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Wasn't there a rumour or a hint that Ferrus Manus' head was still goin', despite being totally and decidedly lopped off? I swear I only read it in this thread, but it seemed to me it would actually be fitting if the only way he could come back was as a walking cyborg with his head as the only "human" part left.
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Oct 10, 2013 00:16
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Horus holds a one way conversation with his polished skull in a bad short story.
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Oct 10, 2013 00:30
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Nephilm posted:Horus holds a one way conversation with his polished skull in a bad short story. I haven't actually read the story itself, but I remember someone else's account suggested that the head was still intact. Is that not true? Also re: primarch immortality and the interpretation of Horus's death, my impression is that the primary significance of what the Emperor did to Horus was that it utterly obliterated his soul beyond all recovery. Even if Horus had a bog-standard human soul, rather than being a fragment of the Emperor's soul / a daemon prince bound to a material shell / a little bit of both, it would have still been a strong maneuver in that it denied Horus's soul to the Warp, preventing the Chaos gods from taking it and refashioning Horus if they so wished - whether that would be into an eternally suffering Chaos beast or a daemon prince. It doesn't preclude the other theories I've seen in this thread, but given that the Emperor knows more about Chaos than he ever told his sons and that he had both the opportunity and the power, he probably was focused on making sure Horus was never able to return, which may have resulted in severe overkill compared to what it might take to kill a primarch under "normal" circumstances.
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Oct 10, 2013 00:40
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IIRC Horus was cloned after the Heresy in that magical "clones are the same person" method at some point. I can't remember where I saw that though, so I could be misremembering fanfiction from 15 years ago or something.
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Oct 10, 2013 01:18
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Arquinsiel posted:IIRC Horus was cloned after the Heresy in that magical "clones are the same person" method at some point. I can't remember where I saw that though, so I could be misremembering fanfiction from 15 years ago or something. Fabius Bile made clones of Horus. Abaddon was apparently rather angry and smashed them. This is from one of the older Chaos Space Marines Codex. *EDIT* Did any of the primarchs known inherit the emperors intellect? They are all geniuses in their own right, and Magnus has his thirst for knowledge. But were any of them gifted in making anything beyond melee weapons and designing their own space ships? UberJumper fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 10, 2013 01:22
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Arquinsiel posted:IIRC Horus was cloned after the Heresy in that magical "clones are the same person" method at some point. I can't remember where I saw that though, so I could be misremembering fanfiction from 15 years ago or something. UberJumper posted:Fabius Bile made clones of Horus. Abaddon was apparently rather angry and smashed them. This is from one of the older Chaos Space Marines Codex. Absolutely true. This will actually be covered in the first book of ADB's Black Legion series, the Talon of Horus. I asked him on twitter.
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Oct 10, 2013 01:32
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VanSandman posted:Absolutely true. This will actually be covered in the first book of ADB's Black Legion series, the Talon of Horus. I asked him on twitter. Is there a release date for this? I don't see on BL's website.
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Oct 10, 2013 01:35
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VanSandman posted:Absolutely true. This will actually be covered in the first book of ADB's Black Legion series, the Talon of Horus. I asked him on twitter. First one or first 3? I thought the entry trilogy was about dealing with that UberJumper posted:Is there a release date for this? I don't see on BL's website. approximately April 2014. They follow a pretty standard pattern for releasing their novels, so it should be popping up around then. Possible shifting depending on if the editing stage runs long or they change their marketing strategy.
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Oct 10, 2013 01:43
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Arquinsiel posted:IIRC Horus was cloned after the Heresy in that magical "clones are the same person" method at some point. I can't remember where I saw that though, so I could be misremembering fanfiction from 15 years ago or something. I thought that the story was that they were physical clones that looked like Horus (though apparently the earlier ones were far more deformed and buggy) but were nothing like him and mostly just sucked. Which is actually relatively correct to real life, or at least whatever approximation of it 40k is. I know there was a blurb about Fabius Bile and bad Horus clones in the description of the Black Legion in the codices, though, so you're not just remembering it.
