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Probably because of the metre.
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Sep 26, 2018 15:55
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I know a lot of people joke about pipe-weed being an equivalent to weed but, just to be clear, it's tobacco right?
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Sep 26, 2018 17:34
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It’s 100% def tobacco.
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Sep 26, 2018 17:40
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euphronius posted:Probably because of the metre. Frodo's lament for Gandalf has the same thing
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Sep 26, 2018 17:52
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euphronius posted:Probably because of the metre. Fun trick: you can sing an immense number of things, including "Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner", much of Emily Dickinson, Madonna's 'Material Girl," etc., all to the tune of "Gilligan's Island," because they all use ballad meter
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Sep 26, 2018 17:52
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quote:There is another astonishing thing about Hobbits of old that must be mentioned, an astonishing habit: they imbibed or inhaled, through pipes of clay or wood, the smoke of the burning leaves of a herb, which they called pipe-weed or leaf, a variety probably of Nicotiana. This is Tolkien as translator speaking in the prologue. One may well be skeptical of his precise identification, as no variety of Nicotiana is native to Europe. But Tolkien has thought of this: here’s Merry’s notes on the origin of the plant. quote:“All the same, observations that I have made on my own many journeys south have convinced me that the weed itself is not native to our parts of the world, but came northward from the lower Anduin, whither it was, I suspect, originally brought over Sea by the Men of Westernesse. It grows abundantly in Gondor, and there is richer and larger than in the North, where it is never found wild, and flourishes only in warm sheltered places like Longbottom.” So that’s out of the way, and there is no particular reason to suppose that it is some variety of Cannabis instead. More obviously, as depicted in the book, it does not cause a pronounced high, but rather acts as a mild stimulant and relaxant, much like tobacco.
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Sep 26, 2018 17:55
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skasion posted:So that’s out of the way, and there is no particular reason to suppose that it is some variety of Cannabis instead. More obviously, as depicted in the book, it does not cause a pronounced high, but rather acts as a mild stimulant and relaxant, much like tobacco. Cool thanks. I don't smoke so I don't know how a thing can be both stimulating and relaxing but I'll leave it at that. Also, this brings up an idea of Numenor being like the Americas then.
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Sep 26, 2018 18:21
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The real reason Gandalf didn't say anything during that meeting with Saruman is he was high as gently caress and didn't know where he was so just sat there and quietly panicked for a while
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Sep 26, 2018 18:32
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Gandalf was entirely sober when he threatened to push a child down a well.
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Sep 26, 2018 18:45
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100YrsofAttitude posted:Cool thanks. I don't smoke so I don't know how a thing can be both stimulating and relaxing but I'll leave it at that. It is a confusing idea, known as Nesbitt’s paradox: nicotine is indubitably a stimulant and increases physiological arousal, but users tend to report that it leads to a sense of psychological relaxation. Research suggests that this sense of relaxation is kind of relative/illusory: if you smoke tobacco a lot, then you will feel bad when you’re not smoking it and good when you’re smoking it. Here’s a review on the subject. Probably has a lot to do with why Gandalf is such a jerk. Númenor is Atlantis, straight up. If it has connections with a real-world nation then it’s probably the British Empire that we should be thinking of.
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Sep 26, 2018 18:48
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sassassin posted:Gandalf was entirely sober when he threatened to push a child down a well. That "child" was like thirty!
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Sep 26, 2018 18:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Fun trick: you can sing an immense number of things, including "Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner", much of Emily Dickinson, Madonna's 'Material Girl," etc., all to the tune of "Gilligan's Island," because they all use ballad meter Emily Dickinson is more fun to sing to The Yellow Rose of Texas.
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Sep 26, 2018 18:56
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Runcible Cat posted:Emily Dickinson is more fun to sing to The Yellow Rose of Texas. I feel like this thread would probably enjoy a good round of One Song to the Tune of Another.
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Sep 26, 2018 19:21
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skasion posted:It is a confusing idea, known as Nesbitt’s paradox: nicotine is indubitably a stimulant and increases physiological arousal, but users tend to report that it leads to a sense of psychological relaxation. Research suggests that this sense of relaxation is kind of relative/illusory: if you smoke tobacco a lot, then you will feel bad when you’re not smoking it and good when you’re smoking it. Here’s a review on the subject. Probably has a lot to do with why Gandalf is such a jerk. Both those things make enough sense. Thanks!
