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Wildtortilla posted:You make an excellent point about diving on dudes your teammates are fighting. So often I try to coordinate my teams to push with me and they never do. Next time I play I'm going to focus less on getting folks to work with me and focus more on helping each person accomplish their agenda. Maybe that'll help me escape the low 2000s! this is good "what can i do to win" attitude right here!
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Jul 11, 2017 17:45
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Kai Tave posted:The ult charge thing is an argument because Roadhog's ult is frankly not a good tradeoff for the ults that other people gain by shooting at him, and since Hog has no form of mitigation or evasion he's inevitably going to get shot a bunch. That his own supports can benefit from it is a questionable benefit at most since it's not like they don't have four other teammates they can do the same thing with, Hog isn't unique in that regard, and there's no real benefit to pocketing a Roadhog either so it's not much of a benefit. In general, the better people become the better DPS ults wind up compared to support ults in my experience as the better you get the less and less you're able to rely on teams being considerate enough to leave Mercy alone for the full rez after blowing all their ults preemptively. Hog has negative ult economic value, period. Again, Hog doesn't need evasion because hes able to pull people to him. Even before the change, a bad hog is the one standing out in the open not using cover or shields. His mitagation is his high health pool and his ability to heal up extraordinarily fast which allows him to stay in the fight even longer. Also, you say that Hog isn't unique because healers can benefit from the other team mates similarly, but by that logic, the reverse is true as well. Pocketing Hog has no benefit? Boosting him brings his damage almost back up to his damage levels before the nerf as well. Also furthermore, displacing someone is incredible in and of itself, since if you grab someone in the backline, like say a healer, or someone who has no real method of escapes you can ensure their deaths. Since when does needing to do 10 HP of damage = Half dead? Hog just needs someone to have a scratch on them and he can kill them. Hog can still do up to 190 damage with his hook combo. Most characters only have 200 HP. This isn't remotely a case of needing a 'half dead hero' to kill them.
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Jul 11, 2017 17:59
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"fuckin' breakpoints, how do they work"
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Jul 11, 2017 18:01
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pocketing hog as mercy isn't that great, not because the damage boost isn't appreciated (because it definitely is post nerf), but because roadhog offers nothing in the way of mobility to mercy. mercy pockets pharah because pharah allows mercy to get in the air. from there she can get a good view of who needs her help and can use the pharah as both a way to get to other heal targets and escape threats you should def try to damage boost the hog if you see them hook someone in but sticking with them forever isn't a great use of your time, and it's dangerous to boot since hog might as well have a giant neon sign saying "kill me" floating over his head these days. if you wanna help roadhog do his thing, zen would be a better choice. discord is effectively the same as damage boost in this scenario but zen can keep his distance and heal the roadhog at the same time
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Jul 11, 2017 18:04
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Is Doomfist supposed to come out today? When does this stuff normally drop? Overwatch started patching last night, I got my hopes up that he had dropped since I thought I remember events starting on monday rather then the usual Blizzard patch day tuesday.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:04
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Oxyclean posted:Is Doomfist supposed to come out today? When does this stuff normally drop? 3 weeks from last Tuesday I'd wager since he just hit PTR.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:07
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new characters usually stay in ptr for at least a couple weeks before getting added. it's possible that they'll add doomfist today but I really doubt it. he doesn't even have cosmetics on ptr last I checked
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Jul 11, 2017 18:07
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I remember Kaplan talking about how they liked powerful moves having an "all-in" effect (Pharah's ult etc). So they should just double down on that with Hog. Revert the change to his gun but reverse his hook. Hog ziplines to the enemy he catches. Now it's terrifying and hilarious. Or just give him Widow's hook and watch him zip around the map. Ultimate dive tank. Dumb joke aside I think it's funny that Blizzard is completely clueless on what to do with him. The "tuning down" ended up just nuking his whole gimmick. The majority of players don't like to play tanks/supports and Hog was an actual fun tank to play. Getting one-shot sucks poo poo but at least the threat of his hook is way more interesting than poo poo like defense matrix and barriers. Sour Diesel fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Jul 11, 2017 |
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Jul 11, 2017 18:19
