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Bioshuffle posted:I rarely see people make a post to refute a claim without attaching an insult. I am curious about the mod's approach to the amount of personal attacks which takes place. Hopefully their approach to this issue is that you should try hardening up a bit, because respectfully exchanging points like this is Fancy Lad Debate Club both obscures the fact that for a lot of people this poo poo is not theoretical, and also is really boring to read
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Oct 27, 2020 20:33
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I mean, I like the hardness and comedy of the forum. I'm okay with people making fun of each other in jest. The only issue I have is that it sometimes becomes only insults. That's boring and not remotely entertaining.
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Oct 27, 2020 20:41
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If people are meaningfully refuting your point, they don't have to spare your feelings. They might be probed if they go way too far, but if they tell your a point is stupid or unethical and can back that up, sorry.
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Oct 27, 2020 21:48
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Gabriel S. posted:I mean, I like the hardness and comedy of the forum. I'm okay with people making fun of each other in jest. The only issue I have is that it sometimes becomes only insults. That's boring and not remotely entertaining. Maybe the reason it seems like this is because you're an awful dogshit poster and people have learned that rather than try and refute your nonsense it's best to just insult you until you leave and add their names to your creepy PM ban list (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 27, 2020 23:16
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Crane Fist posted:It's simple: everyone gets free university if they want it, but they're not allowed to study economics. Given the harm economists have done to our society, it's just good sense- unleashing more Sommers and Greenspans on the world is akin to if a university ran a class on making and mailing pipe bombs, for example. An example of an extremely good, zero nonsense poster that wants the government to explicitly limit access to "a social science concerned chiefly with description and analysis of the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services" I don't know who gabriel is nor the quality of their posts, but 
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Oct 27, 2020 23:31
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Crane Fist posted:Maybe the reason it seems like this is because you're an awful dogshit poster and people have learned that rather than try and refute your nonsense it's best to just insult you until you leave and add their names to your creepy PM ban list I mean, I like the hardness and comedy of the forum. I'm okay with people making fun of other people in jest. The only issue I have is that sometimes people win arguments against me. That's when I change my name again and start blind PMing everyone who has ever agreed with me asking who they think the worst posters are. E: KingNastidon posted:I don't know who gabriel is nor the quality of their posts, but Maybe you should do your research before you make a post like this? Somfin fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Oct 27, 2020 |
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Oct 27, 2020 23:32
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Somfin posted:Maybe you should do your research before you make a post like this? I don't see why doing a deep dive into gabriel's post history is necessary to highlight the irony of a dogshit edgelord calling someone else a dogshit poster. If we want to end "economics" as a discipline or a topic of discussion we can start right here!
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Oct 27, 2020 23:38
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KingNastidon posted:An example of an extremely good, zero nonsense poster that wants the government to explicitly limit access to "a social science concerned chiefly with description and analysis of the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services" Frankly lad if you read that post where I said economics should be illegal and thought "this is a sincere expression of his beliefs" you should be banned for your own good before someone tells your they're the wallet inspector or something
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Oct 27, 2020 23:41
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Crane Fist posted:Frankly lad if you read that post where I said economics should be illegal and thought "this is a sincere expression of his beliefs" you should be banned for your own good before someone tells your they're the wallet inspector or something are you admitting to the mods that you were not posting in good faith...stirring poo poo for the sake of it...
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Oct 27, 2020 23:43
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"can you believe this guy thinks the goverent should round up economists and jail them?? I'll buy him a custom title to make sure every e knows what a rube he is once that Nigerian Prince sends me the money he promised"KingNastidon posted:are you admitting to the mods that you were not posting in good faith...stirring poo poo for the sake of it... lmao oh my god, check out Aaron sorkin over here
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Oct 27, 2020 23:43
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KingNastidon posted:An example of an extremely good, zero nonsense poster that wants the government to explicitly limit access to "a social science concerned chiefly with description and analysis of the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services"  this is not really the thread for it, eitherI think he makes a good point though - like maybe your overall point here is sound but you should have picked a better post
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Oct 28, 2020 00:06
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I mean you might as well say that alchemy is the study of physical matter and its properties, and the applications thereof, and that if we're going to have free uni then students should be able to study that as well.
