|
Inalienable doesn't mean what they think it means. Human rights is more problematic, but still doesn't matter, because the universal translator would convey the meaning of a term created before first contact. It's gotcha bullshit because it was inserted into the mouth of one character just so that another could jump on it.
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 07:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 15:48 |
|
|
Vagabundo posted:The only real duff note that TUC hits is probably the slow clap at the end. I hate it hate it hate it. Love the rest of the film, though. The mindrape scene is a bit hosed up, too.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 07:09
|
|
|
The Dark One posted:Inalienable doesn't mean what they think it means. Human rights is more problematic, but still doesn't matter, because the universal translator would convey the meaning of a term created before first contact. I suppose it is an inevitable artifact of the shooting cast and such, and is clearly where Babylon 5 made its bones by striking a contrast, but I did not ever really get the vibe that the Federation was necessarily humanocentric. If they extended it to saying the Federation was a tool to advance the interests of the four founder races I could buy that more easily, but I mean, poo poo: your most famous character for the entire franchise is an alien, even if he has human aspects whenever it's convenient.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 07:24
|
|
|
I actually kind of looked forward to the Ferengi DS9 episodes. If I recall I only really hated the Profit and Lace, the obvious one. The Area 51 episode is probably one of my favorite comedic, light hearted episode of any Star Trek I've seen. I definitely have to back up The Muse as being a candidate for worst episode though. Not much redeeming about it, weak plot/performances and stuff that borders on the creepy in a bad way. Yuck. Don't think I'll ever sit through that one on a rewatch.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 07:46
|
|
|
Why do you all hate Profit and Lace? It's not that terrible and I thought it was funny.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 07:55
|
|
|
After watching Take Me Out To The Holo-Suite, all I can say about baseball is gently caress BASEBALL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cLOBHEON20 But then again, I'm sure most of you uncultured swine would be the same if the episode was about true gentlemen's sports like cricket or rugby union.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 08:12
|
|
|
Are there any good holodeck episodes? Any episode that was improved with them being in? The only one I can think of is when Geordie got turned into an Albino invisilizard. Going back to Brooks chat, this is my ringtone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lHgbbM9pu4
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 08:31
|
|
|
Jeez, are you really all jumping all over Undiscovered Country because of the "Inalienable Human Rights," thing? Of COURSE it was annoying GOTCHA political bullshit. You've all seen literally any episode of Star Trek involving Klingons before that movie right? GOTCHAing the Federation and its purported ideals is what Klingons do. It's what all the non-Federation powers do. The Klingons, Romulans and later the Cardassians and Bajorans fundamentally view the Federation with suspicion and distrust because they themselves are so flawed. That's why they're effective foils. The Federation has expanded in every direction in the alpha quadrant and "engulfed," dozens if not hundreds of sentient species and fertile worlds in the process. And they did it all under the banner of peaceful co-existence, a disdain for battle so intense their own highest military leaders behind entirely closed doors still refer to themselves as explorers and scientists, and a sanctimonious smile. The Klingon Empire expands by conquest. Conquest is all they understand and all they've EVER understood. Any alien races in their empire are subjects, not partners. Are you really surprised they're not taking the Federation's words at face value? Put yourself in a Klingon's shoes. There is a rival empire on the borders of your space. Their military is potent and vast. But all they ever want to do is "negotiate treaties," with you. Just like all those other species around their borders they started off negotiating treaties with. Who are now on sitting on their Federation Council. If you were a Klingon, how would you see that? You'd see it as conquest through cultural assimilation, something so indirect and removed from the glories of proper military expansion and good old feudal warfare politics that it's practically Romulan. Think about Star Trek 3, when the Klingon Officer is impressed that the Federation has developed a device that can create planets, and all the captain can do is sarcastically describe the white picket fence dream of the typical human before capping it off my mentioning the flag of the Federation fluttering in the breeze. The implication is obvious: all he sees is yet another Federation ruse, a plot to bring the galaxy that much further under their thumb with double-talk and obviously false promises. When you believe that literally everything your opponent says or does is a lie, of course you're going to take apart every single word they say. That's how rational beings react when they think they're being lied to, they look for the chink that will reveal the ruse. The only difference between the Klingons and the Romulans or Cardassians is that they're too bluntly honest to hide their feelings about their perception of the "grand farce" the Federation puts up as their culture. In fact, the Klingons, and those dinner guests in Undiscovered Country in particular, act exactly like the Bajorans do through most of early DS9, and exactly how Kai Winn continues to act through the whole show: believing the Federation's schtick to be Cardassian colonial imperialism in a thin veil. When that's your mindset and you hear the humans talking about human rights, of course you're going to roll your eyes because you'll be thinking "man, they can't even bother to hide their desire to extinguish our culture and replace it with their own."