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Sour Diesel posted:I remember Kaplan talking about how they liked powerful moves having an "all-in" effect (Pharah's ult etc). So they should just double down on that with Hog. Revert the change to his gun but reverse his hook. Hog ziplines to the enemy he catches. Now it's terrifying and hilarious. Or just give him Widow's hook and watch him zip around the map. Ultimate dive tank. There was a Heroes of Newerth hero called Gauntlet that was basically reverse-Roadhog / reverse Pudge who worked more or less like this. Of course, that's also pretty close to Doomfist's design space...  I'm hoping that Doomfist will occupy a similar niche to old Hog in terms of being an fair or maybe even favorable matchup for Tracer, but one in which you cannot gently caress up even once or you'll get pasted.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:25
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Manatee Cannon posted:pocketing hog as mercy isn't that great, not because the damage boost isn't appreciated (because it definitely is post nerf), but because roadhog offers nothing in the way of mobility to mercy. mercy pockets pharah because pharah allows mercy to get in the air. from there she can get a good view of who needs her help and can use the pharah as both a way to get to other heal targets and escape threats True, Zen would also be a good choice in this. Though the Mercy Mobility thing applies to most of the cast too. While a Pharah is generally preferable to pocket, Mercy has her own mobility in the form of zipping from teammate to teammate and most of the cast doesn't have the mobility Pharah allows.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:29
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I mean yea, this is why pro teams never ever use mercy unless they're also running pharah roadhog's a lot worse than most other heroes as far as the whole "I don't want to die" part of playing the game goes tho
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Jul 11, 2017 18:32
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:There was a Heroes of Newerth hero called Gauntlet that was basically reverse-Roadhog / reverse Pudge who worked more or less like this. Of course, that's also pretty close to Doomfist's design space... Agreed (although replace Tracer with Genji for me). Even though going off to 1v1 people is already a mistake, I intentionally sought out Roadhogs in QP to practice movement by trying to duel him. It really helped my ADAD and all that stuff since getting instagibbed was at stake. I never really played Hog that much but did appreciate a decent one on my team. Although with the only tank I play being Winston I'm really loving the extra breathing room I have to do Winston stuff. All I really have to do is just make sure I land far enough from Reaper so by the time he trots on over to me I've already killed something or my team follows up and takes care of Reaper for me. If he's already a bit hurt I'll just straight up dive onto Reaper since landing the combo + shield dancing can usually finish him off. With Hog I would only go anywhere near him if he had health in the single digits and his heal was on cooldown.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:38
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DeliciousCookie posted:Again, Hog doesn't need evasion because hes able to pull people to him. Even before the change, a bad hog is the one standing out in the open not using cover or shields. His mitagation is his high health pool and his ability to heal up extraordinarily fast which allows him to stay in the fight even longer. Also, you say that Hog isn't unique because healers can benefit from the other team mates similarly, but by that logic, the reverse is true as well. Mitigation is the ability to avoid damage, not the ability to soak damage. The key to all of the other types of mitigation that I mentioned is that your healer doesn't have to heal the damage and your opponent doesn't build ult charge off of it! Roadhog is a naked 600 HP sponge with one of the easiest to hit hitboxes in the game. He takes more damage than any other hero, period. If Roadhog is solokilled by a Tracer who jukes his hook, she gets 80% of her ult charge if he healed, making a single kill basically a 2 for 1, and tracer can routinely solo a Hog if he doesn't have hook. If Sombra empties 2 magazines into a Roadhog, even if she doesn't confirm a kill she has almost an entire EMP, which is a game winning ultimate. Other tanks have a healthy dose of armor that makes their effective HP just as high as Hog's theoretical 900 HP with a heal. Orisa can have upwards of 900 EHP against a Tracer, and she only yields 400 ult charge. Hog probably doesn't need evasion in his kit. At his core he's a high risk high reward hero. Before the patch he was a low risk high reward hero at dumpster tier, because people couldn't effectively punish the flanking hog. Now he's a high risk low reward hero at all tiers. He was never a traditional tank, but now he's been nerfed so his burst/DPS is more in line with other tank heroes, so now the lack of mitigation stands out like a sore thumb. Also, the hook melee combo is good, but unreliable against characters with good escape moves, like basically the entire meta short of Zenyatta or Soldier, who should be deep enough that they won't get hooked.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:38
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Do heroes build ult off of Doomfists shields? If not, why not switch Hogs self-heal to a slightly more massive (400?) decaying shield? Then basically halve the cooldown on hooks, push his damage to 175, increase ammo count to 6 and adjust ult generation to compensate. Or why not give him a passive that procs antiheal on melee or hook for 3s? You want hog to pull people out of position and have a team work cooperatively to kill hooked targets, that's the way to do it, because 1v1 that would matter a bit less.