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Oct 28, 2020 00:10
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Crane Fist posted:Hopefully their approach to this issue is that you should try hardening up a bit, because respectfully exchanging points like this is Fancy Lad Debate Club both obscures the fact that for a lot of people this poo poo is not theoretical, and also is really boring to read i like the juxtaposition of "for some people this is real street poo poo, this is life or death" when it comes to whether or not to be catty to a stranger on an internet forum
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Oct 28, 2020 00:12
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:I mean you might as well say that alchemy is the study of physical matter and its properties, and the applications thereof, and that if we're going to have free uni then students should be able to study that as well. A thread about which fields of study within higher education should qualify for public funding or the regulation of course content would be fascinating! Make the thread
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Oct 28, 2020 00:23
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Crane Fist posted:Maybe the reason it seems like this is because you're an awful dogshit poster and people have learned that rather than try and refute your nonsense it's best to just insult you until you leave and add their names to your creepy PM ban list. That list was a dumb mistake on my part. It didn't accomplish anything, created a bunch of unnecessary drama and for that I am sorry. Oddly enough, since then quite a few folks from that very list have been banned. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 00:39
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Gabriel S. posted:Oddly enough, since then quite a few folks from that very list have been banned. On second thought maybe I should have done my research
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Oct 28, 2020 01:04
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KingNastidon posted:On second thought maybe I should have done my research Touche. On the flip side, being harassed over a discussion that occurred over six plus months ago is awfully tiresome.
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Oct 28, 2020 01:25
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Insults like, "So-and-so is not very smart" without responding to the actual arguments and effort is something that would be nice to see curbed a little more.
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Oct 28, 2020 02:56
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Raenir Salazar posted:Insults like, "So-and-so is not very smart" without responding to the actual arguments and effort is something that would be nice to see curbed a little more. I don't care for that stuff either. Feel free to PM me whenever that comes up.
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Oct 28, 2020 03:16
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 And the really weird reverse psychoanalysis posting needs to go away. While I have no doubt many of us of are well off, might have gone to college, etc. Seeing the argument that "you only believe X, Y and Z because you went to college." is extremely lame. Attack the argument. Not someone's assumed circumstances.
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Oct 28, 2020 04:34
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I can't say I've ever had someone say that to me. Perhaps the duty is incumbent upon posters to be more capable of seeing other people's perspectives rather than the moderation to protect their lack of such ability? I dunno a whole lot of the complaints seem to be about things I have never had a problem with, and even if I did encounter them I am sure I could manage to continue a conversation regardless. I don't really think you need to try to ban forms of argumentation because you don't like them. Like if someone thinks that I have underlying assumptions that are making me resistant to their argument are they just supposed to... not point that out? Are my inherent assumptions sacrosacnt or something? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 04:40
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OwlFancier posted:I can't say I've ever had someone say that to me. Perhaps the duty is incumbent upon posters to be more capable of seeing other people's perspectives rather than the moderation to protect their lack of such ability?
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Oct 28, 2020 05:12
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I don't think it does, it just stops people posting. Like that's a pretty well understood thing? Punishment does not encourage improvement. Nor, I think, necessarily does asking. If people are not feeling the inclination to post well then I don't think there is anything you can do to make them. And if people are not feeling that inclination I would suggest their environment, online yes but also offline, is probably the reason for that. You can't moderate your way into a happy forum in unhappy times. You especially can't do that among people who have fundamental disconnects in their view of the world in such a way that prevents them from forming a sense of camraderie with each other. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 05:38
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think it does, it just stops people posting. Punishment absolutely does encourage improvement. If it doesn't, that means it's time to severe ties with that poster, via threadbans, forum bans or account bans. The goal of moderation is not to end up with a "happy forum" where everyone sings kumbaya around the camp fire. It's to end up with a forum where people hash out their disagreements in a civil fashion, ideally in ways that others can learn or gain new insights from. As the saying goes, it's okay to disagree, but not to be disagreeable. Moderation can definitely discourage the latter.
