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Grapplejack posted:I can assure the people they don't want to become China.
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Dec 20, 2014 06:59
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Man the one line from that article that bums me out the most is the old lady who said "turn Cuba back into what it once was", because I know she's talking about Batista's oppressive dictatorship and control by the mob. Goddamit old Cubans, you're almost worse than the boomers.
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Dec 20, 2014 09:13
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Omi-Polari posted:Damien Cave is a kickass reporter: Says one official in a small town.
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Dec 20, 2014 13:41
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TheImmigrant posted:I'm not a cigar smoker, but my dad was disappointed in the Cohibas I brought back last time. Evidently Cuban cigars are nowhere near as good as what DR produces these days. Where did you buy them and what did you pay for them? Cuba has an absolutely massive problem with people selling fake cigars. I smoke a cigar almost every day, and if the best Cuban I've ever had was a 10/10, then the average is about 8.5/10 and the average for non-Cubans I've smoked would be around a 2.5-3/10. Although it is also true that they have a massively different flavour, so I can see why someone who's smoked mostly non-Cuban cigars would not think a Cuban cigar is very appealing. Yet another reason I'm not greatly concerned about the US market opening up and what it could mean for quality control and prices at Habanos, at least in the short term.
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Dec 20, 2014 16:11
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Rexicon1 posted:Man the one line from that article that bums me out the most is the old lady who said "turn Cuba back into what it once was", because I know she's talking about Batista's oppressive dictatorship and control by the mob. Goddamit old Cubans, you're almost worse than the boomers. This isnt necessarily true, though - many of those old Cubans grew up with stories about the pre-Batista constitutional democracy. Granted, a lot of those stories are idealized but to assume they mean exchanging one dictator for another is unfair. The Warszawa fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Dec 20, 2014 |
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Dec 20, 2014 16:26
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The Warszawa posted:This isnt necessarily true, though - many of those old Cubans grew up with stories about the pre-Batista constitutional democracy. Granted, a lot of those stories are idealized but to assume they mean exchanging one dictator for another is unfair. There has never been effective or stable liberal democracy in Cuba. Even from 1906-1925 there were basically constant revolts, parties which challenged the US being banned, like 4 US invasions, etc. In 1925 Machado was elected but he quickly became a dictator and wasnt removed until 1933, at which point Batista outmanuevered a liberal revolutionary junta and took power. Sheng-Ji Yang fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 20, 2014 |
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Dec 20, 2014 18:05
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:There has never been effective or stable liberal democracy in Cuba. Even from 1906-1925 there were basically constant revolts, parties which challenged the US being banned, like 4 US invasions, etc. In 1925 Machado was elected but he quickly became a dictator and wasnt removed until 1933, at which point Batista outmanuevered a liberal revolutionary junta and took power. I'm sure being next to the US has taught them a whole lot of what not to do. 
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Dec 20, 2014 18:30
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Says one official in a small town.  
BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Dec 20, 2014 |
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Dec 20, 2014 18:52
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:There has never been effective or stable liberal democracy in Cuba. Even from 1906-1925 there were basically constant revolts, parties which challenged the US being banned, like 4 US invasions, etc. In 1925 Machado was elected but he quickly became a dictator and wasnt removed until 1933, at which point Batista outmanuevered a liberal revolutionary junta and took power. Batista's dictatorship wasn't continuous from 1933, there were about 10 years of democratic rule from 1940 to Batista's coup in 1952 (less if you want to discount Batista's first elected term under the 1940 Constitution, I guess), during which Grau and Prío were presidents (and I think it's a tough hill to climb to argue they were Batista puppets). I guess you could hem and haw about "effective or stable," but contested election with transfer of power is at least a good goddamn start. The Warszawa fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Dec 20, 2014 |
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Dec 20, 2014 18:52
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The Warszawa posted:Batista's dictatorship wasn't continuous from 1933, there were about 10 years of democratic rule from 1940 to Batista's coup in 1952 (less if you want to discount Batista's first elected term under the 1940 Constitution, I guess), during which Grau and Prío were presidents (and I think it's a tough hill to climb to argue they were Batista puppets). By that measure Guatemala had a democratic tradition.