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Oct 10, 2013 01:45
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Eh, whatever. I'm happy that I just kind of remembered it rightish at this point. ADB's interpretation is gospel for me when it turns up anyway.
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Oct 10, 2013 01:48
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UberJumper posted:Fabius Bile made clones of Horus. Abaddon was apparently rather angry and smashed them. This is from one of the older Chaos Space Marines Codex. Well, Guilliman wrote the finest treatise on war ever, Lorgar wrote the foundation of a church that would last 10,000 years, Fulgrim was apparently a painter and sculpter, as were Perturabo and Sanguinius and probably a lot of the others. We only really hear about their war stuff because the books focus mostly on war stuff. Not sure what more you're expecting out of "intellect" though.
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Oct 10, 2013 01:50
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Cream_Filling posted:I thought that the story was that they were physical clones that looked like Horus (though apparently the earlier ones were far more deformed and buggy) but were nothing like him and mostly just sucked. Which is actually relatively correct to real life, or at least whatever approximation of it 40k is. I know there was a blurb about Fabius Bile and bad Horus clones in the description of the Black Legion in the codices, though, so you're not just remembering it. This is what I mostly heard too, that the clones were imperfect and Abaddon smashed it all up mostly out of rage at how Horus's memory was being disrespected. UberJumper posted:*EDIT* Did any of the primarchs known inherit the emperors intellect? They are all geniuses in their own right, and Magnus has his thirst for knowledge. But were any of them gifted in making anything beyond melee weapons and designing their own space ships? I know the Emperor sets a high bar as far as "intellect" goes (despite his being a lovely father, he still executed his other poo poo pretty impressively), but I would characterize "designed a space ship" as a pretty genius thing beyond conventional warfare. The Phalanx has got to be an engineering marvel in and of itself.
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Oct 10, 2013 01:58
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So does anyone know why its impossible to find a copy of the third guants ghosts omnibus right now?>
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Oct 10, 2013 02:05
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UberJumper posted:Fabius Bile made clones of Horus. Abaddon was apparently rather angry and smashed them. This is from one of the older Chaos Space Marines Codex. Perturabo was an inventor, shoe horned into being a general (much like how Lorgar was an orator who was forced to be a general, and Kruze was a judge who was forced to be a general etc etc etc). Angel Exterminatus has a very brief description of his private quarters, and he is basically reinventing things lost to the DAoT on his own. And instead of being allowed a peaceful life where he can invent to his hearts content and receive praise as his inventions make things better for everyone, he gets sent off to deal with the sieges and military problems that no one else is smart enough to figure out, and gets credit yanked away when his brothers take over the final push after he did the hard work and bleeding to make it so the others could win. He's still a bitter little pissant, but he is an understandable bitter little pissant.
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Oct 10, 2013 02:22
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Fried Chicken posted:First one or first 3? I thought the entry trilogy was about dealing with that I'm pretty sure we're getting more than three books. Isn't it going to be his 'Gaunt's Ghosts'?
