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Groke posted:...because the Ottomans had the "City of the World's Desire" mission? City was named Constantinople all through the life of the Ottoman Empire. The name Istanbul comes from a popular nickname for the city, of Greek origin, which means something to the tune of "in the city". Throughout the Ottoman period though the official name was Constantinople (or rather the Arabic/Persia/Ottoman Turkish variant "Konstantiniye*"), in everyday speech it would have been referred to as Istanbul. I don't believe it was officially changed to Istanbul until the '30s. *Just the same thing in a different language, if I could strangle everyone responsible for putting in "cultural names" for titles, provinces and characters in paradox game mods rather than just using the English version, I could. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Nov 28, 2018 |
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Nov 28, 2018 15:35
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Randarkman posted:City was named Constantinople all through the life of the Ottoman Empire. The name Istanbul comes from a popular nickname for the city, of Greek origin, which means something to the tune of "in the city". Throughout the Ottoman period though the official name was Constantinople (or rather the Arabic/Persia/Ottoman Turkish variant "Konstantiniye"), in everyday speech it would have been referred to as Istanbul.
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Nov 28, 2018 15:46
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It's still Mikligarður to me
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Nov 28, 2018 15:54
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Randarkman posted:*Just the same thing in a different language, if I could strangle everyone responsible for putting in "cultural names" for titles, provinces and characters in paradox game mods rather than just using the English version, I could. CK2 has those as is
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Nov 28, 2018 15:57
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Ras Het posted:CK2 has those as is Yeah, you're right. I always turn off Svidjod. I don't think those have always been there though, and feel as it them being added in reflects the appeal it has to many of their fans, it's never gotten as bad as the dark land of Rome Total War *historically accurate* realism mods though. How I relished recruiting "L3tb'T" light skirmishers from from my Aegyptioi subjects when playing the Ptolemaioi. FreudianSlippers posted:It's still Mikligarður to me We're getting off topic talking about map games, but what I would be in favor of is for most titles, provinces and character names to be rendered in a language appropriate to the culture you are playing in Paradox games. So if you were playing Norse Constantinople would be Miklagard (or what you wrote), if you were playing a Western Christian, the Byzantine Empire would be called the "Kingdom of the Greeks", or "Rum" if you were playing as Muslims and so on. Though that would be a lot of work to implement and likely make stuff a little confusing to people who aren't familiar with this beforehand. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Nov 28, 2018 |
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Nov 28, 2018 16:12
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Randarkman posted:City was named Constantinople all through the life of the Ottoman Empire. The name Istanbul comes from a popular nickname for the city, of Greek origin, which means something to the tune of "in the city". Throughout the Ottoman period though the official name was Constantinople (or rather the Arabic/Persia/Ottoman Turkish variant "Konstantiniye*"), in everyday speech it would have been referred to as Istanbul. im sorry but Shahanshah Shahjahan is going nowhere
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Nov 28, 2018 16:14
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Randarkman posted:We're getting off topic talking about map games, but what I would be in favor of is for most titles, provinces and character names to be rendered in a language appropriate to the culture you are playing in Paradox games. So if you were playing Norse Constantinople would be Miklagard (or what you wrote), if you were playing a Western Christian, the Byzantine Empire would be called the "Kingdom of the Greeks", or "Rum" if you were playing as Muslims and so on. I just want them to be called whatever the most common term for them is today, so that by getting to learn those I actually get something beneficial out of the incredible amount of wasted time spent playing those games.
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Nov 28, 2018 17:06
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Koramei posted:I just want them to be called whatever the most common term for them is today, so that by getting to learn those I actually get something beneficial out of the incredible amount of wasted time spent playing those games. 
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Nov 28, 2018 17:13
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The Paradox game "native" names of regions are often anachronistically modern, I don't like them either.
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Nov 28, 2018 17:57
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Randarkman posted:Yeah, you're right. I always turn off Svidjod. I don't think those have always been there though, and feel as it them being added in reflects the appeal it has to many of their fans, it's never gotten as bad as the dark land of Rome Total War *historically accurate* realism mods though. How I relished recruiting "L3tb'T" light skirmishers from from my Aegyptioi subjects when playing the Ptolemaioi. I’m sure it’ll be great fun for westerners playing as asian powers if they implement that. Oh no, Igirisu is at war with Chugoku and trying to establish a colony, but Oranda is supporting the Chugokuans!
