I ended up kicking it down or keeping the bike where I think I remember peak power was and it seriously improved everything. I was doing like 80kph in 4th gear, 100+ in 5th with a gear to spare but with no real discomfort. I’m not sure what my point is, other than I learned that today. I also had a weird thing where I was downshifting to a distant red light and during one of my shifts I felt the rear skip. Presumably I either dropped the clutch too quickly or I was in the wrong RPMs and my rear broke free? It was ultimately fine but I was kind of shaken because it was such a routine thing I managed to mess up. Maybe it was slipper clutch that saved my bacon or something. Ah well.
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Aug 29, 2021 22:35
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 Rode my boater mike today about 170 km loop. Did some sweet side roads with no traffic cause they run parallel to the highway. Did a hard launch on the highway cause I was first at the stop light with clear sailing in front of me but otherwise mostly kept it above board and just enjoyed the roads. Skipped a bunch of backed up weekend traffic by riding at 30 kph on the shoulder though. You LA guys would have laughed but it's not allowed where I live.
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Aug 29, 2021 23:10
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That effect is because of crankshaft inertia, spinning the engine faster makes the bike more stable through gyroscopic effects. Also, the closer you are too the engine's optimal rpm zone, the more throttle fidelity and response you have. You can imagine how these factors and a bunch of others are different on every design so the number of possible permutations are enormous, this is what we call 'character' and why some bikes like to be ridden a certain way and others a different way. A good bike design extends this character into the chassis by integrating geometry and suspension design with the engine's delivery so the whole bike is absolutely optimal at whatever job they had in mind. Some brands are better at this than others, and figuring this stuff out takes literal decades, which is why every brand has an ingrained character irrespective of model segment - it's much better to adapt what you know to a new paradigm than attempt to reinvent everything, guaranteeing disaster. It's also how a fifteen year old gixxer can pants a v4 panigale. Skipping the rear is cool and good and you should do it more. Slipper clutches mitigate it but only to some extent because there are so many factors a static mechanical device alone can't possibly compensate for. Like the thread title says, keep doing it and the part of your brain that cares will eventually shut the gently caress up. You also have a bike with what I'd call an unpleasant, uneven engine character so, there are multiple sweet spots and poo poo spots in the range where vibration becomes more or less unpleasant and those spots don't really correlate to power or torque like they do on a v-twin or i4. So you can have the engine working really well while the whole bike is creaking and shuddering, or you can be in the really high rpm zone where it's running smooth but making no power; iirc the er6 has like 3000rpm 'spare' at the top that does nothing except make the tacho look more flattering.
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Aug 29, 2021 23:11
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The N650 engine is fine, if a bit of a blunt object. Sweet spot is 5k and up and feels great there but yeah it starts dropping HP at 9k and just makes noise. More room for rev matching on down shifts I guess.
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Aug 29, 2021 23:31
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My friend bought a CBR1000RR. It is kind of mind boggling because it'll go faster than any legal speed limit in first gear it seems. On my Versys X 300 bike, I sorta shift early when riding streets, to save gas mileage. On the highway the bike runs a bit harder and I ride it to the limit of the power bands till I'm in 6th, and even then I usually drop to 5th if I want to pass. My 125cc china bike I pretty much run to the top end of the power band in every gear to keep up. Do you just shift giant sport bikes to save gas only? 😂 I am like half serious with that question. SSH IT ZOMBIE fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Aug 29, 2021 |
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Aug 29, 2021 23:51
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SSH IT ZOMBIE posted:Do you just shift giant sport bikes to save gas only? 😂 My regular riding partner has a CBR1000RR SP and she never gets out of 3rd, whereas I'm pretty much topping out on my Guzzi V7 in 6th.
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Aug 30, 2021 00:57
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I’m following everything you said except slipping the rear. Not being snarky or anything, I’m not sure exactly why I would want to do more of it or what I’m supposed to learn from it other than “I shifted wrong” but even then I think my goal would be to do less of it. I’ve misread your sarcasm before though so if I am doing it again I apologize  Slavvy posted:You also have a bike with what I'd call an unpleasant, uneven engine character So the more I learn about what this actually means as a newbie the more I can appreciate this comment. I’m still not sure I fully understand or agree, but after figuring out what I did today I can certainly say that it’s not just words I don’t understand. I think for me to agree I’d need to ride something else, and I’m hoping my DRZ can provide some clarity, or maybe it won’t, but at least it’ll give me a basis for comparison. I still think it’s a perfectly serviceable bike that “just works” which is something I’m pretty happy with right now, and maybe the difference is that I need to learn more about what makes this bike’s engine characteristics lacking and how to work around them. some kinda jackal fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Aug 30, 2021 |
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Aug 30, 2021 01:50
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numberoneposter posted:Skipped a bunch of backed up weekend traffic by riding at 30 kph on the shoulder though. Paging momjeans.