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Oct 28, 2020 05:49
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That is normally how it goes, yes, the moderators decide that Something Must Be Done because if they don't do anything why do we even have them? And then they ban a bunch of people in varyingly roundabout ways, and then they stop posting and yet here we are, still, apparently in need of more Things Being Done, having gone through many moderators and posters. Which is sort of my point, it stops people posting, nothing more. That is the only tool they have, and as long as they exist they will find reasons to use it, it has to be effective because if it isn't that might raise the question of why they exist in the first place, and if it isn't effective it's the fault of the posters and the solution is harsher curtailments of their posting, because again that's all they can do. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 05:52
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think it does, it just stops people posting. Eh, I feel like most of my probes have helped my posting in some way shape or form; or otherwise taught me to avoid certain sections of the forums and stick to where culturally I fit in better.
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Oct 28, 2020 05:57
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Raenir Salazar posted:Eh, I feel like most of my probes have helped my posting in some way shape or form; or otherwise taught me to avoid certain sections of the forums and stick to where culturally I fit in better. Some of my probations have coincided with improvements in my posting but none of them have been a result of the probation. Because probations communicate nothing except that some jumped up rear end in a top hat decided to flex a bit. The only thing that improves me is when people I have actually come to respect correct me, and that respect is earned through the fact that I talk to and read what those people say a lot, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether they are moderators or not and if anything the tendency to allow the probe button to subsitute for the reply button only diminishes whatever respect I might have for them. Which again, circles back to my general thesis, you cannot moderate improvement, because arbitrary authority cannot command respect, it can only punish, it gives no incentive to improve, it merely annoys the subjects of its attention until they leave. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 06:01
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Gabriel S. posted:Touche. Can we have some more details about precisely what your list of bad posters was meant to do? A lot of people were quite hurt and scared knowing it existed and it quite likely led to hurt feelings and animosity. Coming clean would clear up a lot of bad blood.
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Oct 28, 2020 06:25
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Gabriel S. posted:On the flip side, being harassed over a discussion that occurred over six plus months ago is awfully tiresome.
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Oct 28, 2020 06:40
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I'm going to politely ask all parties involved to stop this slow motion slapfight that's been going on half the day, or we can start experiments with ramping right here in this very thread.
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Oct 28, 2020 06:46
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Please stop the dumb slap fight of dumb, poo poo like this is not helpful and basically is just meant to target one poster and not actually do poo poo. Here is an actual question. Next week is the election, do the mods and admins have any planned changes or announcements for how DnD may improve after the election? When the election changes I know that things may finally temper down as some of the biggest boil points start to be less of an issue but was wondering if that would also bring some planned changes to help the forum as a whole to reduce the hostility and promote more interaction. (besides the polliwonks planned nate/fivey challenge)
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Oct 28, 2020 07:10
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Systemic (attempts at) improvement are already underway, basically. Mod culture changes are usually sneaky sea changes in some way or another. And what happened this go-around is something you can effectively read as "a lot of the resistance to threadbans and forum bans has kinda just melted away out of frustrating necessities, and these will be much more common in the future" They can codify it or not but what it (probably. hopefully) effectively means if that happens is that people won't be able to build up such absolutely mindbendingly awful and long tenures as extremely bad posters (whose tenures help build up and normalize lovely derails and terrible boring runaround).
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Oct 28, 2020 09:30
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Even moderator "cultural" changes ought to be transparent as weird as that sounds. Or at least try. And I'm still perplexed - what was the conclusion on ramping or thread banning? It seems like some support it and others do not. Not definitive. We were supposedly going to get an official decision earlier this weekend but that didn't occur.