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Dec 20, 2014 19:04
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Badger of Basra posted:By that measure Guatemala had a democratic tradition. Please keep in mind the reason this was discussed: Rexicon1 posted:Man the one line from that article that bums me out the most is the old lady who said "turn Cuba back into what it once was", because I know she's talking about Batista's oppressive dictatorship and control by the mob. Goddamit old Cubans, you're almost worse than the boomers. The Warszawa posted:This isnt necessarily true, though - many of those old Cubans grew up with stories about the pre-Batista constitutional democracy. Granted, a lot of those stories are idealized but to assume they mean exchanging one dictator for another is unfair. When people are expressing nostalgia about turning Cuba back "into what it once was," they may not be referring to Batista!
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Dec 20, 2014 19:06
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Majorian posted:
It's not like circa-1960 America was real welcoming to homosexuals either. Quite a bit of persecution took place in "politically free" America. It's always weird how people compare real-world countries to their whitewashed fantasies. Like, why are you comparing historical Cuba to the country that historically elevated "owning human beings" to an art form? And really, what purpose does this comparison serve? A country's rulers being shitheels never stopped the US being buddies, see: Vietnam, Saudi Arabia, and so on. Why should some oppression that happened in the 60s have bearing on diplomatic relations in 2015? Should other countries still be punishing the US for Jim Crow, especially given that various oppression is still ongoing? Ongoing political repression is one thing, but this is just rhetorical chaff. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Dec 20, 2014 |
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Dec 20, 2014 20:38
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He sent people to forced labor camps for being gay or Seventh Day Adventists.
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Paul MaudDib posted:It's not like circa-1960 America was real welcoming to homosexuals either. Perhaps you ought to look at the post I was responding to? e: This being the post. Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Dec 20, 2014 |
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Dec 20, 2014 22:15
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Zwabu posted:Interesting that you are actually starting to see distinct positions staked out by Rand Paul and Rubio. But has Hillary managed to duck taking a stand on this yet, and if so, how? Hillary has opposed the embargo for a while and was quick to praise Obama's actions.
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Dec 20, 2014 23:33
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evilweasel posted:Hillary has opposed the embargo for a while and was quick to praise Obama's actions. Good, she'll advance the policy and see through to its end, perhaps. This might take a good deal longer than people would like, at least it is what I'm telling myself.
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Dec 21, 2014 02:46
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Nonsense posted:This might take a good deal longer than people would like, at least it is what I'm telling myself. Marco Rubio needs to crucify himself on this policy before it can become law.
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Dec 21, 2014 05:53
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Alter Ego posted:I agree with literally every one of these tweets. It's not a good feeling. He's getting out front. Alpha House called it, the embargo is suddenly a huge 2016 issue. And only a Republican president could lead Congress to end it "with honor." Warcabbit posted:Known issue with Rand Paul. I think it's called the Five Minute Rule. If you listen to him for less than 5 minutes, he sounds reasonable. Yeah it's going to make some debate exchanges with Hillary look very favorable to him, in the face of some of her more mannered, waffling statements. He will go for the throat on Cuba and she will struggle to sound decisive. e: I take this back, she manages to sound decisive. But she might sound more conniving than Paul. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 08:54
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So like this should have happened a lot sooner.
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Dec 21, 2014 08:55
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vermeul posted:So like this should have happened a lot sooner. It probably would have if Gross hadn't gotten arrested.
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Dec 21, 2014 15:52
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So this is a dumb question, but what is the tap water like in Cuba? How's its quality?
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Dec 21, 2014 20:36
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KomradeX posted:So this is a dumb question, but what is the tap water like in Cuba? How's its quality? I can only speak for Havana, but it's safe to drink even if not particularly "good tasting." The locally produced bottled mineral water, Ciego Montero, is loving amazing and could easily be marketed as a premium water internationally in my opinion.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:07
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I'm entirely convinced Obama knows Metal Gear Solid V is coming out soon and wants it to do really well  . I understand human events through the prism of visual entertainment.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:06
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PT6A posted:I can only speak for Havana, but it's safe to drink even if not particularly "good tasting." The locally produced bottled mineral water, Ciego Montero, is loving amazing and could easily be marketed as a premium water internationally in my opinion. I hate to hear when places have bad tasting tap water, it's one of the many reasons New Jersey is terrible. But I'm sure its still tolerable, unlike New Jersey.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:38
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KomradeX posted:I hate to hear when places have bad tasting tap water, it's one of the many reasons New Jersey is terrible. But I'm sure its still tolerable, unlike New Jersey. It's more than tolerable, I'd say it's about average for mains water in North America in my experience, and better than quite a few.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:04
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KomradeX posted:So this is a dumb question, but what is the tap water like in Cuba? How's its quality? Hit-or-miss in Havana, although everyone drinks it, as no one wants to spend precious cash on bottled water. It's undrinkable in Pinar del Rio, Viñales, and Trinidad. If you can get someone to sell you beer (Cristal) for pesos, $0.05/beer makes water pointless.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:35
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Badger of Basra posted:You're right, the contrast is truly shocking. Would rather live in Detroit. E: that water tower looks fuckin bitchin. And reading up on it, I can't really hate on Harare and would love to see any goddamn place outside the United States before I die :/ Cuba sounds like a great start to me
Armani fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 07:08
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Omi-Polari posted:Yeah and I mean that seriously. Congested streets are a sign of a healthy economy. Taking your motorbike down to the microbusiness -- that you own -- beats standing around with nothing to do all day like your average Cuban. Walk down Obispo or the Malecon at any time of the day or night and tell me the streets aren't congested. Or 5ta Avenida in Miramar. I mean, yeah, sidestreets anywhere are pretty quiet, but of the many problems exhibited by Cuban streets, I'm not sure how you could put "lack of congestion" among them.
