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I'm just wondering how many people in this thread have actually encountered someone wearing a burqa, ever. The first time I did (in Morocco), it really was quite a shock because it hides everything about the person, including the eyes. The burqa has nothing to do with fashion. If you're not used to being around people wearing them, it really comes across as a feeling that that the wearer does not want to communicate with you and is operating on the assumption that you would probably be a sexual predator if given the opportunity. It really is quite creepy (I'm still opposed to banning them though).
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Aug 16, 2016 21:37
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freelancemoth posted:Again, stop relativise oppression because the person in question is not a lily white western women. Said the guy whose sole apparent exception for why context matters in these things is a muslim woman wanting to wear a specific article of clothing.
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Aug 16, 2016 21:38
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Pluskut Tukker posted:I'm just wondering how many people in this thread have actually encountered someone wearing a burqa, ever. The first time I did (in Morocco), it really was quite a shock because it hides everything about the person, including the eyes. The burqa has nothing to do with fashion. If you're not used to being around people wearing them, it really comes across as a feeling that that the wearer does not want to communicate with you and is operating on the assumption that you would probably be a sexual predator if given the opportunity. It really is quite creepy (I'm still opposed to banning them though). Yeah, you don't have to like them. I certainly don't.
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Aug 16, 2016 21:39
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Majorian posted:B-b-but that can't be! When Riso thinks of a European, it's always a white atheist. Anyone else couldn't possibly be a European.
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Aug 16, 2016 21:40
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freelancemoth posted:Context for the burqa: So you are once again making the claim that only Muslim women of one particular strain of their religion are the only people pressured to wear a specific article of clothing. I just want to confirm if you actually believe this is true. Pluskut Tukker posted:I'm just wondering how many people in this thread have actually encountered someone wearing a burqa, ever. The first time I did (in Morocco), it really was quite a shock because it hides everything about the person, including the eyes. The burqa has nothing to do with fashion. If you're not used to being around people wearing them, it really comes across as a feeling that that the wearer does not want to communicate with you and is operating on the assumption that you would probably be a sexual predator if given the opportunity. It really is quite creepy (I'm still opposed to banning them though). As in seen or talked with them? Most (Western/Northern) Europeans see a burqa max one time a year because it is exceedingly rare, which just makes the wole issue even more pointless. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 16, 2016 21:40
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I doubt that. Riso is proudly Papist. Noted and edited! My main point still stands though.
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Aug 16, 2016 21:42
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Majorian posted:It's not really that difficult: create mechanisms for women to live as they want to live (whether that be in a conservative religious group or otherwise), and then let them come to the majority culture's values on their own volition. Trying to force them to assimilate just creates resistance and unintended consequences, like increased DAESH recruitment. This is very nearly a carbon copy of William F Buckley's notorious, and outrageously, provably wrong, argument that segregation would wither away on its own without Federal intervention. After all, is it really the government's business if a particular neighborhood wants to create contracts which have the effect of preventing people from a certain ethnicity from living in their neighborhood? They aren't doing any harm to society as a whole right? And trying to pressure them into changing would just make them resist more. That was Buckley's argument in 1957, and your argument today. We agree there shouldn't be an outright ban. But you seem to be denying that wearing the burqa is an act of aggression towards any non patriarchally enslaved woman who sees it. The onus is on Muslim communities and families to stop signaling their opposition to equality by wearing this awful garment. Your solution, that European states have to just do nothing and hope for the best, is enormously unsatisfactory and a political non-starter. Why are you clinging to it? If you are against the burqa ban put forth an alternative that secularist will find acceptable.
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Aug 16, 2016 21:49
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freelancemoth posted:A burqa oppresses women since it only applies to women. The second wave feminists saw this clearly enough why can't the modern left do it? Guess we need to ban literally everything but 1970s sci-fi jumpsuits then. 
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Aug 16, 2016 21:49
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DarkCrawler posted:So you are once again making the claim that only Muslim women of one particular strain of their religion are the only people pressured to wear a specific article of clothing. I just want to confirm if you actually believe this is true. No, but the burqa represent a version of islam that is extremely sexist because it "demands" that women adhere to a man's "honor". And it should be said that a burqa ban wouldn't in its self remove all misogyny within islam or that it liberate would women over night. But it would be a good step of showing the common values of a modern society that says: "Women's rights cannot be infringed upon because of traditional values". And again, don't stop relativizing one version of sexist oppression because you don't want to appear racist.
