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Top 8 lists up anywhere yet?
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Nov 20, 2016 23:37
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Willeh posted:I have a feeling that after the world Cup they're gonna ban some infect cards and possibly also hit dredge. Grave troll isn't the problem, it's the enablers like cathartic reunion. Having to play tormenting voice instead again would probably neuter the deck just enough to be ok. Become immense is kinda goofy though, infect would still be good without it and I've seen immense-less suicide zoo. Didn't see any suicide zoo at WMC this weekend, UR fiend seems to be the new hotness. TheKingofSprings posted:Top 8 lists up anywhere yet? Modern WMC decklists: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/2016WMC/top-8-team-decklists-2016-11-19 Standard open is 4 b/g delirium, 3 w/u flash, 1 jeskai control. Blah. Fingers McLongDong fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Nov 20, 2016 |
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Nov 20, 2016 23:39
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Fingers McLongDong posted:Grave troll isn't the problem, it's the enablers like cathartic reunion. Having to play tormenting voice instead again would probably neuter the deck just enough to be ok. Become immense is kinda goofy though, infect would still be good without it and I've seen immense-less suicide zoo. Didn't see any suicide zoo at WMC this weekend, UR fiend seems to be the new hotness. Reunion is a legitimate card that should remain in modern, imho. I'd rather they ban one of the reanimatable creatures, even if that kills the deck.
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Nov 20, 2016 23:41
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Fingers McLongDong posted:Didn't see any suicide zoo at WMC this weekend, UR fiend seems to be the new hotness. Suicide zoo is an incredibly greedy deck in a format like the WMC, it runs 5 different shocklands, a bunch of different fetches, probe, bolt, BI/TBR, Path(at least in the board), Thoughtseize, Swiftspear at least. That cuts your teammates off from a lot of other decks.
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Nov 20, 2016 23:43
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Rinkles posted:Reunion is a legitimate card that should remain in modern, imho. I'd rather they ban one of the reanimatable creatures, even if that kills the deck. That's the thing, none of those creatures are problematic by themselves. Reunion isn't even an abusive card outside of dredge, but it's an upgrade to the previous enabler that wasn't too bad. Banning bloodghast or amalgam would kill the deck and probably make old vengevine versions come back and they weren't that great. Elyv posted:Suicide zoo is an incredibly greedy deck in a format like the WMC, it runs 5 different shocklands, a bunch of different fetches, probe, bolt, BI/TBR, Path(at least in the board), Thoughtseize, Swiftspear at least. That cuts your teammates off from a lot of other decks. Forgot about that, you're completely right.
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Nov 20, 2016 23:47
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Fingers McLongDong posted:Grave troll isn't the problem, it's the enablers like cathartic reunion. Having to play tormenting voice instead again would probably neuter the deck just enough to be ok. Become immense is kinda goofy though, infect would still be good without it and I've seen immense-less suicide zoo. Didn't see any suicide zoo at WMC this weekend, UR fiend seems to be the new hotness. The problem with banning Become Immense is a design space issue. One of green's gimmicks is to have power/toughness increasing combat tricks, and banning one creates a line in the sand of how far they can push such a spell. There will always be another cheap pump spell, and eventually one will be either be too cheap or pump too much and have to be banned as well due to precedent? If they actually want to neuter Infect they'd have to ban one of the Infect creatures itself, which may kill the deck entirely rather than just weaken it. Banning Glistener Elf (the source of most T2 kills) would slow the deck down and may cause some new builds with Necropedes or Phyrexian Crusader. But that feels to close to the original weird logic behind banning Wild Nacatl.
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Nov 21, 2016 00:52
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I think we will see something from infect, just purely based on coverage alone. We did see a t2 kill on coverage during the top 8 from infect and Rich specifically called on infect and become immense when they talked about the card of the tournament. Dredge-wise I don't think wizards will reban grave troll, it would admit they've done something wrong and look bad. The deck was crazy prior to reunion, reunion just put it more over the top. As someone identified, hitting one of the out of the graveyard threats would be the best way to target it, so that is BG, amalgam or Narcomoeba. Bloodghast or amalgam would be lights out. But what about Narcomoeba? Hear me out... It would cut off a lot of the stupid t2 untap with 10 power in play ready to attack draws and that is what people mostly complain about and it help slow the deck down a bit. Wizards seems to be leaning nowadays towards making bans that will scale back a deck as opposed to completely kill it.
