|
generic one posted:I’m not really sure how to interpret the bolded part. Are you merely asking if it would have happened without Trump, or are you implying there would be no difference in its impact, regardless of who was president? The second one. With or without Trump there would still be a Cuomo, a Fauci, a Newsom, all those red state guys, but no one is arguing thy Trump isn't to blame. Same thing applies to Biden and the Iraq war.
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 01:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 16:42 |
|
|
Sodomy Hussein posted:I'm not going to further entertain this to turn this thread into U.S. Pol 2 just because some posters got laughed out of that one. In practical terms if you didn't vote for Biden or Trump you may as well have not voted for president at all. That is the choice in front of people who have not decided that engaging with the electoral system is unacceptable. That is why people voted Biden even when they suspected or believed he committed a sexual assault. Because the one actual alternative admitted to one on tape, and nothing happened, except that he got to mismanage a hundred-year pandemic and kill hundreds of thousands through negligence. Hey, you're the one who said it. Not sure what USPol has to do with anything, I've never posted in there. As for the rest, I'm unclear on what your point is. Do you think voting for Biden is effective harm reduction?
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 02:01
|
|
|
some plague rats posted:The second one. With or without Trump there would still be a Cuomo, a Fauci, a Newsom, all those red state guys, but no one is arguing thy Trump isn't to blame. Same thing applies to Biden and the Iraq war. There’s a lot of nuance in those comparisons, though. Would you blame all the members of Congress who voted for the Iraq war more than the administration responsible for creating the subterfuge, or vice versa? Similarly, would you blame state level officials for the COVID response more than the administration responsible for creating the subterfuge, or vice versa? I feel like you’re failing to recognize how much influence the executive branch has downstream.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 02:18
|
|
|
This is neither a general electoralism thread nor a general Biden administration thread. I can think of rather a lot of other avenues for this thread to go down (there have been a couple good "where do we go from here" or "what does this all tell us about rape culture" posts, for example), but neither of the first two things are really topical here.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 02:21
|
|
|
generic one posted:I’m not sure that really lines up with, what I interpret as being, the argument being made for harm reduction. A vote for La Riva wouldn’t have had any impact on who was elected president, at least in the 2020 election. Advocating for harm reduction is a way for people justify their repugnant and morally bankrupt approach to voting. Or maybe it is just another way people were tricked into voting for a rapist, if we're being charitable. My opinion is that if you're seriously deciding to vote for people who have done outright evil things just because you think there might be a slightly less awful outcome overall, you've lost sight of the fact that as long as people like you are stuck on voting strategically instead of shaming people for even considering to vote for rapists, warmongers, thieves, and murderers we will not peacefully remove objectionable politicians ever. It is easy for a politician to appear slightly less harmful than the other popular candidate. GreyjoyBastard posted:This is neither a general electoralism thread nor a general Biden administration thread. I can think of rather a lot of other avenues for this thread to go down (there have been a couple good "where do we go from here" or "what does this all tell us about rape culture" posts, for example), but neither of the first two things are really topical here. I agree, but people will inevitably touch on the idea that in this specific case, for this specific victim, the extenuating circumstances around the election in general mean they deserve a dispensation for having held their nose and voted for a shitbag. They do not. They're bad people because they knew what they did. Part of "where do we go" includes calling out people for being bad. John_A_Tallon fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Feb 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 02:30
|
|
|
John_A_Tallon posted:My opinion is that if you're seriously deciding to vote for people who have done outright evil things just because you think there might be a slightly less awful outcome overall, you've lost sight of the fact that as long as people like you are stuck on voting strategically instead of shaming people for even considering to vote for rapists, warmongers, thieves, and murderers we will not peacefully remove objectionable politicians ever. It is easy for a politician to appear slightly less harmful than the other popular candidate. I have a couple of friends and family members who have been abused and/or raped, knew of the allegations against Biden, recognized it was either going to be him or Trump, and still punched the ticket for Biden instead of throwing away their vote and risk letting Trump be re-elected. I do not have any plans on shaming them for that decision. It’s not as easy as just breaking out the bell and “SHAME” chant. People are complex, and our electoral system is largely beneficial to only two parties. Just saying “vote for La Riva” as an alternative is naive. I’m gonna leave it at that, in respect for GreyjoyBastard’s wishes, because I’ll probably be lurching too far into off-topic subjects. Admittedly, I probably already have, and if I catch a probation, I’m good with that, because I felt like it needed to be said.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 03:14
|
|
|
Actual change is never easy. Changing the course of a culture of millions of people is a task that will take a long time; if it's measurable in a handful of generations we got off cheap. A lot of people are going to end up feeling bad that they did bad things. That's a good thing, it means they recognize they need to adjust their own value system so that it matches what they actually claim they are. It's not an enjoyable process, especially since it starts with someone saying, "You suck!"