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Oct 10, 2013 02:23
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Kegslayer posted:I'm pretty sure we're getting more than three books. Isn't it going to be his 'Gaunt's Ghosts'? Yeah, but like Ghosts, each arc is a trilogy. So he is confirmed for 3 Black Legion books at least at this time, but is plotting for many many more
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Oct 10, 2013 02:32
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Cream_Filling posted:Well, Guilliman wrote the finest treatise on war ever, Lorgar wrote the foundation of a church that would last 10,000 years, Fulgrim was apparently a painter and sculpter, as were Perturabo and Sanguinius and probably a lot of the others. We only really hear about their war stuff because the books focus mostly on war stuff. Not sure what more you're expecting out of "intellect" though. Pyrolocutus posted:I know the Emperor sets a high bar as far as "intellect" goes (despite his being a lovely father, he still executed his other poo poo pretty impressively), but I would characterize "designed a space ship" as a pretty genius thing beyond conventional warfare. The Phalanx has got to be an engineering marvel in and of itself. Sorry, i should have phrased that better. All the primarchs seem to have their own specific trait derived from the emperor. However none of them seem to have inherited his skill with technology. While Ferrus seemed to be pretty close with the mechanicum, i didn't really see him as the emperors skill with technology aspect. *EDIT* Fried Chicken posted:Perturabo was an inventor, shoe horned into being a general (much like how Lorgar was an orator who was forced to be a general, and Kruze was a judge who was forced to be a general etc etc etc). Angel Exterminatus has a very brief description of his private quarters, and he is basically reinventing things lost to the DAoT on his own. And instead of being allowed a peaceful life where he can invent to his hearts content and receive praise as his inventions make things better for everyone, he gets sent off to deal with the sieges and military problems that no one else is smart enough to figure out, and gets credit yanked away when his brothers take over the final push after he did the hard work and bleeding to make it so the others could win. I should really read Angel Exterminatus. Thanks.
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Oct 10, 2013 02:40
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Arquinsiel posted:He's talking at this point in the published Heresy novels I think. UberJumper posted:Sorry, i should have phrased that better. All the primarchs seem to have their own specific trait derived from the emperor. However none of them seem to have inherited his skill with technology. While Ferrus seemed to be pretty close with the mechanicum, i didn't really see him as the emperors skill with technology aspect.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:38
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PrBacterio posted:Isn't Curze already dead at this point in there though? Curze dies a bit after the heresy, according to Night Lords Trilogy. The emperor at several points, is shown to be doing some pretty impressive skills in technology. In Mechanicum he rides in on his flagship that dwarfs everything else, and its somewhat implied that the technology said ship has is beyond what Mars has. Then there is the Golden Throne, the Webway portal, etc. The emperor is perfect in every regard, with the exception of being a good parent.
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Oct 10, 2013 04:07
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UberJumper posted:Curze dies a bit after the heresy, according to Night Lords Trilogy. UberJumper posted:The emperor at several points, is shown to be doing some pretty impressive skills in technology. In Mechanicum he rides in on his flagship that dwarfs everything else, and its somewhat implied that the technology said ship has is beyond what Mars has. Then there is the Golden Throne, the Webway portal, etc. I didn't know about that flagship, or that it had technology beyond Mars' capabilities; that would explain why the Mechanicum were ready to agree to ally with him, that's always been something that gave me pause, because after the Long Dark Night or what it's called wasn't Mars pretty much the most powerful human faction left over so what would they get out of that alliance? It always seemed to me that, after he had unified Terra, without the alliance with the Mechanicum, he would've been pretty much hosed at that point.
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Oct 10, 2013 04:26
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PrBacterio posted:Ahh, that's where I had heard of that Curze's death had already been written, but so it's apparently not part of the HH series then. Somehow I had got the impression that it was. Kurze's death is written down in one of ADB's Night Lords short stories. It's also an audio drama, one of those actually worth listening to. The effects and things they add really assist with visualizing the action.
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Oct 10, 2013 04:36
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PrBacterio posted:I thought it was somewhat heavily implied that he didn't actually invent the Golden Throne etc but just found it lying around somewhere and was just trying to get it working again? I might be totally off on this though, I just seem to remember having read something along those lines somewhere. In Mechanicum the emperor shows up, everyone basically bows except for a Paladin, who cannot bow due to him having an unrepairable leg. The emperor just touches it, and it is instantly fixed. From that point on it seems everyone believes that he is the physical manifestation of their machine god/omnissiah.
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Oct 10, 2013 04:40
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I wonder why the Emperor didn't give him a new flesh leg. Such powers exist in the RPGs. Oh wait, the tech-priest hate flesh.