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Nov 21, 2016 00:57
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PhyrexianLibrarian posted:The problem with banning Become Immense is a design space issue. One of green's gimmicks is to have power/toughness increasing combat tricks, and banning one creates a line in the sand of how far they can push such a spell. There will always be another cheap pump spell, and eventually one will be either be too cheap or pump too much and have to be banned as well due to precedent? If they actually want to neuter Infect they'd have to ban one of the Infect creatures itself, which may kill the deck entirely rather than just weaken it. Banning Glistener Elf (the source of most T2 kills) would slow the deck down and may cause some new builds with Necropedes or Phyrexian Crusader. But that feels to close to the original weird logic behind banning Wild Nacatl. We agree that green shouldn't have an instant that costs G and reads "Target creature gets +20/+20 until end of turn", and that if such a card existed then it would need to be banned. There is a line somewhere that shouldn't be crossed, and we shouldn't be fundamentally unwilling to ever admit to having reached it. There's nothing magical about power/toughness boosts that makes it impossible for them to be unbalanced, and trying to apply the same reasoning elsewhere doesn't seem to work very well: "The problem with banning Ponder is a design space issue. One of blue's gimmicks is to have card filter cantrips, and banning one creates a line in the sand of how far they can push such a spell. There will always be another cheap cantrip, and eventually one will be either be too cheap or filter too much and have to be banned as well due to precedent?"
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Nov 21, 2016 01:07
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Ponder's ban is bullshit now that all the combo decks that used it ended up individually banned later anyway.
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Nov 21, 2016 01:19
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Preordain should be legal, at the very least.
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Nov 21, 2016 01:20
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delerium mirrors are the most boring poo poo imaginable
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Nov 21, 2016 01:25
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little munchkin posted:delerium mirrors are the most boring poo poo imaginable 
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Nov 21, 2016 01:27
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45 minutes of casters speculating what Brad Nelson might be thinking about and it's only game 2
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Nov 21, 2016 01:31
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gaining 400 is at least theoretically interesting, and actually involves making plays instead of just constantly counting your lands and pushing your glasses up
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Nov 21, 2016 01:35
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Lottery of Babylon posted:We agree that green shouldn't have an instant that costs G and reads "Target creature gets +20/+20 until end of turn", and that if such a card existed then it would need to be banned. There is a line somewhere that shouldn't be crossed, and we shouldn't be fundamentally unwilling to ever admit to having reached it. There's nothing magical about power/toughness boosts that makes it impossible for them to be unbalanced, and trying to apply the same reasoning elsewhere doesn't seem to work very well: If anything I'd argue that "putting delve on a card" is a pretty clear line, as evidenced by other cards that have been banned.
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Nov 21, 2016 01:43
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Delve is really cool, I'm glad they brought back the mechanic and I hope they try tweaking it in the future.
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Nov 21, 2016 01:53
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Lottery of Babylon posted:We agree that green shouldn't have an instant that costs G and reads "Target creature gets +20/+20 until end of turn", and that if such a card existed then it would need to be banned. There is a line somewhere that shouldn't be crossed, and we shouldn't be fundamentally unwilling to ever admit to having reached it. There's nothing magical about power/toughness boosts that makes it impossible for them to be unbalanced, and trying to apply the same reasoning elsewhere doesn't seem to work very well: OK fair point, but funny you mention that, because I do think Ponder would be fine for the format. It's been gone for over 5 years and was cut to slow down fast combo decks like Storm & Blazing Shoal, which are gone for their own reasons. A better analogy would be Stoneforge Mystic. Whether it's safe or not now, keeping it banned does theoretically let them print stronger equipment without worrying about immediately breaking a format. Banning an infect creature would let them print more tricks without worrying about breaking Infect even further. Banning Become Immense is like banning Batterskull.
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Nov 21, 2016 01:53
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Wizards will not print stronger equipment and equipment would probably still be bad if Stoneforge were legal, whether or not Wizards was gunshy about printing more powerful equipment.
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Nov 21, 2016 01:56
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I play infect and, as I've said before, think a BI ban would be fair. But then something would have to nerf dredge or else hail our new graveyard overlords.