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 03:24
|
|
|
The only way forward is through sincerity. Playing every action like a game has led us here. Excusing bad behavior. Oppression. Not calling poo poo out. There are sociopaths among us. They construct and apply game-like rules to inappropriate situations. They are empowered by these games.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 03:41
|
|
|
Corky Romanovsky posted:The only way forward is through sincerity. Playing every action like a game has led us here. Excusing bad behavior. Oppression. Not calling poo poo out. Exactly this. We need to make toxic behavior & sexual assault dealbreakers for any public figure, and especially for politicians. Name & shame; rinse & repeat. No more brushing away assault as "creepy grandpa poo poo," "being handsy" or "showing affection." And definitely no more lesser-evilism, as if an actual smaller number of rapes than one's opponent qualifies one to hold office. Mores & social standards change over time, but not on their own. They change because people speak out, draw lines in the sand, and refuse to back down, even when at the cost of their reputations, their professions and their livelihoods. A year or so before Joe Biden sexually assaulted Tara Reade, I was sexually assaulted on a train ride home from my office job. It was an express train, during daylight hours, and the car was packed with commuters--all of whom refused to help me when I pleaded for them to fetch a brakeman or tell the conductor after I'd been assaulted. At the end of the line, when we both got off the train, I yelled at the creep that I'd follow him on his connecting train and up to his house if he left the platform, and also asked the other commuters if they'd find police for me; again, everyone ignored me except for a homeless-looking guy, who did find two officers who came up to the platform. Watching the creep get handcuffed & hauled off felt terrific, but then I had to go to court four or five times bc the creep got a lawyer who kept getting continuances. The first time I met with a D.A. she (yes, she) asked me what I was wearing on the train the day I was assaulted. A subsequent D.A. at a subsequent hearing finally wrangled a conviction by ridiculing the offender's defense that he was asleep when his hand autonomously felt me up from the seat behind me. The creep got a year's supervision, but it was worth all the PTO I'd used for court dates just to see his face blanch at the judge's verdict. I'm not relaying this story as personal heroics; he just happened to be my particular tipping point for my experiencing what had then been decades of low- and high-level sexual harassment. I didn't risk my income or my reputation by insisting that the state press charges, or by testifying. But I did learn to speak up & speak out, and I'll be damned if I ever will vote for another creep for any office for any reason, including so-called lesser-evilism.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 21:20
|
|
|
I was leery to come back in this thread but I want to bring something up over the last few pages I've noted seem to be in repeat. There's a lot of talk about moral action while then saying things that are incredibly focused on Christian esc views of morality, aka a very black and white world view. There was a mention of actively shaming people who voted for Biden, or every time he's brought up say he's a rapist. My question is, do you actually think this will improve the conversation? Does that sort of "i'm morally pure and you're not, or you've done something bad and should feel shame" approach actually improve anything? Because I have not seen a lot of people react well to that sort of hostile approach. Also, somebody brought up how casting cast porn should be frowned upon and again, that just looks and feels like Christian morality bullshit disguised with a different coat of paint. (Again, if you're not hurting anyone and it's involving consenting adults I don't have a problem with it. If that's not your thing that's fine too!) I'm not trying to shame or blame anyone in this thread who feels this way. My completely unprofessional view is there's a lot of victims in here with their own histories that have not processed their trauma, and it makes sense their views can be on the more extreme end, or in the middle or wherever they are. That's fine. And I've avoided saying this (because I know i'll probably get a "whoa" to the whole post anyway) but at this post I'll just say I'm also somebody who's been sexually assaulted. Multiple times. But it was a long time ago, and it did not effect me very much, for whatever reason. That's not me being better than anyone else, I just got weirdly lucky with my brain. For instance, I refuse to call myself a victim. When it happened (both men and women) I told them in the moment if they ever did it again there would be very bad consequences for them. (I was a bartender). Part of it is my privilege for sure as well, if they had continued to be aggressive, I could have stopped them if I needed to. But there has to be a way of moving forward where these discussions can happen without it becoming a moral pissing contest, or not understanding the logical reasons somebody voted for a candidate even if they knew it wasn't the best candidate for the job, but the only option in that choice. Which brings me back to Biden. Voting for Biden did in fact save tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives. Were there other