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Aug 16, 2016 21:51
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I wear a burka,but only because im excedingly hideous.stop beauty shaming me western society!
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Aug 16, 2016 21:52
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freelancemoth posted:No, but the burqa represent a version of islam that is extremely sexist because it "demands" that women adhere to a man's "honor". And it should be said that a burqa ban wouldn't in its self remove all misogyny within islam or that it liberate would women over night. But it would be a good step of showing the common values of a modern society that says: "Women's rights cannot be infringed upon because of traditional values". He said, directly after declaring his desire to dictate to women what they may not wear because he doesn't want to appear sexist.
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Aug 16, 2016 21:56
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freelancemoth posted:No, but the burqa represent a version of islam that is extremely sexist because it "demands" that women adhere to a man's "honor". And it should be said that a burqa ban wouldn't in its self remove all misogyny within islam or that it liberate would women over night. But it would be a good step of showing the common values of a modern society that says: "Women's rights cannot be infringed upon because of traditional values". I don't personally believe any sexist oppression is OK, so I'm going to keep "relativizing" them. Sorry if you think an abusive husband mandating what his wife wears or a conservative Christian family controlling their daughter doesn't meet your standards for oppression. That to me tells what your actual motivation with burqa ban is, and it tells it in pretty clear terms. Burqa is a piece of clothing. Since you refuse to answer this, one more time, do you or do you not want all costumes with face masks to be illegal or not?
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Aug 16, 2016 21:56
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icantfindaname posted:a large part of the European working class is Muslim The largest proportion of muslims in a Western European country is 7.5%, so if you go for the "working class = poorest x%" definition, it's quite hard for them to make up a large proportion unless x is very low and most Muslims are poor. If you go for the "working class = low-income workers" definition, you run into the problem that European Muslims don't work much.
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Aug 16, 2016 21:57
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Majorian posted:Which side of the spectrum, do you feel, hearing a hijab or a burqini falls closer to? Wearing a burqini to a public beach falls closer to the " Marching In falangist uniforms" side of the spectrum because Saudi Arabia, Iran, Daesh, and the majority of middle eastern nations make full-covering garments for women a centerpiece of their ongoing projects of oppression. The public beach is actually a pretty important symbolic space vis-a-vis gender equality and sexual liberation. Attempting to reclaim it for religious conservatism is an extremely anti-social act in the context of the present day and time.
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Aug 16, 2016 21:58
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DarkCrawler posted:As in seen or talked with them? Most (Western/Northern) Europeans see a burqa max one time a year because it is exceedingly rare, which just makes the wole issue even more pointless. As in seen, I guess (talked with would probably be too much to hope for). And you're right, when here in the Netherlands people were discussing a burqa ban , it turned out that there were only about 100 women or so in the entire country wearing them, which made clear that the point of banning burqas was more about playing to anti-Muslim sentiment than it was about rescuing women from oppression. That doesn't mean burqas don't oppress though.
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Aug 16, 2016 21:59
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Geriatric Pirate posted:The largest proportion of muslims in a Western European country is 7.5%, so if you go for the "working class = poorest x%" definition, it's quite hard for them to make up a large proportion unless x is very low and most Muslims are poor. If you go for the "working class = low-income workers" definition, you run into the problem that European Muslims don't work much. Most of European Muslims work. Most of them and their descendants are in this continent because of Muslims literally being invited here for work. Don't equivocate "Muslims" with "refugees".