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Nov 28, 2018 18:54
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It would be cool to learn a bunch of exonyms for your own country, unless you come from a boring settler colony like Canada with too little history for the names to have any variation 
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Nov 28, 2018 19:21
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Mameluke posted:It would be cool to learn a bunch of exonyms for your own country, unless you come from a boring settler colony like Canada with too little history for the names to have any variation We call you Känädä
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Nov 28, 2018 19:26
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I’m sure it’ll be great fun for westerners playing as asian powers if they implement that. Oh no, Igirisu is at war with Chugoku and trying to establish a colony, but Oranda is supporting the Chugokuans! Eh, it would just be a fun toggleable gimmick thing as far I imagine. A gimmick that would probably require much more work than justifies doing it. Mameluke posted:It would be cool to learn a bunch of exonyms for your own country, unless you come from a boring settler colony like Canada with too little history for the names to have any variation My personal favorite exonym is the one that most Slavic languages have for Germans, which is usually some variation of "nemetski" which literally derives from the word for "mute", as in Germans are people who cannot speak, hence they are mute. That one feels like it's incredibly old and I kind of love it. It's kind of similar to "barbarian" and other words to mean foreigners who don't speak your language, it just seems to take it a step further. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Nov 28, 2018 |
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Nov 28, 2018 20:00
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Randarkman posted:My personal favorite exonym is the one that most Slavic languages have for Germans, which is usually some variation of "nemetski" which literally derives from the word for "mute", as in Germans are people who cannot speak, hence they are mute. That one feels like it's incredibly old and I kind of love it. It's kind of similar to "barbarian" and other words to mean foreigners who don't speak your language, it just seems to take it a step further. Fun fact: the germanic word for "foreigner who doesn't speak our language" is "welsh". 
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Nov 29, 2018 04:24
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I like how despite the cultural title thing, it still gets called "Byzantium" instead of Roman Empire.
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Nov 29, 2018 04:33
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Byzantine posted:I like how despite the cultural title thing, it still gets called "Byzantium" instead of Roman Empire. Western European scholars in the last couple 100 years had an enormous psuedo-nationalist boner for the Roman Empire as their thing that "made them" and didn't give a rats rear end what happened with any other pieces of it after the fall of the western half. So you get nicknames that became practically the main used name for something that is literally just the "Eastern Roman Empire".
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Nov 29, 2018 06:11
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Grape posted:Western European scholars in the last couple 100 years had an enormous psuedo-nationalist boner for the Roman Empire as their thing that "made them" and didn't give a rats rear end what happened with any other pieces of it after the fall of the western half. So you get nicknames that became practically the main used name for something that is literally just the "Eastern Roman Empire". Well, it's short and catchy and it's a somewhat useful label to put on the later part of the Empire's history when it became increasingly Greek in character (well, officially at least, the East was always Greek in day to day language) and increasingly religiously separate from the West. Also, nowadays I would say that there's lots of people, on the internet at least, who have a pseudo-nationalist/islamophobic boner for Byzantium as the "bulwark against the hordes of Islam".
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Nov 29, 2018 07:36
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Pilsener Laken.
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Nov 29, 2018 09:09
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Randarkman posted:Well, it's short and catchy and it's a somewhat useful label to put on the later part of the Empire's history when it became increasingly Greek in character (well, officially at least, the East was always Greek in day to day language) and increasingly religiously separate from the West. Yeah, I don't care what anyone says, if you don't speak Latin and you're not centered on Rome you're not the Roman Empire.
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Nov 29, 2018 12:54
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Phlegmish posted:Yeah, I don't care what anyone says, if you don't speak Latin and you're not centered on Rome you're not the Roman Empire. It's rare to see someone argue the Roman Empire ended in 286, but I guess you have a point.