candidates that could have done the same that had no history of being a sexual predator? Yes. I would have loved to have voted for one. But your fellow citizens did not vote for them. The choice in the end was him or Trump or nothing, and I chose saving lives by voting for him, knowing what he was. I'd do it again. The reality is that things move both slowly and very fast in society. We literally have never lived at a better time to be a human being. (of course chances are this is the last few hundred years of humans is also high, and if you're choosing to have children boy it's strange if you're talking about the morality of voting for Biden) The fact that being groped is now something that is (starting ) to be something that means the assaulter could face serious consequences for is a good thing. The very concept of talking about consent and it becoming popular to talk about is great. But how we move the conversation forward faster, and getting people to change problematic behavior is something that I can't see being as effective if we frame the conversation out of shame or fear base, versus understanding and setting forth better boundaries and systems. At the same time, there was a thread recently on twitter by a sex worker talking about in her view generation Z is the most morally rigid and conservative they've seen. A lot of shaming peers for saying problematic poo poo when they're teens and what not. They're getting clout by outing others for having uniformed opinions, which then make the idiots be shamed at school, while they get to be more popular for being "morally pure". This thread often times feels like it's following that approach, and I'm not entirely sure that actually helps things. Telling the idiots, "hey, you're being silly and here's why," at least to start, seems way more effective of creating change versus just screenshooting a private text thread and posting it on Tok to blow up some fifteen year olds life. That's a side tangent, and not what I'm saying we should do with actual predators, but how we address things is important to the larger whole. My personal belief is that the more we base our consequences moral views in basic christian dogmatic views, the longer it will take to actually improve society, and that's both the biggest conversations (climate change and military industrial complex post scarcity-society) and still big but smaller ones like this one. I want to be clear that I'm not saying that idiot teens are the same as sexual predators, but what I am saying is that just saying "lock them all up" without trying to also address the societal issues that helps foster that behavior is also important. And until we address how messed up a lot of American culture views of sexuality are addressed (and comprehensive sex ed in schools) we'll continue to have a lot of lovely predators both getting away with behavior, but also being created. I'd rather both address the current issues as well as eliminating environments and acceptable societal beliefs that helps creates predators in the first place. LionArcher fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Feb 24, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2021 22:57
|
|
|
I think one of the issues is that Bidens so old that it isnt like he's going to change any of his behaviors. Younger folks clearly care alot more now about things like consent and clear communication because thats starting to really be taught in schools and hopefully by parents too. No means no. Not saying anything isnt consent, etc. There's alot less allowance with younger folks to accept bullshit like "what were you wearing" as a legitimate question. Its a whole societal thing. And it was clear when it came down to voting that younger people didn't want Biden but got steamrolled.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 00:02
|
|
|
I read up until the bit where you said you've been sexually assaulted multiple times but you don't mind and you could threaten them because you were a bartender(?) and then I just started scrolling past which I assume was the correct choice
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 00:22
|
|
|
To be clear, re: LionArcher's post, I don't believe in shaming people for voting for Biden or other rapists (although I'm a bit  of that "saving tens of thousands of lives" bit).The perps are the ones who need to be named & shamed, not voters, as well as the media who cover for the perps, and the organizational entities who try to shift the naming & blaming onto accusers instead of the perps, and the female political leaders who try to dismiss the acts of the perps through pinkwashing and thus serve as cover for the perps. I, personally, won't knowingly vote for rapists for political office, but I can totally understand why others believe that they have to, especially when they *do* believe in moral relativism. I don't think it's puritanical (nor is it a purity test) to make this choice for myself.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 00:26
|
|
|
Willa Rogers posted:
But Willa, something something Christian morality something something fifteen years old on tiktok (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 00:29
|
|
|