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Oct 10, 2013 05:45
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So, is Mechanicum worth reading? It's listed under the same heading as the Outcast Dead in the OP, which I just finished reading but now kind of regret because it was so bad  (I've run out of ADB and Dan Abnett HH novels to read, unfortunately).
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Oct 10, 2013 05:53
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It wasn't the actual person the Emperor healed, but the machine the Paladin was riding in (some kind of two-legged mech if I recall?), saying something like "MACHINE, HEAL THYSELF!" Been a long time since i read it though, so might be wrong. In regards to the Golden Throne etc., it's heavily implied in many different sources that the Emperor did not create the tech as much as find it after the Dark Age of Technology. edit: Mechanicum is quite "meh", not sure it's worth the read unless you're really desperate.
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Oct 10, 2013 05:55
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Aries posted:In regards to the Golden Throne etc., it's heavily implied in many different sources that the Emperor did not create the tech as much as find it after the Dark Age of Technology. EDIT: Well, except for the help with the Primarchs he (ostensibly) received from the Warp gods, that is. PrBacterio fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 10, 2013 06:09
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Paladins are the guys in the middle here. IE: small titans.
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Oct 10, 2013 06:52
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For scale that's roughly the size of a 40k space marine in a game where infantry were about 6mm high. Or in modern terms, about the size of the Eldar Wraithknight kit. I wouldn't be too surprised if we see a knight with the next IG codex.
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Oct 10, 2013 07:57
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Aries posted:
See, this is where I get a little lost. I know, weird continuity in 40k? If the Emporer has been around as literally "god in the background" for at least 39,000 years - how is it that he is discovering dark age technology? Wouldn't he have been around when man was discovering all this awesome poo poo and building STCs everywhere? Was he sat playing with his chemistry set while the Iron Men rose up and went Skynet on the galaxy? Admittedly the source is muddled in Mechanicum as it's a vision that is being remembered by a being that has been imprisoned in the dark with no sensory input for millenia and literally says "sometimes it plays differently", but the Emperor is someone who at some point during our middle ages aparently captures a void dragon and somehow imprisons it on Mars to later inspire the Martians to incredible feats of science and tech , but he finds the Golden Throne in the centre of terra and thinks "whooooaaa, That's some COOL poo poo - how did my fellow men make THIS without me knowing?!". Unless the throne was soemthing from the older races. Afterall, it links to the Eldar webway?
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Oct 10, 2013 13:39
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Indeed; it's mainly due to different authors attributing vastly different powers to the Emperor across the history of 40k. The Dark Age of Tech and the Terminator-esque scenario that's often alluded to make little sense in lieu of the current Emperor we read about, because it simply doesn't make sense that this all-powerful, all-seeing being would allow such events to occur.
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Oct 10, 2013 13:54
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UberJumper posted:Did any of the primarchs known inherit the emperors intellect? They are all geniuses in their own right, and Magnus has his thirst for knowledge. But were any of them gifted in making anything beyond melee weapons and designing their own space ships? All of the Primarchs will far surpass anyone at anything - it's only when compared to their own brothers or their father that they have failings (or down to lovely writing). Corax is the Splinter Cell dude of the Primarchs known for stealth and ambush and grew up in a prison, but in Deliverence Lost he turns his hand towards genetic engineering and is able to crack something that the best geneticist minds in the imperium were unable to grasp. He also sits and figures out the labrynth mechanisms and how to beat it in his head (something you would expect from Perturabo). In fact, Perturabo himself suprises Fulgrim by speaking the Eldar language and points out that he is always amazed that they forget he has the same gene-enhanced super brain as all of them. Alpharius is the runt of the litter who would get his rear end handed to him by Russ in a brawl and has to tread carefully around Horus, but he's still a warrior who can kick the rear end of all but 18 beings in the known galaxy 19 if you include Omegon (which is what makes Guilliman's thoughts in Know No Fear so bad-rear end. "Not even close to all seventeen"). I'd imagine the same goes for their intellect. If it wasn't for the constant slog of war and conquest, every primarch would be a genius thinker, inventor, politician, philosopher, artist, etc. Just because Lorgar can't beat Magnus at regicide doesn't mean he couldn't beat a room of 1000 enhanced human regicide masters at once while planning his schedule for setting up a planetary scale government and humming a jaunty tune he just composed. But thanks to his dead beat dad and messed up childhood, he uses his technical prowess to make a REEEEALLY big hammer. Dog_Meat fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 10, 2013 14:03
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PrBacterio posted:So, is Mechanicum worth reading? It's listed under the same heading as the Outcast Dead in the OP, which I just finished reading but now kind of regret because it was so bad I quite liked it. I was reluctant to read it as I've never been interested in the 40k universe outside of the primarchs and marines, but I think it gives a good insight into why the galaxy is so screwed in 40k. You see glimmers of hope in the 30k world and then see the scale of the damage the heresy does.