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Dec 22, 2014 14:59
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My gosh this street isn't packed with cars like a city center. What have you done, Raul Castro. What have you done.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:44
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PT6A posted:Walk down Obispo or the Malecon at any time of the day or night and tell me the streets aren't congested. Or 5ta Avenida in Miramar. I mean, yeah, sidestreets anywhere are pretty quiet, but of the many problems exhibited by Cuban streets, I'm not sure how you could put "lack of congestion" among them. Even Managua has more traffic than Havana. Havana's level of commerce and traffic is comparable to that of Belize City, which has about 80,000 people. Havana has several million.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:49
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Badger of Basra posted:You're right, the contrast is truly shocking. Nice photo of downtown Detroit there bud.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:03
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Uncle Jam posted:Nice photo of downtown Detroit there bud. I think the point is that, by cherry-picking the right part(s) of the city, you can make any city seem good, bad, modern, decrepit, busy, or deserted. Havana may not be as busy as the average city of its size, but to pretend it's accurately represented by a photo of two men standing on a sidestreet is just absolutely loving retarded.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:06
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Uncle Jam posted:Nice photo of downtown Detroit there bud. He's making fun of the other guy who did exactly that bud.
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Dec 22, 2014 23:44
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PT6A posted:I think the point is that, by cherry-picking the right part(s) of the city, you can make any city seem good, bad, modern, decrepit, busy, or deserted. Havana may not be as busy as the average city of its size, but to pretend it's accurately represented by a photo of two men standing on a sidestreet is just absolutely loving retarded.
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Dec 22, 2014 23:47
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Uncle Jam posted:Nice photo of downtown Detroit there bud. 
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Dec 28, 2014 09:26
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B-but it's so hard being white! Waaaaaagh!
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So close... I haven't actually been following since December but I'm assuming this sinks it?
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Jan 29, 2015 16:40
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Demiurge4 posted:So close... I think what they mean by "normal" is "hey we're all buddies here, want to go to the baseball game" instead of "we've stopped loving with each other as much as humanly possible". Cuba hasn't given up its demands for Guantanamo, the ending of the embargo (which Obama is cool with but Congress is not), and compensation for the embargo (not happening). The United States hasn't given up its demands that Cuba become an actual democracy. It's just that what each side is willing to do in pursuit of those aims has changed.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:46
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Demiurge4 posted:So close... I imagine that the State Department saw this coming so I doubt that it'll torpedo the talks. If relations were normalized there wouldn't be much strategic use to Gitmo anyway.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:47
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Well that's good. I guess its just last minute bluster for the domestic market then I really hope this goes through and I just had that sinking feeling when I saw this article on my newsfeed.
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Jan 29, 2015 16:48
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Seeing the same story on reddit, and you suddenly have 1000+ blood nationalists wanting to die to keep Guantanamo under America's graceful wings. That is how I know that it won't at all be an issue.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:10
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Nonsense posted:Seeing the same story on reddit, and you suddenly have 1000+ blood nationalists wanting to die to keep Guantanamo under America's graceful wings. That is how I know that it won't at all be an issue. Gitmo will be an issue, but I don't think it's a deal-breaker. US withdrawal from Gitmo and cancellation of the lease can be phased in over time, just like Castro's other demands. Dude's smoking crack if he thinks that he'll get reparations, though.
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Jan 29, 2015 19:24
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