some plague rats posted:I read up until the bit where you said you've been sexually assaulted multiple times but you don't mind and you could threaten them because you were a bartender(?) and then I just started scrolling past which I assume was the correct choice To be clear. I was assaulted in the context of me being a bartender doing my job. I informed them that there would be consequences depending on context. The regular who was clearly crushing on me, and someone else at my job over-served them and they groped me when I was busy dealing with three four tops and a six top while they may the way to the bathroom. A simple "Please don't do that I don't want to kick you out," versus the random who I had the bouncers bounce. My case(s) is a very specific and like I said, not normal. I was assaulted while holding a position of power, and had both the backing of the work place and the physical ability to stop something if they had escalated it (when I wasn't carrying ten freaking items.) I will say, "and then I just starting scrolling past" is where the puritanical stuff flares up I was referring to. I'm not in here trolling. I'm in here giving a very specific opinion, that may go against the views of plenty in this thread. That's fine. But the thread in theory is also about how do we move forward, and my original post was pointing out there's multiple things to deal with, and how some ways of engaging perhaps does not help.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 00:35
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:Also, somebody brought up how casting cast porn should be frowned upon and again, that just looks and feels like Christian morality bullshit disguised with a different coat of paint Have you ever watched any of it? The structure of these fantasies explicitly place a female actress in distress, and imply that she's putting herself in the way of sexual assault deliberately in a "wink wink nudge nudge" way. Suggesting that this is a bad thing has nothing to do with religious morality and everything to do with a desire to not normalize the idea that because a woman needs something (a job, a ride somewhere, whatever the goal might be) then it's normal and acceptable for a person in power to demand she suck and gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 00:38
|
|
|
some plague rats posted:I read up until the bit where you said you've been sexually assaulted multiple times but you don't mind and you could threaten them because you were a bartender(?) and then I just started scrolling past which I assume was the correct choice I don’t think it’s right to hand-wave what they said. I’m reminded of when Terry Crews shared his story of being sexually assaulted, and 50 Cent and Russell Simmons mocked him, basically saying Crews wanted that to happen.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 00:42
|
|
|
Willa Rogers posted:To be clear, re: LionArcher's post, I don't believe in shaming people for voting for Biden or other rapists (although I'm a bit Not wanting to vote for a rapist and choosing not to vote for them is 100% a personal choice and I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is when people say they don't vote for him because he's a rapist and "my morals are better than that," or something along those lines, especially when they've willingly had a bunch of kids. Making the moral judgment that you are better than those who picked the lesser of two evils (I'm better than you rhetoric) while doing something that in the larger scheme of things is ethically far more questionable (having kids as a choice in the current environment versus adopting) than voting for someone that you thought would (and has) saved tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives, even if they've done acts of evil in the past. And this is not to say I look at any parent and think, "you're bad". I don't. But if we're getting into the "I'm better than," rhetoric, that's an easy behavior to point out is inherently not great giving the current crisis on society.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 00:44
|
|
|
John_A_Tallon posted:Have you ever watched any of it? The structure of these fantasies explicitly place a female actress in distress, and imply that she's putting herself in the way of sexual assault deliberately in a "wink wink nudge nudge" way. Suggesting that this is a bad thing has nothing to do with religious morality and everything to do with a desire to not normalize the idea that because a woman needs something (a job, a ride somewhere, whatever the goal might be) then it's normal and acceptable for a person in power to demand she suck and gently caress. I've never seen what you're describing. What I've considered "casting cast porn" is the stuff where the guy is trying to get a girl who wants to "model" or do porn to sleep with them right there. Not exactly feminist, and not my personal jam but not what you're talking about. At the same time, while that stuff makes me leery, non consent, blackmail and power fantasies are also popular with both women and men, at least according to stuff I've read. I don't have any desire to watch it, but I'm also aware that stuff (with consent clips at the beginning and end of the video, I'm pretty sure Kink makes those) are popular. I'm not one to kink shame, even if it in theory is problematic.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 00:50
|
|
|
E: actually disregard. I'm having a really bad day and I don't want to yell at this guy for having porn opinions
some plague rats fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Feb 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 01:10
|
|
|
As I said before, Trump was defeated. Now Biden has to go. What is the moral imperative for not calling for his resignation?