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Oct 10, 2013 14:13
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I agree that Mechanicum is worth a read. It helps if you've read the Kaban Project first. It gives some great insight into how Mars works and how the Mechanicum functions, and it finally raises that old question: If the Emperor denied his divinity, why'd he set himself up as the Omnissiah?
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Oct 10, 2013 14:21
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VanSandman posted:I agree that Mechanicum is worth a read. It helps if you've read the Kaban Project first. It gives some great insight into how Mars works and how the Mechanicum functions, and it finally raises that old question: If the Emperor denied his divinity, why'd he set himself up as the Omnissiah? Probably because it was the only way to get the unwavering loyalty of the Mechanicum without a war. The mechanicum seemed pretty key to the emperors plan. Once the emperor finished his webway project i imagine the usefulness of the mechanicum would have been limited.
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Oct 10, 2013 17:53
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VanSandman posted:I agree that Mechanicum is worth a read. It helps if you've read the Kaban Project first. It gives some great insight into how Mars works and how the Mechanicum functions, and it finally raises that old question: If the Emperor denied his divinity, why'd he set himself up as the Omnissiah? Well, in real life theology, the messiah isn't supposed to be divine, but rather is a worldly king chosen by god (or, more literally, anointed) to unite the tribes of Israel and usher in a new Messianic Age of unity, world peace, etc. quote:And if a king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and occupied with commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen breaches in its observance, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the anointed one. If he succeeded and built the Holy Temple in its proper place and gathered the dispersed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the anointed one for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: "For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, so that they will all proclaim the Name of the Lord, and to worship Him with a united resolve ." OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 10, 2013 18:08
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Reading Helsreach, I started thinking about how the Imperial Guard is staffed. From the various books I've read it seems most similar to early nineteenth century armies, with the peasantry or lowborn forming the base, while commanded by upper class or highborn individuals. Is this universal in the IG, or do the various regiments have some autonomy in creating their chain of command? What are the prospects of an average guardsman, pressed into duty. If he somehow survives and shows promise, can they be elevated to command, or is that rather unheard of?