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Jul 11, 2017 18:59
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The Blue Caboose posted:Mitigation is the ability to avoid damage, not the ability to soak damage. The key to all of the other types of mitigation that I mentioned is that your healer doesn't have to heal the damage and your opponent doesn't build ult charge off of it! Roadhog is a naked 600 HP sponge with one of the easiest to hit hitboxes in the game. He takes more damage than any other hero, period. You might have a point with Tracer, however her ult is also not that great unless comboed into something like Zarya, but both depend highly on dodging the hook. Only which Tracer can do effectively, and Sombra only if she burns her only escape and honestly high mobility heroes are suppose to counter Hog anyways.. As for High Risk, High reward.. No. Hog was always a low risk hero by virtue of design. High Risk High reward is something like Rein's charge, which can put him out of position where he can get killed, but the reward is to one shot someone. Hog's kit has always been low risk, high reward, since his hook never displaced him, only displaced the enemy. Furthermore, the Hook combo is still fine, the only difference is you need to fire a shot off before hand. His kit is still Low Risk High Reward, but the problem is more that the Meta is shifted towards Dive which hes fairly weak against.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:26
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jesus how many times can someone be wrong in one paragraph
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Jul 11, 2017 19:30
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Did actually play against the dumbest/best strat the other day on Ilios: Well where the enemy Mercy spent the majority of the game inside the well and just bouncing up and down to their tanks around the well and Pharah above it. Turns out it can be pretty hard to get in there and do anything about it.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:33
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I think Roadhog's ult could definitely use an early cancel by firing off a primary/secondary round. That way you can push people into the right spot and nail them with a skill shot. If they're going to keep him low powered however, they should cut his health in half and give him 50% damage resistance (Call it 'Thick Fat' or something.) So he effectively has the same health, but he becomes easier to heal and less easy to ult farm off of. They could adjust the values as needed to balance him to be an actual tank.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:44
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Tracer's ult is very good. It's not on the level of the top-tier tank ults like Earthshatter or Graviton but it can pick most of the heroes of the game and it builds very quickly, on top of having combo potential. There are a lot of ways to dodge the hook even without a blink. Use cover, use teammates, and since the hook is projectile even just plain old juking can work if you're towards the outside of its range. In addition Genji, Tracer, Zarya, Sombra (might need a translocator already set), Reaper, Mei, and Orisa all have abilities that activate instantly that negate the hook. Reinhardt, Symmetra, and Winston can raise/create shields, which isn't quite instant, but block hooks for a while once they're set. Hog is absolutely high risk, high reward. Giving the enemy ult is in fact incredibly dangerous, and most of his value is tied up in an 8-second all-or-nothing cooldown. The only thing that made this less true was when they buffed his M2 (which was a mistake, like most Hog changes post-release; this is actually the most OP thing he ever had). But even that's a trade-off -- he could use it much more often than hook, but it also means you want to be roughly 10m away, which puts you inside the falloff of even the most close-range heroes. The hook combo is not fine. Hog being suppressed because dive comp is strong is complete nonsense; Hog was excellent against most dive comp heroes. He threatened Tracer, countered Genji, and was strong against D. Va and Winston. He was also a pretty essential piece of 3+ tank comps on account of being a 600 HP damage dealer, and his nerf was a contributing factor to that strategy basically disappearing.