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 01:55
|
|
|
PeterCat posted:As I said before, Trump was defeated. Now Biden has to go. “As I said before”. That strikes me as a little weird. Anyway, do you need actual assistance with calling for his resignation, or something else? If it’s the former, you can probably start with contacting your representatives and senators. You can look up your rep by going to this link and entering their zip code. Each page should have some kind of contact form. Same thing with senators, but they can be found at this link. I would imagine there are other things one could do, and I’ll let other folks weigh in. If it’s the latter, and it’s something like you’re just trying to pick a fight with other posters, well, I’m not no gonna be much help there. Good luck with... all that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 02:28
|
|
|
Biden's not gonna be impeached for sexually assaulting Tara Reade 30 years ago. Best bet is to wait for Pres. Puddin'head to gracefully withdraw from office (or die) before 2024, then work like hell to challenge Harris, the de facto 2024 nominee, and herself a rape apologist. If, by the grace of satan & new dementia meds making it to market before then, Biden does decide to run for reelection, his sexual assault record should be added to the pile of his other horrible actions and there should also be an offensive against an ingratiating media working to cover up those horrible actions--and he should be challenged in the primary as well.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 02:37
|
|
|
Willa Rogers posted:Biden's not gonna be impeached for sexually assaulting Tara Reade 30 years ago. Realistically, totally agreed. The poster I replied to seems to think there’s an immediate and necessary solution, so I provided them with a way of expressing their displeasure, regardless of how futile that attempt may be.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 02:54
|
|
|
generic one posted:Realistically, totally agreed. The poster I replied to seems to think there’s an immediate and necessary solution, so I provided them with a way of expressing their displeasure, regardless of how futile that attempt may be. I'm tired of everyone excusing Biden by stating that they had to vote for him. Fine, that's over and done with, you don't get that excuse anymore. Going forward, all you're doing is supporting someone you have acknowledged is a rapist. Willa Rogers posted:Biden's not gonna be impeached for sexually assaulting Tara Reade 30 years ago. IDK, if the Republicans gain the House in 2022, I'd lay even odds they will.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 13:56
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:Not wanting to vote for a rapist and choosing not to vote for them is 100% a personal choice and I have no problem with that. lmao (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 14:03
|
|
|
LionArcher posted:Not wanting to vote for a rapist and choosing not to vote for them is 100% a personal choice and I have no problem with that. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that anyone who has children without going through the massive, often discriminatory, hoops to adopt is not just equally as ethically questionable but -more- ethically questionable than someone who provides material support in the process of electing a rapist to one of the most powerful seats in the world? Can't say I agree with that
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 14:29
|
|
|
PeterCat posted:
Would you prefer this to happen? This is really the crux of it, and it sucks. I desperately, desperately do not want this to happen, even if it meant some measure of symbolic held accountability for Biden. The stakes are just too high, we cannot allow a deeply fascist Republican party to gain control before we fix our democracy. I'm not trying to say it's Right and Good, but the world is messy and complicated and sometimes lesser evils are indeed the lesser evil. It sucks.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 20:16
|
|
|
How are u posted:Would you prefer this to happen? Until we are brave enough as a people to tell the gross fucks on both sides of the aisle to go away, and until we're brave enough to decide that forging a path forward without them is possible, we will always be under threat of a slightly less or slightly more repugnant group of people taking control. Let's be open about what the stakes are: the balkanization of the United States due to armed rebellion. That's the catastrophic end state. Everything else can be undone by subsequent congresses of people behaving ethically. If you're saying that you have to choose harm reduction now because you're frightened, you're also saying you believe that there will never be an honest legislature, ever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 20:24
|
|
|