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Nov 29, 2018 14:54
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[returning from Wikipedia] Milan? gently caress outta here, that's more like a Milanese Empire. They got one out of two, that's still more than can be said of the Byzantines
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Nov 29, 2018 15:01
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dublish posted:It's rare to see someone argue the Roman Empire ended in 286, but I guess you have a point. Tough but fair. e: though I'm a fan of the argument that the Roman Empire ended in 1922. After all, Suleiman, when he conquered Constantinople in 1453, declared himself Caesar of Rome. Count Roland fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 15:20
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You know that Roman emperors were building monuments in the Roman Forum in the 7th century, right? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Column_of_Phocas Also same century Roman emperors were having popes arrested and dragged off to Crimea: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Martin_I Hell, in the 7th century a Roman Emperor visited Rome while campaigning in Italy and decided to move the capital from Constantinople to Syracuse, which caused him to be assassinated with a bucket. The Romans weren't kicked out of Italy until 1071: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catepanate_of_Italy
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Nov 29, 2018 15:25
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Golbez posted:I really like this; it would be nice, however, if instead of labeling countries - most of which didn't exist back then - it labeled the ports they were going to. I assume the one on the west coast is Vancouver, but I didn't expect Walvis Bay to be such a big port. Pages late but almost certainly Victoria (CFB Esquimalt) which was the HQ of the pacific fleet for a good while and the main canadian naval base in the area. Vancouver was still kinda podunk during the great war. The area really got its start due to the Crimean war. What the hell does a canadian city on the west coast have to do with Crimea? Well during the war the british launched a disastrous attack on the pacific coast of Russia. The british vastly outnumbered the Russian defenders and the plan was for them to sweep in, defeat the tiny local fleet, and bombard/invade the local fort. The problem was the commander of the whole operation decided to kill himself like hours before the attack, sending the whole plan into chaos and a series of disastrous calls led to a humiliating defeat for the British. They had huge numbers of wounded and needed a place to retreat and lick their wounds, so relocated the whole fleet to Victoria and established a large naval hospital there for the survivors to heal up. There was already a naval base there, but the hospital and remnants of the pacific fleet relocating there really put it on the map.  I've done a bunch of work here. Huge shipyards/navy bases are cool places. This particular base has a ton of history with some surviving buildings/infrastructure from the crimean war period. The graving dock was built in the 20's and was one of the biggest in the world at the time, here's a cool drone video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmuKTOmt0pw Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 18:41
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Phlegmish posted:Yeah, I don't care what anyone says, if you don't speak Latin and you're not centered on Rome you're not the Roman Empire. Just because "Byzantium" can be useful and catchy doesn't mean it wasn't the Roman Empire you know.
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Nov 29, 2018 19:50
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Phlegmish posted:[returning from Wikipedia] Milan? gently caress outta here, that's more like a Milanese Empire. I mean the upper class spoke Greek as a second language since they were a republic. If you were anyone you had a Greek slave to teach your kids how to speak a more civilized language than the base and barbaric Latin that was their mother tongue. On the flipside a lot of Greeks called themselves Romans well into the 19th century. FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 19:51
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FreudianSlippers posted:I mean the upper class spoke Greek as a second language since they were a republic. If you were anyone you had a Greek slave to teach your kids how to speak a more civilized language than the base and barbaric Latin that was their mother tongue. Well, until the mid-late republic writers, probably Cicero in particular (as well as others), kind of turned Latin into a "civilized language" moulded on the language of Greek literature. By the time the republic ended, Latin was not in any way considered barbaric compared to Greek (by Greeks maybe, though while the Romans respected Greek literature and culture they had alot of disdain for them on most other grounds). You'd still want to know Greek though, particularly if you were of the upper class because it still had enormous status to it, and Greek was a more widespread Lingua Franca throughout much of Roman history anyway.
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Nov 29, 2018 20:08
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FreudianSlippers posted:On the flipside a lot of Greeks called themselves Romans well into the 19th century. What's the story for this one?
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Nov 29, 2018 20:25
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FreudianSlippers posted:On the flipside a lot of Greeks called themselves Romans well into the 19th century. Romaioi was the standard term for what we call Greeks today until the rise of modern nationalism and their independence war against the Ottomans, and the language was called Romaiika. Hellene had not been used for many many centuries, except a brief period you find some use of it at the very end of the empire, when the Romans offered to officially give up being Roman to the HRE and call themselves Hellenes in exchange for aid against the Turks. The concept of "Greeks" that exists today is from the 1800s. It did not exist prior to that. The ancient version has very little connection to the modern, and there was no concept of Greek identity in the Eastern Roman Empire. Latin Christian countries did use the term Greek as an intentional slur and insult against them, though. The standard name of the empire was Romania. Unfortunately using that today would be confusing because SOMEONE else decided to use it. 