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 08:45
|
|
|
Has anyone ever made a full comparison analysis between "Equinox" and BSG's "Pegasus"? They've got a lot of similarities.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 08:46
|
|
|
cheerfullydrab posted:Has anyone ever made a full comparison analysis between "Equinox" and BSG's "Pegasus"? They've got a lot of similarities. Chakotay did not get to wear a fat suit.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 08:49
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:Jeez, are you really all jumping all over Undiscovered Country because of the "Inalienable Human Rights," thing? Of COURSE it was annoying GOTCHA political bullshit. You've all seen literally any episode of Star Trek involving Klingons before that movie right? GOTCHAing the Federation and its purported ideals is what Klingons do. It's what all the non-Federation powers do. The Klingons, Romulans and later the Cardassians and Bajorans fundamentally view the Federation with suspicion and distrust because they themselves are so flawed. That's why they're effective foils.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 09:02
|
|
|
Nessus posted:Well it's still an excellent movie, this just seems like a cheesy way to express the otherwise-excellent point. (I have not watched it in years, clearly I should fix that.) Certainly the Klingons should be suspicious of their old foe and disdainful of their espoused ideology, but having the scene turn on that particular phrasing is a bit groan-worthy in retrospect, it's like the "Hello, I am Data and I do not understand your basic hu-mon expressions despite correctly using idiomatic speech on a regular basis and having successfully completed a comprehensive training program" canard, except it's a Klingon instead of Data. I can agree that scoffing at "inalienable," in the way that it was done was kind of stupid because alien doesn't necessarily mean anything like "space men," but I think taking a shot at the phrase "human rights," was pretty justified in the context. It's pretty clear in most Trek media that Klingons see Humans as the "rulers," of the Federation. I don't think the Ambassador's note about the Vulcans being "intellectual puppets," in Voyage Home was just political gamesmanship, I think they really think anyone not a human in the Federation, even another founding race, is just a pawn not unlike it would be in the Klingon Empire. So when you combine that belief with the main perceived issue with the Federation I mentioned earlier, that their prefered method of expansion is cultural conquest, and that overall goal is to cleanse potential members of their identity and replace it with the Federation's ideals out of a belief that the Federation's way of doing things is perfect and correct, hearing a human talking about how important and vital "human," rights are is going to grind your gears. Not because they're rights for humans, but because the idea that the rights humans think are most important and should never be abridged are the only ones that matter, and that those rights are something "we can all agree on." As a concrete example: episodes have show that to a Klingon, revenge against the guy who killed your mate is a right. Suicide to preserve your family honor is an right. And when Picard and Sisko saw Worf practicing those rights? He was chastised, disdained, and even threatened with criminal charges. Inalienable Klingon Rights and Inalienable Human Rights aren't the same thing, so Chekov's assertion was an insult, even if it was unintended.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 09:17
|
|
|
I will never watch The Visitor again. It makes me think of my father and I tend to get emotionally overwhelmed when I think about certain things so I end up crying.
|
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 09:29
|
|
|
I more or less agree with you on how other races view the federation, but I don't see what that has to do with "inalienable human rights" being an eyerollingly stupid thing to put in the movie. The Klingons, and most every other race manage to be interesting foils without resorting to a 500 year old lazy translation. This would be an incredibly dumb scene even if it was the Romulans or Carassians or some race that actually cares about technicalities and the preciseness of language, but this is the loving Klingons, who are supposed to be all about honor and deeds above words and poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 09:37
|
|
|
counterfeitsaint posted:I more or less agree with you on how other races view the federation, but I don't see what that has to do with "inalienable human rights" being an eyerollingly stupid thing to put in the movie. The Klingons, and most every other race manage to be interesting foils without resorting to a 500 year old lazy translation. This would be an incredibly dumb scene even if it was the Romulans or Carassians or some race that actually cares about technicalities and the preciseness of language, but this is the loving Klingons, who are supposed to be all about honor and deeds above words and poo poo. Well for one thing, these aren't the typical Klingons who were making the point, they were the political elite, the movers and shakers who recognize that words do matter. Martok and Gowron certainly weren't above things like wordplay and political games. As far as the rest, like I said, in the end it comes down to the simple fact that "human rights," may not be the same thing as Klingon Rights. Humans have a history of being openly hostile to certain beliefs that Klingons hold as sacred as the right to life or freedom of thought. Saying "We can all agree that everyone should have their basic human rights," is an implicit dismissal of rights that Klingons might insist belong on that list but know that humans won't brook being in the old Federation charter. Like the right to gut your own brother like a fish because he asked you. Worf almost got thrown out of Starfleet and into prison for that one.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 09:49