How are u posted:before we fix our democracy. This cannot happen until we are actually capable of holding our elected representatives accountable for their decisions and actions, and that cannot be done until a critical mass of people are willing to withhold their vote for politicians that have crossed the line. If things are so bad that any Democratic loss is enough to bring about real, actual fascism it's already too late, because voting Blue No Matter Who does nothing but give free rein for the Democrats to move to the right, which at some point will ablate enough left and liberal support that the Republicans will win handily anyway (2022, more than likely). There's nothing to be done and it's just a matter of if the system collapses now or 2-4 years from now, because there's no positive influence that can be exerted towards preserving democracy. If a rapist can get elected because the other side's rapist has raped more often, you'll never get to a point where you can have a system that excludes rapists (or racists, or war-mongers, etc). Eventually you'll get to a point where people who don't want to vote for rapists will get fed up and you'll get your nightmare option anyway. This idea that we're on the brink of total damnation unless we vote for a rapist -- as well as the fiction that in voting for a rapist you have a hand in saving the lives of hundreds of thousands (ffs!) -- results in, as we can clearly see, the highest seats of power infested with rapists. If you don't want to be lead by a rapist &c., you shouldn't vote for one. Until you can act on that conviction, things are never going to get any meaningfully better. There's no mechanism for them to do so otherwise. Joe Biden has not been, and cannot be, "pushed left", nor can he be made to account for his rape or rapes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 21:11
|
|
|
John_A_Tallon posted:Until we are brave enough as a people to tell the gross fucks on both sides of the aisle to go away, and until we're brave enough to decide that forging a path forward without them is possible, we will always be under threat of a slightly less or slightly more repugnant group of people taking control. Yeah I'm not as compelled by some idea of "being brave" because, as far as I can tell from the reality that I exist in right now today, if we end up with a Republican House and Senate in 2022 they will give the Presidential election in 2024 away to the Republican no matter what. They would have done so in 2020 if they had had the power and ability. It is crystal clear. That's an existential threat to democracy itself. I understand that you are frustrated that every election is "the most important election of our lives!" and kind of sympathize. But, I mean, the facts are the facts at least as far I see them. For me its not about "being brave" its about wanting to keep living in a democracy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 21:12
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:If a rapist can get elected because the other side's rapist has raped more often, you'll never get to a point where you can have a system that excludes rapists (or racists, or war-mongers, etc). That's not why I voted for Joe Biden. Him being accused of rape had nothing to do with my decision in the voting booth on November 4th. I was not tallying up rape accusations in my head and seeing who came out with fewer. I wasn't thinking "who is a better person? Trump, or Biden?". More than anything else I voted for him because Trump had to go because, as was born out in the months following the election, the Republicans are fascists who want to literally end democracy in the United States. That's existential, and takes precedence over anything else, for me. e: Biden's rape accusation was something I considered in the Primary, where I had already been a supporter of Bernie and Liz, but it certainly cemented my support for them. How are u fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Feb 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 21:16
|
|
|
How are u posted:For me its not about "being brave" its about wanting to keep living in a democracy. That ship is sailed. If you have to keep voting for the same party no matter what, then you already don't live in a democracy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 21:28
|
|
|
How are u posted:Yeah I'm not as compelled by some idea of "being brave" because, as far as I can tell from the reality that I exist in right now today, if we end up with a Republican House and Senate in 2022 they will give the Presidential election in 2024 away to the Republican no matter what. They would have done so in 2020 if they had had the power and ability. It is crystal clear. That's an existential threat to democracy itself. Democracies require maintenance. We've deferred and deferred and we are at the point where if we put it off any further we will not have a democracy anyway. The system as it stands is a practical oligarchy and that will not be addressed by either the immoral people you're voting for out of fear, or the immoral people you're effectively casting your vote against. What you are actually arguing for is the idea that there are some masters you find less intolerable than others, because they allow you to continue to believe in the fiction that once they're in office they have any accountability to the people. The facts are that you are scared of the consequences of having to perform maintenance. There will be an uncomfortable period where one party "wins big" with a non-plurality of votes because of "defectors" who recognize that neither side will move in a desirable direction until they are forced to by being punished for choosing to run awful people. Every vote for a person like La Riva is a vote that scares the poo poo out of people like Pelosi and Biden because it's a vote that says, "Your time is done." I understand you're a coward. You can choose not to be.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 21:29
|
|
|