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Oct 28, 2020 12:59
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Gabriel S. posted:Even moderator "cultural" changes ought to be transparent as weird as that sounds. Or at least try. And I'm still perplexed - what was the conclusion on ramping or thread banning? It seems like some support it and others do not. Not definitive. We were supposedly going to get an official decision earlier this weekend but that didn't occur. We haven't really heard much of anything, despite accountability and transparency being two of the most brought up issues in the admin run D&D feedback thread. D&D got a new IK that's apparently hell bent on punishing "doomposting" (whatever it's convenient for that to mean at any given time), pissing off CSPAM, and wielding the specter of mental health as an argumentation cudgel, so we got that going for us, which is nice.
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Oct 28, 2020 14:24
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If you have an issue with one of the IKs, try talking with them or with a mod about it.
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Oct 28, 2020 14:31
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Marx Was A Lib posted:D&D got a new IK that's apparently hell bent on punishing "doomposting" (whatever it's convenient for that to mean at any given time), As a learning experience so that we as a community can better understand your concern, in what ways did you find this post unclear or lacking in transparency? Seven Hundred Bee posted:Also, unrelated to us over analyzing a specific poll:
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Oct 28, 2020 14:34
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Paracaidas posted:As a learning experience so that we as a community can better understand your concern, in what ways did you find this post unclear or lacking in transparency? Bush v Gore wasn't fanfiction. Using mental health as a cudgel (to paraphrase: 'the notion that this could happen could upset people with mental health concerns!') is absolutely loving disgusting, if I might add from a perspective of someone whose been off their depression meds since they lost their decent insurance in April. Main Paineframe posted:If you have an issue with one of the IKs, try talking with them or with a mod about it. Marx Was A Lib posted:accountability and transparency being two of the most brought up issues in the admin run D&D feedback thread. Putting poo poo in PMs is thwarts any idea of transparency or accountability, unless this is somehow tacitly endorsing us to share our PMs with mods/iks with the larger community?
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Oct 28, 2020 14:44
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Marx Was A Lib posted:Bush v Gore wasn't fanfiction. Using mental health as a cudgel (to paraphrase: 'the notion that this could happen could upset people with mental health concerns!') is absolutely loving disgusting, if I might add from a perspective of someone whose been off their depression meds since they lost their decent insurance in April. Also it loving sucks that you're being failed by our dumpsterfire of a healthcare and legislative system.
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Oct 28, 2020 14:53
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Paracaidas posted:Again, in what way was his post unclear or lacking transparency? I understand you disagree with his directive and find his reasoning offensive, but when I look at the quoted post I see an explanation of his directive, an example of what is unacceptable, and two examples of the reasoning why. That feels responsive to concerns about transparency and clarity to me, so I'd like to understand how you feel that's fallen short. The entire PM system is the opposite of transparency. The DnD feedback thread focused on moderation should be an open space to give feedback about DnD moderation.
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Oct 28, 2020 14:57
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Paracaidas posted:Again, in what way was his post unclear or lacking transparency? I understand you disagree with his directive and find his reasoning offensive, but when I look at the quoted post I see an explanation of his directive, an example of what is unacceptable, and two examples of the reasoning why. That feels responsive to concerns about transparency and clarity to me, so I'd like to understand how you feel that's fallen short. Sorry, maybe I didn't do a good enough job at expressing myself. That IK is perfectly clear in stating their...logic, the thing that defeats the idea of transparency/accountability is that moderator/ik feedback should be discussed in PMs, not in open forum. It's almost analogous to being told to "just vote!" You drop your message into some authoritative inbox, and maybe it ends up in the circular file, maybe it gets read in and doesn't matter because you don't meet some esoteric set of conditions that says your input actually matters. Maybe something gets done, maybe everyone just has a laugh about how the posters think they have any say in the running of the community that their  at a time antics have kept running for 20 years, but ultimately unless something blows up in a big spat of drama publicly, we really have no idea on what actually happens in modchat that hasn't been vetted for a press release to the forums at large.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:00
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