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Jul 11, 2017 19:49
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Thor-Stryker posted:If they're going to keep him low powered however, they should cut his health in half and give him 50% damage resistance (Call it 'Thick Fat' or something.) So he effectively has the same health, but he becomes easier to heal and less easy to ult farm off of. percentage damage reduction is a horrible mechanic, let alone at 50% magnitude like it's bad that it's in the game at all, whatsoever, but at least bastion sucks too much for it to matter most of the time
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Jul 11, 2017 20:07
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Make Hog immune to all hitscan damage but reduce his DPS by another 50%
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Jul 11, 2017 20:09
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Tracer's ult is very good. It's not on the level of the top-tier tank ults like Earthshatter or Graviton but it can pick most of the heroes of the game and it builds very quickly, on top of having combo potential. Also he was high risk simply for existing on his team. Yea in low SR he could get away with roaming the map deleting poo poo, but when teamfights start happening he has to consistently get picks to justify taking up a tank slot. I liked how he "tanked" by just having a deathzone around him. He was pretty much the only kind of back-line protection in the game. All I can think of that he could possibly be useful for now is to confirm kills. But at that point why not just switch to Winston who does that waaaay better.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:09
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Jeza posted:Make Hog immune to all hitscan damage but reduce his DPS by another 50% guys i've figured it out, we'll make a new hero: Statuefus he's completely immobile, doesn't do anything, and has 99% damage reduction his teammates can shove him bodily onto the point to contest Sour Diesel posted:I liked how he "tanked" by just having a deathzone around him. He was pretty much the only kind of back-line protection in the game. All I can think of that he could possibly be useful for now is to confirm kills. But at that point why not just switch to Winston who does that waaaay better. McCree sort of does this too, but dive shits on McCree pretty hard, and it's pretty rare these days to see flankers in a non-dive context 
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Jul 11, 2017 20:10
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roadhog would have effectively 900 health if he had 50% dr. his self heal would also effectively give him 450 back instead of 300. dr is not the way to go idk what they're gonna do to make roadhog competitive again but I'm worried that he'll be even farther away from what I liked about roadhog by the time they're done
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Jul 11, 2017 20:14
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Sour Diesel posted:I liked how he "tanked" by just having a deathzone around him. He was pretty much the only kind of back-line protection in the game. All I can think of that he could possibly be useful for now is to confirm kills. But at that point why not just switch to Winston who does that waaaay better. Sombra also kinda offers some backline protection, in that hack is generally quite effective against highly mobile flanking heroes and Sombra+support is usually a solid win against any small pokes by opportunistic flankers in a more traditional barrier fight meta. But Hog was unique in that he could delete not only Genji's and Tracers, but also Winstons and D.Vas. Hog's nerf didn't cause dive, but it certainly put the nail in the coffin.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:21
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roadhog can't oneshot people because he's fat and gross, make him more of a hunky japanese samurai and it'll be ok
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Jul 11, 2017 20:21
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Kassoon posted:roadhog can't oneshot people because he's fat and gross, make him more of a hunky japanese samurai and it'll be ok Reduce his HP to 1/3rd and give his gun a single shot charging projectile too. Maybe let him climb walls so he can have some mobility?
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Jul 11, 2017 20:22
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roadhog with 200 health would be so loving dead you have no idea his hitbox is huge
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Jul 11, 2017 20:26
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Manatee Cannon posted:roadhog with 200 health would be so loving dead you have no idea well if we're making him a svelte samurai type maybe we shrink his hitbox a little too?