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Sep 26, 2018 19:35
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I mean I personally just use the existence of tobacco and potatoes in middle earth as a reason to dismiss the narrative conceit that this is the distant past of the real world (other than y'know the fact that archaeologists have never found any elven ruins). Once you abandon that you're pretty free to not worry about it
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Sep 26, 2018 19:43
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Or the narrator was just using now familiar words for ancient and now forgotten analogs.
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Sep 26, 2018 19:45
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skasion posted:
Mostly but not entirely. In the Letters, Tolkien talks about a recurring nightmare he had since the time he was a small child, of a great wave rising and drowning over the whole land, and how that dream was an inspiration for Númenor.
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Sep 26, 2018 19:47
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Mostly but not entirely. In the Letters, Tolkien talks about a recurring nightmare he had since the time he was a small child, of a great wave rising and drowning over the whole land, and how that dream was an inspiration for Númenor. Huh I thought it was tradition because it seems the idea of a Flood, isn't all that uncommon.
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Sep 26, 2018 20:05
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100YrsofAttitude posted:Huh I thought it was tradition because it seems the idea of a Flood, isn't all that uncommon. http://users.abo.fi/jolin/tolkien/inspirations/great_wave_the_faramirs_dream.htm Various quotes on the subject here. It was a recurring personal nightmare he had as far back as he can remember, but one that he of course tangled up with the Flood, Atlantis, etc., as he would.
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Sep 26, 2018 20:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:That "child" was like thirty! Barely out of his tweens!
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Sep 26, 2018 20:33
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cheetah7071 posted:I mean I personally just use the existence of tobacco and potatoes in middle earth as a reason to dismiss the narrative conceit that this is the distant past of the real world (other than y'know the fact that archaeologists have never found any elven ruins). Once you abandon that you're pretty free to not worry about it It's an account from the post-apocalyptic future, sent back through time by magic (this would have been mentioned in Tolkien's dark & edgy sequel about Sauron cults spreading through New Gondor).
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Sep 26, 2018 20:36
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Obviously, we aren't talking about literal and specific potatoes and tobacco, but now-extinct relatives of those plants. If pipe weed were tobacco, he'd have translated it as tobacco; it isn't; it's a relative.
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Sep 26, 2018 20:49
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Sometimes I think the events in the LOTR didn’t actually happen. But I get back on board eventually.
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Sep 26, 2018 20:50
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Obviously, we aren't talking about literal and specific potatoes and tobacco, but now-extinct relatives of those plants. If pipe weed were tobacco, he'd have translated it as tobacco; it isn't; it's a relative.
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Sep 26, 2018 21:28
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Nessus posted:Isn't "tobacco" ultimately a term from a Native American language? So is "potato" but it's at least at one remove and Tolkien would no doubt be less familiar with South American trivia. Speculation: "tobacco" didn't meet Tolkien's aesthetic preferences, while "pipe-weed" is exactly the sort of Germanic compound word he would like, especially since both components appear to have been in Old English.
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Sep 26, 2018 21:32
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Should've done what the French have and called a potato a ground-apple then.
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Sep 26, 2018 21:34
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100YrsofAttitude posted:Should've done what the French have and called a potato a ground-apple then. Gollum asking Sam what ground apples are makes more sense in this context.
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Sep 26, 2018 21:38
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100YrsofAttitude posted:Should've done what the French have and called a potato a ground-apple then. That is unironically cool.