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Aug 16, 2016 21:59
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Literally without exception, everywhere in the world that this kind of religious modesty becomes the norm, it has become mandatory. Why are Majorian and drilldo squirt et al. so adamant in telling Europeans they aren't allowed to push back or even vocally criticize this practice metastasizing into Europe? Personally I suspect that theyre closet social conservatives who actually agree with the religious traditionalists to at least some degree in terms of what they want Society to look like in 20 years.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:03
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It has been 12 pages, can you guys let go with the Burka in the EuroPol thread?  Sorry not trying to backchair mod or whatever, all in good spirits and humour but hey come on.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:04
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DarkCrawler posted:
Confederate flag is just a piece of cloth. Swastika is just a geometric shape. Etc etc
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Aug 16, 2016 22:04
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Ligur posted:It has been 12 pages, can you guys let go with the Burka in the EuroPol thread? Blame the mods for being too trigger-happy and closing all of the threads that the Forum actually had for discussing these issues specifically.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:05
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DarkCrawler posted:Most of European Muslims work. Most of them and their descendants are in this continent because of Muslims literally being invited here for work. Don't equivocate "Muslims" with "refugees". It probably varies quite a bit per country but you're ignoring the fact that most people in Europe don't work, period. Given the problems many Muslims (including second generation ones) have, classifying them as working (let alone having them constitute a majority of the working class) is difficult, even though some would fall into "working class" by being families of those that work. Just some back of the envelope math: Labor force participation in France is 56%, then 10% unemployment on top of that means about half of all people work. Muslims will generally have much higher unemployment rates as well as much more children / young people, as well as lower female labor force participation.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:07
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Liberal_L33t posted:Literally without exception, everywhere in the world that this kind of religious modesty becomes the norm, it has become mandatory. Why are Majorian and drilldo squirt et al. so adamant in telling Europeans they aren't allowed to push back or even vocally criticize this practice metastasizing into Europe? I am an European so umm gently caress you I want to keep living in a country that doesn't legally mandate what I or anyone else is allowed to wear, how does that make me a social conservative? Please explain it. Also there are literally no countries where the majority of the population wears a burqa, nor any where it is mandatory. Geriatric Pirate posted:It probably varies quite a bit per country but you're ignoring the fact that most people in Europe don't work, period. Given the problems many Muslims (including second generation ones) have, classifying them as working (let alone having them constitute a majority of the working class) is difficult, even though some would fall into "working class" by being families of those that work. Well yes, I was talking about people who are eligible to work. Also I have always assumed that "working class" counts families as well. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 16, 2016 22:07
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DarkCrawler posted:I don't personally believe any sexist oppression is OK, so I'm going to keep "relativizing" them. Sorry if you think an abusive husband mandating what his wife wears or a conservative Christian family controlling their daughter doesn't meet your standards for oppression. That to me tells what your actual motivation with burqa ban is, and it tells it in pretty clear terms. Anti-mask laws already exist and have a different purpose. freelancemoth fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 16, 2016 22:08
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Double post ignore
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Aug 16, 2016 22:11
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Protestant work ethic is part of white American culture, therefore we should protect the right of American workers to voluntarily work, even if it is for for peanuts, by removing all employment regulations since the cultural enrichment it would entail is more important than any material or psychological harm done to the workers.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:15
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DarkCrawler posted:I am an European so umm gently caress you You're splitting hairs. The exact garment of the burqa may not be mandated, but the fact is that in the majority of muslim-majority nations women are not free to dress how they choose. Especially if we don't give a whole country credit for a single capital city where the culture has managed to drag themselves out of the Dark Ages and is now besieged buy a sea of fanatics surrounding them (which, regrettably, Turkey has just slipped back into)
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Aug 16, 2016 22:15
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freelancemoth posted:I also against sexist oppression, but I have different ideas of achieving them. In the same way two people can argue over gender representation on corporate boards of directors and have different views on it. One can be for quotas and the other don't. But what I won't do is hold back because the oppression facing women happens to be from a man with a different background. (This includes radicals of sorts) No, instead you're holding back because the man happens to be from a native majority background. Hence the hypocrisy. Your different ideas about banning symbols and/or clothing that can be tied to oppression seem to be limited to Muslim women or to counting only things defined by the native majority population as oppression. Mask laws apply to burqa too without banning the whole clothing. Again, should I be allowed to walk around in a full body pink ninja costume or not? Liberal_L33t posted:You're splitting hairs. The exact garment of the burqa may not be mandated, but the fact is that in the majority of muslim-majority nations women are not free to dress how they choose. Especially if we don't give a whole country credit for a single capital city where the culture has managed to drag themselves out of the Dark Ages and is now besieged buy a sea of fanatics surrounding them (which, regrettably, Turkey has just slipped back into) I'm not splitting hairs. We were talking about the burqa. You want to make a statement about Islam and/or Islamic countries in general, feel free to so so in a separate discussion? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 16, 2016 22:16