|
|
|
Yolocaust Denier posted:Are there any good holodeck episodes? Any episode that was improved with them being in? The only one I can think of is when Geordie got turned into an Albino invisilizard. It's Only a Paper Moon?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 11:04
|
|
|
Gau posted:Ugh, I loving loathe "The Muse." It's a Jake episode with a bad plot and a Lwaxana/Odo B-plot that is somehow better than the A-plot, but not by much. I have never thought of DS9 in this way, and will have to do research and recritique DS9. My opinions may not change, but I hope they'll expand. oh em gee bee ess posted:I will never watch The Visitor again. It makes me think of my father and I tend to get emotionally overwhelmed when I think about certain things so I end up crying. My father is still with me, but I have great difficulty watching that episode. Unfortunately, the best way I can explain it to people is to invoke "Jurassic Bark". They both tugged on my heartstrings of loss, but for different reasons. Am I a bad person for thinking that the dinner scene in ST:TUC was a great way to show the contrasts between two very dissimilar cultures. I can't fault Azetbur for calling out the Feds for their "Earth-centric" approach in diplomacy. It's a major diplomatic dinner between two intergalactic powers, one of which represents tens if not hundreds of races, but it boiled down to all humans (plus 1 half-vulcan) entertaining the homogenous klingons. EU be damned, it's a dramatic point that needed to be made in the movie.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 11:11
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:Well for one thing, these aren't the typical Klingons who were making the point, they were the political elite, the movers and shakers who recognize that words do matter. Martok and Gowron certainly weren't above things like wordplay and political games. Since I've never seen all the TOS, and tend to think of The Federation from a TNG perspective, it doesn't seem like the Federation is all about pushing human rights and culture all over every one at all. They seem to respect all sorts of outlandish 'rights' of various other powers, Klingons included. The Federation doesn't object or say anything about Klingon honor murder, or Carassian interogation techniques, or Ferengi, well, anything. I always thought the Federation seemed 90% human just due to budget constraints, but who knows, maybe really were supposed to dominate it. They don't really get into cultures after they have joined the Federation much, but there was no indication Bajor was giving up much when they were joining. Having just watched the movie again (I've been jonesing for a TOS Movie anyways), it really feels like Chekov said something inconsistent just so the writers could have the Klingons to take offense. The example of Worf is bad though. Klingons continue to exercise their 'Klingon rights' and continue to kill each other right and left over honor in the Klingon Empire, without a peep from their Federation allies. Worf, however, was a federation citizen inside federation territory*, and serving in the god drat federation (non)military. So no, he doesn't get to do things that are illegal in the federation just because he's a Klingon. No more than an expat from Yemen living in America gets to honor kill his cheating wife just because of his 'Yemenis rights'. *You can argue that DS9 was a Bajoran station, but it's a safe bet that Bajor has a 'no murdering your brother' law on the books somewhere too. That doesn't sound like a thing the prophets would be cool with. kelvron posted:My father is still with me, but I have great difficulty watching that episode. Unfortunately, the best way I can explain it to people is to invoke "Jurassic Bark". They both tugged on my heartstrings of loss, but for different reasons. I always thought The Visitor was a good episode, but it never bothered me that much until my own Dad almost died and I had to seriously think about what life might be like without him. Now I absolutely refuse to watch it, I know it would kill me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 12:22
|
|
|
counterfeitsaint posted:Since I've never seen all the TOS, and tend to think of The Federation from a TNG perspective, it doesn't seem like the Federation is all about pushing human rights and culture all over every one at all. They seem to respect all sorts of outlandish 'rights' of various other powers, Klingons included. The Federation doesn't object or say anything about Klingon honor murder, or Carassian interogation techniques, or Ferengi, well, anything. I always thought the Federation seemed 90% human just due to budget constraints, but who knows, maybe really were supposed to dominate it. They don't really get into cultures after they have joined the Federation much, but there was no indication Bajor was giving up much when they were joining. Having just watched the movie again (I've been jonesing for a TOS Movie anyways), it really feels like Chekov said something inconsistent just so the writers could have the Klingons to take offense. Yes, but you're arguing objective reality. The point I made in my first post is that what matters is perception. The Worf examples were pointing out that Humans react with extreme negativity to these Klingon traditions. When Worf killed Duras, even though it was the best possible thing for everyone involved by almost any measure, and completely legal, he was still brutally