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Nov 21, 2016 01:59
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PhyrexianLibrarian posted:I've been meaning to check that store out for Thursday Legacy, I'm just across the bay. Ever been? Never for Magic but I went to their board game night regularly years ago.
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Nov 21, 2016 02:19
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Lottery of Babylon posted:We agree that green shouldn't have an instant that costs G and reads "Target creature gets +20/+20 until end of turn", and that if such a card existed then it would need to be banned. There is a line somewhere that shouldn't be crossed, and we shouldn't be fundamentally unwilling to ever admit to having reached it. There's nothing magical about power/toughness boosts that makes it impossible for them to be unbalanced, and trying to apply the same reasoning elsewhere doesn't seem to work very well: Along this line, I think +4/+4 for 1 mana like the other pumps in infect are a good line. It's more damage for 1 mana than something like a bolt, but the downside is it has to be done through a creature. That's borderline and upside in infect though, where it's virtually double that. Basically it's delve that is the problem. Delve and Phyrexian mana seem to have been incredibly difficult to balance. If BI was banned infect would just go back to playing more groundswell and go up to 4 blossoming defense, which seems to be happening already.
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Nov 21, 2016 03:19
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Wasn't Infect pretty much "regular good" before Become Immense anyway? Seems pretty easy to point to +6+6 for G being well past the line in the sand, especially given we know exactly how good the deck is without it, namely "perfectly competitive without being format warping". Also the fact that combat tricks are probably the least common type of card that ever see constructed play, drawing a hard line on how good they can be when one of them is helping make one particular deck overpowered doesn't seem so absurd.
MiddleEastBeast fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 03:44
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Fingers McLongDong posted:Along this line, I think +4/+4 for 1 mana like the other pumps in infect are a good line. It's more damage for 1 mana than something like a bolt, but the downside is it has to be done through a creature. That's borderline and upside in infect though, where it's virtually double that. Basically it's delve that is the problem. Delve and Phyrexian mana seem to have been incredibly difficult to balance. If BI was banned infect would just go back to playing more groundswell and go up to 4 blossoming defense, which seems to be happening already. Seems like the general limit for pushed 1 mana pumps is +4/+4 for G, but with some limitation on how or when it can be used. Banning the +6/+6 for G seems pretty reasonable, especially since there is already a suitable selection of replacement cards and they just printed Blossoming Defense. Delve and Phyrexian mana spells: two great mistakes that go great together! Rinkles posted:Reunion is a legitimate card that should remain in modern, imho. I'd rather they ban one of the reanimatable creatures, even if that kills the deck. Real question: what deck uses Reunion other than Dredge? Doesn't every other graveyard deck prefer to use effects like Faithless Looting that gives them better selection on the discard and doesn't get 3-for-1'ed by countermagic if being cast fairly? As I understand it, the discard > draw sequence is preferable only for how it interacts with Dredge outlets and a drawback in any other situation. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 03:57
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Become Immense is a problem because it enables an already fast and consistent deck to steal games.
ThePeavstenator fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 04:04
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Although I think Gitaxian Probe is the worst card in Modern I'm joining mcmagic in his crusade against it.
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Nov 21, 2016 04:06
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Yeah I'm gonna also say I'm okay with Git Probe loving off forever, even at the cost of agreeing with McMagic. Maybe ban Git probe and then give back one of the real cantrips that you have to spend mana for.
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Nov 21, 2016 04:12
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Voyager I posted:Real question: what deck uses Reunion other than Dredge? Doesn't every other graveyard deck prefer to use effects like Faithless Looting that gives them better selection on the discard and doesn't get 3-for-1'ed by countermagic if being cast fairly? As I understand it, the discard > draw sequence is preferable only for how it interacts with Dredge outlets and a drawback in any other situation. I've seen tormenting voice in some fairly fair decks, but my point was mostly hypothetical. Main advantage over Faithless looting is that it's not card disadvantage.
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Nov 21, 2016 04:16
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Voice and reunion probably wouldn't see any play outside of dredge. Discarding as a cost is so good on those partially because even if it's countered, you'll still get value out of it. I think the fact that reunion isn't played anywhere else kinda adds to the argument to ban it in order to slow dredge down. Doesn't hurt anything else, has a suitable replacement, and people shouldn't be able to dredge 20+ cards by turn 2 anymore.