How are u posted:More than anything else I voted for him because Trump had to go because, as was born out in the months following the election, the Republicans are fascists who want to literally end democracy in the United States. That's existential, and takes precedence over anything else, for me. Replace "rapist" with whatever you want, but it doesn't change any of the logic. My point is that if the Republicans are all actual fascists and do actually want to meaningfully end democracy in the United States and 1/6 was a for-real fascist coup attempt the game's already over and by voting for Democrats you're just delaying the inevitable. There's no pressure on the right for Republicans to become not fascists. There's no pressure from the Democratic voter base in any direction. There's pressure from the Republican voter base for the Democrats to go right, because their voters who think like you do will vote for them anyway, and they will have to try and capture R voters to make up for the people that are (correctly!) giving up on the Democrats as vehicles of any meaningful change in their lives. They're not really going to capture many R voters (see Trump's popularity among Republicans), and so you'll just lose more and more D voters until the Republicans can win handily anyway. The only way you can exert pressure on the Democrats with your vote is by withholding it when they field an unacceptable candidate. If you can't do that the Republicans will inevitably win eventually. You get your fascism tomorrow or next week, Nancy Pelosi isn't suddenly going to become a socialist if Biden wins a second term. There's no way out. This is all, of course, predicated on the assumptions you're making about Trump being a uniquely evil historical aberration and 1/6 being an actual, manifest threat to our democracy instead of a totally unambiguous and blatant example of our institutions already having failed on almost every level and our entire political sphere being entirely hollow and sterile. Which is also exactly what the Democrats have been shouting from the rooftops because it is the only way they're going to get you to continue to vote for the blue rapist no matter who. Pentecoastal Elites fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Feb 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 21:36
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:My point is that if the Republicans are all actual fascists and do actually want to meaningfully end democracy in the United States and 1/6 was a for-real fascist coup attempt the game's already over and by voting for Democrats you're just delaying the inevitable. I strongly disagree on this point. Utterly disagree. I think you can see how we can come to very different conclusions based off this disagreement. How are u fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Feb 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 21:41
|
|
|
John_A_Tallon posted:Democracies require maintenance. We've deferred and deferred and we are at the point where if we put it off any further we will not have a democracy anyway. The system as it stands is a practical oligarchy and that will not be addressed by either the immoral people you're voting for out of fear, or the immoral people you're effectively casting your vote against. This is a pretty condescending post with a great parting shot, but I do want to respond to the fact that you're calling the end of American democracy and possible civil war "performing maintenance" and I think that's pretty hosed up. I do not want to live through something like that if it is avoidable, and I believe it is very avoidable. I think you're really underselling the dire consequences of living in a fascist dictatorship run by Trump Republicans.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 21:44
|
|
|
How are u posted:I strongly disagree on this point. Utterly disagree. I think you can see how we can come to very different conclusions based off this disagreement. I have provided an argument as to why I think that voting blue no matter who puts no directional pressure on the democrats and, instead, drives them right which leads inexorably to more republican wins. Can you give me an alternate mechanism that I'm not seeing?
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 21:47
|
|
|
Pentecoastal Elites posted:I have provided an argument as to why I think that voting blue no matter who puts no directional pressure on the democrats and, instead, drives them right which leads inexorably to more republican wins. Can you give me an alternate mechanism that I'm not seeing? I think we've all had the debate over the efficacy of incrementalism enough over the last few years that I can avoid hashing the same arguments out again in this thread. I've probably already diverted the talk from sexual assault in politics enough, and for that I'm sorry.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 21:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 16:42 |
|
|
CYBEReris posted:So, correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that anyone who has children without going through the massive, often discriminatory, hoops to adopt is not just equally as ethically questionable but -more- ethically questionable than someone who provides material support in the process of electing a rapist to one of the most powerful seats in the world? I said those who willingly have kids (as in not oops baby's). The ethical impact of having children in this day in age as a 'choice' is far more of an ethical quandary than given the chance of voting for a man who was not my first choice for a host of reasons. But fundamentally Biden was a better leader to get us out of our current crisis. Compared to voting for a man who was a moron but wanted to dismantle democracy, with the deaths of hundreds of thousands of our fellow citizen's on his hands. That was the choice we were given in the general. And I'm not saying adoption is perfect. Of course that system needs to be fixed too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 25, 2021 21:55
|
|