chastised by Picard on a pretty darn personal level and given a formal reprimand for little reason beyond Picard's revulsion for the action. You're right that Worf is not necessarily allowed to invoke Klingon rights as a Federation citizen in Federation territory, but the way the humans are acting at the notion of these things sends a message. The episode where Worf was paralyzed is another good example. The way some of his friends treated his cultural views on the situation was pretty darn repugnant. You have a point about Federation worlds not necessarily changing much for joining. I didn't necessarily want to imply that they actually were changing or giving up their heritage in objective reality, I was making a point about perception. Major Kira and many other Bajoran characters feared what would happen to them, their beliefs, their entire way of life if they joined the Federation, and looking at how little the Vulcans or Betazeds had changed from the situation didn't alleviate those fears. It's a natural fear to have when you hear the Federation's rhetoric and start asking what the catch is. And frankly, the Federation is remarkably lacking in awareness in terms of how their message of peace might be received. They're way too in love with talking about their evolved sensibilities and the utopia they've built for themselves. There's a drat good reason that Eddington on behalf of the Maquis compared the Federation Council and it's desire to see the likes of the Cardassians as members to the Borg. And that reason is 100% about the perception of a suspicious outsider to promises of milk and honey. So, you're a Klingon. You know the following: 1) Humans are hostile to at least some beliefs you believe are fundamental to everything your culture stands for 2) The Federation expands by bringing formerly independent worlds with their own distinct cultures into a homogenous fold and 3) The Federation's members constantly talk about how great the Federation's ideals are, how wonderful a place the Federation is, and how one day they hope everyone can be part of their big happy family of enlightened perfect people. All of these points SEEM to be based in fact, but are actually based on the perception of fact much moreso. This lead you as a Klingon to the perception that the Federation, and by nature of visibility Humans, want to make everybody as much like them as possible and/or subservient to their way of life. It's not a completely fair perception, but it's not a completely unreasonable one either. So when you hear a human start talking about human rights, I don't think it's weird to be offended by it. And I think the point of using that particular phrase was not just to have the Klingons have an excuse to be offended, but the underline that question of perception. I mean, really the entire movie's plot was about perception. "They helped us assassinate their own Chancelor, how trustworthy can they be?" and all that jazz. Human Rights is a phrase we don't think about very much because we understand what we mean by it, so its strange to think that it could be offensive to anyone. Which makes it perfect to be something that can justifiably be seen as offensive because of a perception related disagreement.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 12:54
|
|
|
Gau posted:I was thinking, and one of the reasons that DS9 is great is that it's a Western in Space - but not in an obvious, obtuse way like Firefly. Colonel Sisko, who fought in the Last War and has come out West to be the Mayor of this frontier fort of misfits. There's a Sheriff, a Doctor, a Native, an amiable tinker, a local barkeep, and a colorful background cast. A great number of the plots in DS9 are, in fact, Western plots, or are reflected from a Western film perspective. That's a very good reading, and I think it explains why DS9 is often the closest to TOS out of any of the successor series--and why it is also the most different, because it shows the other side of Westerns, the part where people drift in and out of town and the way that people who just want to settle down and chill the hell out get caught up in events beyond their control. Vagabundo posted:After watching Take Me Out To The Holo-Suite, all I can say about baseball is gently caress BASEBALL. I know I watch at least as much rugby union as you do, but baseball is a game of games and you may not slander it here in our Star Tracks thread. Besides, in cricket you can just hit the ball any which way and all the running is along one line back and forth and the scores are ludicrously high. I mean even in basketball a guy only scored 100 in a single game ONCE.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 12:59
|
|
|
Patrick Stewart probably played cricket, I think that settles everything here. Regarding the DS9 western, were there moon faced shapeshifters in the old west? When Odo was with Kira, did he ejaculate or do you reckon he couldnt be bothered?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 13:40
|
|
|
Yolocaust Denier posted:When Odo was with Kira, did he ejaculate or do you reckon he couldnt be bothered? In one episode, we see Odo transform into a cloud of mist that fills the whole Promenade, and the changelings repeatedly talk about how it's "fun" to morph into difficult / interesting shapes, so I'd guess that yes, he probably morphed a fake little sperm cloud from his fake pee-pee.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 14:30
|
|
|
Yolocaust Denier posted:Patrick Stewart probably played cricket, I think that settles everything here. Chicken Gumbo
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 14:34
|
|
|