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Nov 21, 2016 04:23
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Other than Mental Misstep I think Gitaxian Probe is the worst card ever made. Both are free spells that end up at card parity and you always cast them if you have them in your hand. The difference is Gitaxian Probe at least doesn't require everyone to play 4 of it.
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Nov 21, 2016 04:24
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Rinkles posted:I've seen tormenting voice in some fairly fair decks, but my point was mostly hypothetical. Main advantage over Faithless looting is that it's not card disadvantage. I don't know of any decks outside of Standard that play Tormenting Voice (and standard decks mostly play it because they have very limited selection for hand/graveyard filtering effects), and the decks that play Faithless Looting don't really care about going down a card because they aren't trying to win with that kind of card advantage; they're trying to find combo pieces and fill the graveyard as quickly as possible. For these decks, Looting is the better effect because they want to have more choice over what cards they put in the yard; you don't want to dump two potentially useful cards part of the casting cost and then draw into your Grislebrand. Like, the only non-Dredge deck I've ever seen cast Tormenting Voice in Modern was that goofy Narscet + Omniscience reanimator that ran two copies as Faithless Lootings 5 and 6. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 04:36
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ThePeavstenator posted:Although I think Gitaxian Probe is the worst card in Modern I'm joining mcmagic in his crusade against it. I've been saying this for years. It's the worst card in this game, regardless of format.
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Nov 21, 2016 04:43
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I'm trying to understand why it's so bad. On its face, it's just a look at the hand and a cantrip. Is it because it's "free?"
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Nov 21, 2016 04:49
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Captain Capitalism posted:I'm trying to understand why it's so bad. On its face, it's just a look at the hand and a cantrip. Is it because it's "free?" It's a free cantrip that is used purely as fuel for a variety of degenerate or unfair decks (+1 storm corm count, +1 delve fuel, -2 life for Suicide Zoo, +1 prowess trigger, etc) that also has a side effect of letting the caster know exactly how much interaction they need to play around when they attempt to go off instead of having to worry about things like reading their opponent. It's even more insulting in formats where Cabal Therapy is legal. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Nov 21, 2016 |
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Nov 21, 2016 04:52
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Not a fan of Git Probe either. Wouldn't mind seeing it go. Casualties would happen though since it is used in some interesting / slower combo decks - jeskai ascendency, storm, pyromancer ascension decks. Maybe if something big from dredge gets banned the deck will be killed off and people will stop packing graveyard hate so I can play Haakon Loam again
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Nov 21, 2016 04:52
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Gitprobe being banned would at least give me a chance to use the serum visions I bought way back I guess
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Nov 21, 2016 04:58
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ThePeavstenator posted:Although I think Gitaxian Probe is the worst card in Modern I'm joining mcmagic in his crusade against it. Probe is a weird card in that sometimes it does nothing, and sometimes you'd pay 19 life for that effect, and it doesn't actually cost a card to get access to it for the times where it's great. The real problem is if we want Modern to be a "turn 4 format" as was stated by WotC, you need to ban like ten cards, and if you want it to actually be a reasonable format you need to ban like fifty. Modern is fun, but there's a hell of a lot of absurd turn 2 and 3 wins where no particular card (or set of cards) would be able to stop them all, so it frequently comes down to blowouts against blowouts. If you have a choice between a reasonable deck that can just happen to win on turn 3 versus an equally consistent deck that can't win before turn 4, you're just going to play the faster deck, which speeds up the format as a whole.
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Nov 21, 2016 07:37
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WMC was a team format with unified decklists, right? If so, in what universe does that merit discussing banlists for regular play?
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Nov 21, 2016 07:44
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Just bring back Summer Bloom and I'm ok with whatever other stupid poo poo needs to be in this format.
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Nov 21, 2016 10:15
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Mikujin posted:Just bring back Summer Bloom and I'm ok with whatever other stupid poo poo needs to be in this format. This is the right thing to do, with all the turn 2 and 3 kills happening Summer Bloom won't feel as oppressive. Plus I've got the entire deck ready to play in the binder.
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Nov 21, 2016 10:48
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Todd Anderson won this weekend's classic with his w/r control deck, not all hope is lost. Were there any good black Friday deals for magic goodies last year? I remember inked playmats being on sale and cfb/scg having some boxes of older sets on sale at a decent price but not much else.
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Nov 21, 2016 14:03
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