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Aug 30, 2021 02:04
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Slavvy posted:That effect is because of crankshaft inertia, spinning the engine faster makes the bike more stable through gyroscopic effects. Also, the closer you are too the engine's optimal rpm zone, the more throttle fidelity and response you have. You can imagine how these factors and a bunch of others are different on every design so the number of possible permutations are enormous, this is what we call 'character' and why some bikes like to be ridden a certain way and others a different way. A good bike design extends this character into the chassis by integrating geometry and suspension design with the engine's delivery so the whole bike is absolutely optimal at whatever job they had in mind. Some brands are better at this than others, and figuring this stuff out takes literal decades, which is why every brand has an ingrained character irrespective of model segment - it's much better to adapt what you know to a new paradigm than attempt to reinvent everything, guaranteeing disaster. It's also how a fifteen year old gixxer can pants a v4 panigale. My riding got a lot smoother once I realized that my MT03 is better if I keep the revs between 6k to 11k. Everything just feels more taught and engaged.
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Aug 30, 2021 02:10
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Huh, I've been shifting at around 6k on my MT-03. I'm blaming constant start-go, congested city traffic but it always feels like I'm starting to lose acceleration once I hit that point.
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Aug 30, 2021 02:28
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Spiggy posted:Huh, I've been shifting at around 6k on my MT-03. I'm blaming constant start-go, congested city traffic but it always feels like I'm starting to lose acceleration once I hit that point. nope  You're probably subconsciously rolling off the throttle because it's starting to get loud. In that bike, power is going to keep climbing up to 10,000. Hold your shifts longer and let it get up to redline with the throttle open. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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Aug 30, 2021 02:35
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I still shift to get out of 1st and 2nd gear pretty much as soon as humanly possible because they’re so incredibly grabby on the N650 and I can pretty much lug 3rd gear to ridiculous levels on this bike. I’m not ridiculous about it — if 3rd is chugging like a dying mule then I’ll obviously kick it down into second, but I am not shy about exiting 2nd at a speed that is probably unwarranted. Maybe I’ll grow out of this too, but nothing more tedious than taking off from light just turned green, shifting into second and seeing the upcoming light turn red so kind of coasting in second gear that is incredibly touchy to slight throttle variations until it’s time to come to a stop again. Most of the time I’ll just kick it into third even if I have to downshift two second later anwyay.
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Aug 30, 2021 02:43
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Another reason that small bikes are great, imo. My Hawk is fantastic on twisty mountain roads and other places where you can get in the 30-60 mph range. Just plunk it in third and work the whole rev range and it's perfect. It's not fun in stop-and-go traffic because the clutch is heavy(ish) and it clearly doesn't like being lugged around in second gear and the throttle is twitchy at those speeds. In contrast my 350 is geared so low that you can chug around in first gear at a walking pace no problem, clutch fully released, engine happily idling away with no lugging or protests. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Aug 30, 2021 |
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Aug 30, 2021 02:59
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Martytoof posted:I’m following everything you said except slipping the rear. Not being snarky or anything, I’m not sure exactly why I would want to do more of it or what I’m supposed to learn from it other than “I shifted wrong” but even then I think my goal would be to do less of it. I’ve misread your sarcasm before though so if I am doing it again I apologize It is an engine that just works yeah. They basically had a target capacity, horsepower and physical attributes as a target and built something for those, with the actual riding experience not really being a concern. Your drz is built for a different job so it isn't fair to judge the engine the same way because it's designed to just make as much torque as possible for as long as possible; from your perspective it will feel really flat, like more revs just makes more noise without a large increase in urgency. This is super helpful for learning to use the tyres and chassis because being in the right gear becomes less critical, the engine is one less thing to worry about and you can focus on doing your job. The problem is dyno charts and power numbers don't tell the whole story, because you only use full throttle on the straights. Compared to, say, a more sporty (or at least, more carefully designed) twin like a monster for example, the er6 has a really uneven character, so you get somewhat unpredictable response at part throttle depending on the load and revs. It also suffers from the competing priorities of more rideability (smooth pull at low revs) and meeting a horsepower figure (big lungs at high revs). Sporty bikes have power as a function of marketing but what really makes a bike engine fun is predictability, you want to know exactly how much torque you get for any given combination of throttle/rpm/load. Without this predictability it's impossible to get the most out of the bike and chassis. Sporty bikes discard low range rideability in favour of a broad, smooth power band at higher revs, this is kind of what makes them poo poo for learning because you have to be going pretty fast even in second gear to access the working range of the engine, and because the bike is built around the engine the chassis parts don't work properly at low loads either so you can't just go slow until you figure it out. You can work around this stuff, mainly by just riding the bike for thousands of hours and becoming intimately familiar with it's quirks, but when your skill gets to the point of really using the engine in the corners, jumping on something like an mt07 or SV is an immediate stark difference, everything just feels easier and more connected. Power commanders, despite the name, are mostly worth it for the smoothening effect they have on fueling. You only gain like 5hp on a 200hp bike but the rideability improvement is gigantic and it's why they're such a worthwhile thing; without a PC or other work, no EFI bike from the last twenty years can match good carbs for smoothness and predictability. Tuning, the physical design of the throttle and intake, the exhaust and gearing all affect this as well. Everything is connected to everything else. As for skidding the rear, google backing it in. I say you should do it more not because it'll make you go faster or better on that bike, but because losing traction is a routine part of knowing what the gently caress and never doing it just means you never learn past a certain point. The er6 is a garbage bike to learn this stuff on, but you already know this which is why you bought a drz, the perfect bike to learn this stuff on.
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Aug 30, 2021 03:00
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