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DarkCrawler posted:Also there are literally no countries where the majority of the population wears a burqa, nor any where it is mandatory. European ones you mean. There's always Saudi Barbaria, Sudan and (southern) Iraq.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:16
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DarkCrawler posted:No, instead you're holding back because the man happens to be from a native majority background. Hence the hypocrisy. Your different ideas about banning symbols and/or clothing that can be tied to oppression seem to be limited to Muslim women or to counting only things defined by the native majority population as oppression. You most certainly shouldn't.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:16
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DarkCrawler posted:No, instead you're holding back because the man happens to be from a native majority background. Hence the hypocrisy. Your different ideas about banning symbols and/or clothing that can be tied to oppression seem to be limited to Muslim women or to counting only things defined by the native majority population as oppression. So the oppression is worse when it is from a "majority" person whereas a "minority" person can always be explained within the spectrum institutionalized racism? Fantastic. And yes, you can be Filthy Frank if you want to. But don't go near a kindergarten because they might call the cops. Consequences, dumbass.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:19
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Man Europe sounds like a poo poo place if I can't wear a pink ninja costume.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:19
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steinrokkan posted:You most certainly shouldn't. But seriously, this sort of comparison never makes sense. Being interned at hospital and serving a prison sentence is in many ways similar, yet we are able to recognize the differences between them. But somehow in this specific case people throw away all ability to read social content, and turn effectively into willful autists.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:21
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Nitrousoxide posted:Man Europe sounds like a poo poo place if I can't wear a pink ninja costume. Please move somewhere else if you must pollute your surroundings with anime garbage.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:22
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Riso posted:Saudi Barbaria This kind of cute nicknames belongs to kindergarten recess, not a political debate thread. Even if the thread has gone stupid over burkas, once again.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:22
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That's okay. I live in gaijin land of the more risingner sun
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Aug 16, 2016 22:23
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Riso posted:European ones you mean. None of those countries require a burqa. If you recognize Daesh, sucks for you freelancemoth posted:So the oppression is worse when it is from a "majority" person whereas a "minority" person can always be explained within the spectrum institutionalized racism? Fantastic. No, oppression is bad no matter who does. What you do is outlaw the oppression itself, not start outlawing one opressive piece of clothing in one strain of one religion. It is in fact already illegal to tell grown people what to wear! So again, masked clothing is OK for me, a man, but not for her, a woman. This is your argument (I feel like I've tried to clarify your position long enough to make this determination) DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 16, 2016 |
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Aug 16, 2016 22:23
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Cat Mattress posted:This kind of cute nicknames belongs to kindergarten recess, not a political debate thread. Prove me wrong about Saudi Barbaria and I will stop.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:25
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People should be free to wear what they want. Time for a timeout.
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Aug 16, 2016 22:27
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DarkCrawler posted:I want to keep living in a country that doesn't legally mandate what I or anyone else is allowed to wear, Sorry, but your country already has legal mandates for what everyone is allowed to wear. For instance, you can't walk around naked in the streets. Why not? It's obviously not a security concern (if anything it promotes security). Switzerland, until recently, had some cantons where it was legal to walk around naked. Then nudists came and started doing it, then locals got offended, and they made a law against walking naked. Why should banning the burqa for exactly the same reasons be any different? VV: Sorry, I only got through about the last 5 pages of idiocy and didn't see anything about naked people. So what was the conclusion, and if so why are people still talking about this on this very page? Parts of Switzerland just recently banned the burqa so it's a fresh topic here. Saladman fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Aug 17, 2016 |
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Aug 17, 2016 10:44
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e; ^gently caress you, personally. Alright, hopefully you guys had a breather by now. As much as yesterday's discussion might have been in a European context it had been going in circles from the start and drowning out every other thread-related discussion that might have popped up. gently caress that. If you want to discuss that poo poo take it to another thread. If you want to respond to something someone posted here, take it to another thread. Secular God knows the past three days of discussion have shown it would be a high-activity thread. This is not to say this particular subject is banned from discussion here when it's put in a relevant context, but gently caress man, if you are about to make a post and you are not going to be saying anything that hasn't already been repeated over and over in the past 20 pages, then loving don't.
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Aug 17, 2016 10:45
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