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Sep 27, 2018 00:28
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skasion posted:It is a confusing idea, known as Nesbitt’s paradox: nicotine is indubitably a stimulant and increases physiological arousal, but users tend to report that it leads to a sense of psychological relaxation. Research suggests that this sense of relaxation is kind of relative/illusory: if you smoke tobacco a lot, then you will feel bad when you’re not smoking it and good when you’re smoking it. Here’s a review on the subject. Probably has a lot to do with why Gandalf is such a jerk. This is also what happens with caffeine addiction, btw. People who need a coffee/soda fix will often feel tension or get headaches and muscle soreness or develop a general “off” feeling of malaise if they go too long without their regular infusion of go-juice.  Ynglaur posted:That is unironically cool. pomme de terre
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Sep 27, 2018 06:33
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Electric Bugaloo posted:pomme de terre The more fitting translation would be "earth-apple", since "terre" can refer to both ground and earth, and the Dutch/Flemmish word "aardappel" translates to earth-apple, "ground apple" would be "grondappel". The French got the word from the Dutch, or the other way around.
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Sep 27, 2018 15:56
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Bad Wolf posted:The more fitting translation would be "earth-apple", since "terre" can refer to both ground and earth, and the Dutch/Flemmish word "aardappel" translates to earth-apple, "ground apple" would be "grondappel". The French got the word from the Dutch, or the other way around. Terre can also mean soil (like the way we use “dirt”) like the Spanish “tierra” which also means ground and earth.
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Sep 27, 2018 19:48
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Bad Wolf posted:The more fitting translation would be "earth-apple", since "terre" can refer to both ground and earth, and the Dutch/Flemmish word "aardappel" translates to earth-apple, "ground apple" would be "grondappel". The French got the word from the Dutch, or the other way around. I had thought of that, and dirt-apple, but I don't think we use earth to mean dirt as often in English, and I felt it would come off as "Earth-apple" which doesn't make nearly as much sense, and dirt-apple really doesn't sound appealing, nor would soil-apple, because an added 'd' would make it soiled.
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Sep 28, 2018 09:44
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Fruit of the earth ?
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Sep 28, 2018 10:57
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Taters.
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Sep 28, 2018 11:01
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In Standard German potatoes are called "Kartoffeln" which apparently comes from the Italian "tartufolo" and originally means "small truffle" because they both grow in the ground, I guess. In some southern dialects they are also called "Erdäpfel" (earth-apples) or "Grundbirnen" (ground-pears) 
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Sep 30, 2018 17:23
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Here’s a passage I have never seen explained, from when Elrond sends out scouts before the company leaves Rivendell:quote:The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return; they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode into a strange country, but of their errand they would not speak to any save to Elrond. Passing down the Silverlode means that the strange country must have been Lothlórien. Not an unreasonable place to go since Elrond/Aragorn/Gandalf are probably already thinking they’ll have to travel that way themselves, and it makes sense to send Elladan and Elrohir there since they’re close family of the Lady, but what would be so special about their errand there that they wouldn’t speak of it?
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Oct 1, 2018 20:06
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skasion posted:Here’s a passage I have never seen explained, from when Elrond sends out scouts before the company leaves Rivendell: I assumed they were personally informing Galadriel of the Fellowship's composition and plans. She might have known/perceived that anyways since her and Elrond seem to have some gifts of foresight though. Galadriel seems to know a lot about the whole company when they meet her and seems to divine their desires. But that would likely be easier to do if she knew exactly who they were and what they were all about before they even got there.
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Oct 1, 2018 20:20
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Ginette Reno posted:I assumed they were personally informing Galadriel of the Fellowship's composition and plans. She might have known/perceived that anyways since her and Elrond seem to have some gifts of foresight though. They can’t have told her in so many words, because these things had not yet been decided when they left. It’s only after they return that Elrond decides on the members of the company and Gandalf and Aragorn begin to make definite plans about the route. I guess they could have just updated her on the decisions of the Council — I don’t think that elvish telepathy can operate over that kind of distance or why would they have bothered making palantiri — but I’m not sure why they bother keeping that secret from everyone but Elrond. Everyone in Rivendell important enough to care about was already at the Council and knew the plan.
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Oct 1, 2018 20:47
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skasion posted:I don’t think that elvish telepathy can operate over that kind of distance or why would they have bothered making palantiri Elves didn't make the palantiri, the Numenoreans did. Galadriel just used, like, a bowl and some water.
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Oct 1, 2018 20:53
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The palantiri were gifts to numenor from the noldor of eressea.
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Oct 1, 2018 20:56
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