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Jul 11, 2017 20:29
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make him bigger don't stop until he's the stay puft marshmallow man
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Jul 11, 2017 20:33
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Give Roadhog 1HP but change his gun to a 1000 damage hitscan railgun with infinite range and zero falloff.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:34
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gently caress it just remove hog and give Reaper the hook.The Blue Caboose posted:Sombra also kinda offers some backline protection, in that hack is generally quite effective against highly mobile flanking heroes and Sombra+support is usually a solid win against any small pokes by opportunistic flankers in a more traditional barrier fight meta. But Hog was unique in that he could delete not only Genji's and Tracers, but also Winstons and D.Vas. Hog's nerf didn't cause dive, but it certainly put the nail in the coffin. Oh yea I forgot about Sombra. Yea if she gets a hack off on either one of Winston/D.Va/Genji/Tracer they are pretty screwed.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:35
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Re: Whole Hog, it's actually okay imo for an ult to be "okay, not great" if the character it's attached to is pretty good. I would argue that Tracer is a good example of this not because her ult is bad (it isn't) but it's definitely a lot clunkier and trickier to use well than a lot of other DPS ults and you could spend all game holding onto it waiting for the perfect moment to get a five-man kill, but since it charges so quickly it's perfectly reasonable to simply use it to get choice single- and double-kills if you believe doing so will turn the tide of a fight since it charges so quickly, and Tracer herself as a character is very good so that's okay. Whole Hog is an "okay" ult but it's got some good uses, it does absolutely absurd damage by numbers alone so it can combo well with graviton because it doesn't give a poo poo about sound barrier or Rein shields or Zarya bubbles, it'll eat through that stuff like nobody's business. It can neutralize ulting Winstons completely, it can push people off cliffs, it can confirm kills, and you don't have to feel bad about wasting it because hey, it charges quick and Hog himself used to be good. It locks you into a channel you can't cancel, D.Va neutralizes it completely, and it's not just an ult you can randomly press in a fight and be guaranteed that you're doing good work, but not every ult in the game needs to be super-amazing. Of course now Roadhog himself sucks so the tradeoff is a lot less worthwhile.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:47
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Sombra's not that great of a peeler though, the hack requires you to not get hit by damage, and 3/4s of the heroes you just mentioned there do cleave damage, which will interrupt the hack, and one of them has a barrier that he can kite the hack through.
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Jul 11, 2017 20:48
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If Roadhog is the Pudge of this game then make him get stronger/durable every time he kills something, like +50 armor when he does more than 50% damage to a kill
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Jul 11, 2017 20:50
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I really just want him to have boop ability with his melee.
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Jul 11, 2017 21:26
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berenzen posted:Sombra's not that great of a peeler though, the hack requires you to not get hit by damage, and 3/4s of the heroes you just mentioned there do cleave damage, which will interrupt the hack, and one of them has a barrier that he can kite the hack through.
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Jul 11, 2017 21:29
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gently caress it, give him a bearhug and no hook, bearhug holds someone for 5 seconds, needs to be used in melee range and completely disables the enemy. Watch people claim it's OP when someone catches a bad player with it.
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Jul 11, 2017 21:29
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Thor-Stryker posted:I think Roadhog's ult could definitely use an early cancel by firing off a primary/secondary round. That way you can push people into the right spot and nail them with a skill shot. Hog Hide would be better.
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Jul 11, 2017 21:37
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After finally getting a few games on Horizon, I have to wonder what the gently caress is this map. It feels so...unsatisfying to play on. There's not much point to going out into the low-g area beyond a quickie flank and then when you actually get to where people are likely to be it makes a BIG LOUD AIRLOCK NOISE, negating the point of the silence of the low-g area.
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Jul 11, 2017 21:37
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