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Nov 29, 2018 20:31
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Grand Fromage posted:
Yes, and the Latin Christian countries operated with their own Roman Empire successors as well in the Holy Roman Empire and the legacy of Charlemagne, and, arguably more important, in the Papacy. The Byzantines were decidedly not above using intentional slurs when addressing these either or even really giving them a modicum of respect.
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Nov 29, 2018 20:56
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Randarkman posted:Yes, and the Latin Christian countries operated with their own Roman Empire successors as well in the Holy Roman Empire and the legacy of Charlemagne, and, arguably more important, in the Papacy. The Byzantines were decidedly not above using intentional slurs when addressing these either or even really giving them a modicum of respect. Why would you give respect to barbarians and usurpers? 
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Nov 29, 2018 21:00
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Grand Fromage posted:Why would you give respect to barbarians and usurpers? That's the attitude that causes all your shipping and commerce to end up controlled by Italians and for your capital to be conquered and burned by Crusaders.
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Nov 29, 2018 21:03
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Randarkman posted:That's the attitude that causes all your shipping and commerce to end up controlled by Italians and for your capital to be conquered and burned by Crusaders. Barbaric behavior indeed. If you'd just accept the proper order of things and respect the authority of the Roman Emperor this would all work better.
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Nov 29, 2018 21:13
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The infidel Turks do not hate us, for they do not fear us, whereas the schismatic Greeks fear and hate us with all their hearts.
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Nov 29, 2018 21:16
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Baronjutter posted:Pages late but almost certainly Victoria (CFB Esquimalt) which was the HQ of the pacific fleet for a good while and the main canadian naval base in the area. Vancouver was still kinda podunk during the great war. I do quite a bit of work for EGD so was familiar with it, but had no idea that it had history going all the way back to the Crimean War. Props for the history lesson. 
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Nov 29, 2018 21:56
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I do get kind of annoyed when people act like the East was The One True Rome and the West descended into medieval barbarism in 476. I think the claim that France, Spain, Italy, and even, yes the HRE/Germany are "successors" of Rome has merit. They continued doing things largely as had been done in 475 and they certainly didn't abandon the idea of there being a legitimate Emperor of Rome.
Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 22:13
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I do get kind of annoyed when people act like the East was The One True Rome and the West descended into medieval barbarism in 476. I think the claim that France, Spain, Italy, and even, yes the HRE/Germany are "successors" of Rome has merit. They continued doing things largely as had been done in 475 and they certainly didn't abandon the idea of there being a legitimate Emperor of Rome. Yeah. For instance Odoacer's Italian kingdom and the later Ostrogoths, particularly Theoderic, probably promoted Roman culture in Italy to a much greater degree than many of the later Roman Emperors did and were generally pretty successful at establishing a degree of political stability and security. They could probably have taken the Imperial title (and certainly did things associated with Emperors) but didn't out of deference to the Eastern Emperors (IIRC both Odoacer and Theoderic had started in Byzantine service and upheld that as rulers of Italy, at least formally). The later Byzantine invasion of Italy which destroyed the Ostrogothic kingdom, but failed to establish permanent conquest outside of the south, probably did way more damage to Italy and the city of Rome than the sack of 476 and the Barbarian migrations (and it seems that population decline which resulted in the decline of urban life and the abandonment of many cities began much earlier, in the 3rd century, probably as a result of climate change and an increase in epidemic diseases). Randarkman fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Nov 29, 2018 |
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Nov 29, 2018 22:49
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Torsten Jacobsen's "The Gothic War" really drives home just how horrible Justinian's attempt at retaking Italy was. A complete self-own.
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Nov 29, 2018 22:56
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Seriously though, Justinian is one of the biggest chucklefucks in the history and got the reputation he did by coasting along other people's abilities, particularly Theodora and Belisarius. Give me Basil II any day of the week.
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Nov 29, 2018 23:00
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Randarkman posted:The later Byzantine invasion of Italy which destroyed the Ostrogothic kingdom, but failed to establish permanent conquest outside of the south, probably did way more damage to Italy and the city of Rome than the sack of 476 and the Barbarian migrations No probably, it was an apocalyptic war and then followed right up on with the Plague of Justinian. It took Italy 500 years to recover from that combo.
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Nov 29, 2018 23:05
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