Vagabundo posted:The only real duff note that TUC hits is probably the slow clap at the end. I hate it hate it hate it. Love the rest of the film, though. This is the moment of the film when my brain goes NOOOOOOOOOOOO because it's almost a flawless movie in my mind otherwise. "According to our ship's databanks, this ship fired those torpedoes. If we did, the killers are here. If we did not, whoever altered the databanks is here. In either case, what we are looking for, is here." First, I can't figure out why he connects firing the torpedoes directly with the people that killed Gorkon. All he can know for certain is that the person who fired the torpedoes or altered the databanks is on the Enterprise. We learn/assume that Veleris did the altering. The assassins could at least have been Klingons or someone else on the invisible ship. Once they find the blood on the transport pad it's obvious, but his assertion on the bridge simply isn't true.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 14:48
|
|
|
It's because at that point, as far as Spock knew, there were only 2 ships there, Kronos-One and the Enterprise.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 14:56
|
|
|
elcapjtk posted:It's because at that point, as far as Spock knew, there were only 2 ships there, Kronos-One and the Enterprise. Yes, but if that's the case, then the killers came from the Enterprise whether or not the Enterprise fired torpedoes. It's not an Or statement.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 14:58
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I remember This Side of Paradise and Spectre of the Gun - what else was shot on Western sets? Arena, if the Vasquez Rocks count
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 17:28
|
|
|
rypakal posted:Yes, but if that's the case, then the killers came from the Enterprise whether or not the Enterprise fired torpedoes. It's not an Or statement. e: Never mind I'm tired and can't think like Spock right now.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 17:32
|
|
|
rypakal posted:Yes, but if that's the case, then the killers came from the Enterprise whether or not the Enterprise fired torpedoes. It's not an Or statement. Not necessarily, the killers could've been onboard the other ship before it left Klingon space
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 17:36
|
|
|
DS9 has the only good holodeck episodes. Paper Moon and Badda-Bing Badda-Bang. I guess you could include Take Me Out To The Holosuite Also as far as Brooks' acting - it was distracting for the first season, but he reins it in as time goes on and isn't as bad of an overactor.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 17:41
|
|
|
Phy posted:Arena, if the Vasquez Rocks count They don't. It's an outdoor location, not a set; plus, outdoor shooting costs a bundle, so it's not like they were saving money with it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 17:52
|
|
|
The two Siskos (bald/hairy) are just so different, I find it difficult to reconcile them as the same man. Hairy Sisko is all "HOO! Jake-o, can't you feel it in your bones?" while singing in a falsetto and jumping hopscotch, but Bald Sisko is the scariest Starfleet officer of all time, virus-bombing planets and speaking in a gravelly deep voice at all times.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 17:54
|
|
|
DS9 supremacy, folks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZlBETlT1yo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAIwqjN-0uw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TREQGl54BU8
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 17:58
|
|
|
A friend of mine came across this in a old cabinet he was cleaning out at his work:
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 18:07
|
|
|
rypakal posted:This is the moment of the film when my brain goes NOOOOOOOOOOOO because it's almost a flawless movie in my mind otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 18:13
|
|
|
Hyperriker posted:Not necessarily, the killers could've been onboard the other ship before it left Klingon space Slamhound posted:"The killers" in this instance can more broadly refer to "the conspirators" rather than just "the triggermen." Right, that's actually how I take the line. Makes even less of a requirement for the boots to be on the Enterprise
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 18:16
|
|
|
This Name was Planned posted:A friend of mine came across this in a old cabinet he was cleaning out at his work: Man. If DS9 had been on, they'd have been better served printing up the Rules of Acquisition, I think. 1) "When no appropriate rule applies, make one up!" 2) "Hear all, trust nothing." 3) "Peace is good for business." 4) "The riskier the road, the greater the profit." 5) "Employees are the rungs on the ladder of success. Don't hesitate to step on them." 6) "Never place friendship above profit. " 7) "Never be afraid to mislabel a product." 8) "Keep your ears open." 9) "Home is where the heart is, but the stars are made of latinum." 10) "It never hurts to suck up to the boss." DrSunshine fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Oct 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 18:25
|
|
|
Hyperriker posted:DS9 supremacy, folks That last video is just so perfect. But this is why DS9 is the best Trek. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9RbE7Ka1g0
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 18:25
|
|
|
Drone posted:That last video is just so perfect.
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 19:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 15:48 |
|
|
Vagabundo posted:After watching Take Me Out To The Holo-Suite, all I can say about baseball is gently caress BASEBALL. More like we took your sports and made them good    CLASS 5 SPORTS DERAIL DETECTED. INITIATE PROTOCOL SPERG 2 GAMMA: WHICH ENTERPRISE IS BEST?
|
|
#
?
Oct 25, 2013 19:35
|
|