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Oct 10, 2013 18:13
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Deofuta posted:Reading Helsreach, I started thinking about how the Imperial Guard is staffed. From the various books I've read it seems most similar to early nineteenth century armies, with the peasantry or lowborn forming the base, while commanded by upper class or highborn individuals. Is this universal in the IG, or do the various regiments have some autonomy in creating their chain of command? What are the prospects of an average guardsman, pressed into duty. If he somehow survives and shows promise, can they be elevated to command, or is that rather unheard of? According to stuff like the FFG RPGs (which are sort of accepted), each regiment is highly autonomous and internally can set things up however they feel. Also, by most indications in the codices and such, more modern-styled armies like the Cadians don't seem to have much of a formal nobility and seem pretty meritocratic. In part, I'd say the 19th century thing is due to 40k's gothic themes and setting, which is all about being backwards and oppressive, and also due to aesthetics from their cool uniforms. Plus, the origins of the actual 40k game is Warhammer, the rules of which are derived chiefly from rules for Napoleonic wargames, which in general were historically one of the most popular types of wargames going back to the beginnings of the hobby and probably a lot of the original people at GW started out playing with Napoleonic-era stuff and were in general giant groggy English history nerds. Even in 19th century armies of Britain, it wasn't impossible for someone to "come up from the ranks" and be awarded an officer's commission due to surviving some example of insane bravery - for instance, by leading a forlorn hope (a suicide squad that volunteers to be first into the breach in the walls when ending a siege), capturing an enemy's colors, etc. Also the armies of Napoleon were relatively meritocratic (since much of the nobility had been killed off in the revolution anyway) and several of his marshals actually started out as dog soldiers.
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Oct 10, 2013 18:26
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IG regiments are usually raised as part of a tithe to the Imperium. Most, if not all, IG officers are the upper-class of whatever world providing the regiment. As for promotion to an officer rank, when your standard trooper's lifespan is 15 minutes, you don't have much hope for moving up the chain. Stuff like chain of command and regimental setup is pretty cut and dried, as regimental makeup is clearly defined in the Imperial bureaucracy. This pretty much mirrors the military now (at least in the US) - most of your rank and file joins up to get out of whatever rut they're in and the officer corps is made up of those privileged enough to have a college degree. It's pretty uncommon, though not unheard of, for enlisted troops to become officers, but you usually have to earn a degree then go to OCS first. I suppose an IG regiment could operate the same way. There are certain concessions given to regiments based on their particular backgrounds - for instance, if Necromundan gangs tend to fight in groups of eight, the IG might allow squad sizes of eight troops, rather than ten. It helps to ease transition if you're allowed to retain some semblance of your previous life. EDIT: I haven't read the RPG stuff, so things may be different. In the stories I've read, IG regiments tend to lean towards nobility being the officer class, and troopers being troopers for life. But, there are a billion regiments out there, so whatever you feel like the best answer is, you can probably be assured one of them works that way. berzerkmonkey fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 10, 2013 18:27
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Cream_Filling posted:Even in 19th century armies of Britain, it wasn't impossible for someone to "come up from the ranks" and be awarded an officer's commission due to surviving some example of insane bravery - for instance, by leading a forlorn hope (a suicide squad that volunteers to be first into the breach in the walls when ending a siege), capturing an enemy's colors, etc. Also the armies of Napoleon were relatively meritocratic (since much of the nobility had been killed off in the revolution anyway) and several of his marshals actually started out as dog soldiers. The British system is the one I was thinking of when I wrote the above. While soldiers were known to be promoted up the ranks, it was also widely held that said officers were also prone to be singled out as being lesser officers for it, looked down upon by both the other officers and the soldiers themselves. I really do enjoy the parallels, being a bit of a Napoleonic history fan myself. Does the Imperial Guard not have a codifier text similar to the Codex Astartes? If each regiment were truly autonomous I can only imagine the organizational fallout from trying to piece together a large crusade/invasion. berzerkmonkey posted:
I think there is a bigger difference between officers and enlisted than education, at least in the military structure. Interestingly enough, it seems like the commissariat has the most vertical mobility, as it seems to take students of any background if I recall correctly. The IG itself seems to focus much more on planetary nobility.
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Oct 10, 2013 18:35
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Deofuta posted:The British system is the one I was thinking of when I wrote the above. While soldiers were known to be promoted up the ranks, it was also widely held that said officers were also prone to be singled out as being lesser officers for it, looked down upon by both the other officers and the soldiers themselves. I really do enjoy the parallels, being a bit of a Napoleonic history fan myself. The Commissariat only takes orphans from the Schola Progenium.
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Oct 10, 2013 18:36
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