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Paper Jam Dipper posted:His point falls right apart when he tries to pretend Bischoff was ripping the Stone Cold gimmick off. poo poo, I must be arguing in a different time-space continuum than another version of myself because I don't recall saying that at all.
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Dec 29, 2012 21:57
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Saul Goode posted:Do you seriously think that when Bill Goldberg was coming through the WCW Power Plant, they looked at him independently and said, "Yes, plain black trunks and a gimmickless look is exactly what this guy needs"? From Eric Bischoff, who when he fired Steve Austin literally told him that "a guy in black trunks and boots will never get over"? (And no, before you ask, I don't have the source for that quote directly to hand but it was pretty wide-spread around the time that Austin got his fed-exed pink slip from WCW. I'm sure the Meltz would be able to verify if anyone's that inclined to ask.) I realize you said a lot of words, but are you seriously trying to argue that the black trunks had dick all to do with Austin's character? The default wrestling attire #4? The black trunks had so little to do with Austin's character and Austin getting over, it's almost hilarious to have to point it out. Do you have any idea how many guys in wrestling, past present and future have wrestled in simple black trunks? I am not trying to belittle you here, but this literally sounds like an argument a grade 8 kid who watched Raw instead of Nitro would make in 1998 in an attempt to bash WCW. JR probably loving hated Goldberg and saw him as a knockoff because WCW shitcanned him. Would you give any credit to a company who shitcanned you? I wouldn't. In life, everyone thinks they're the good guy, including guys in wrestling like JR. JR probably thought WCW was run by unoriginal assholes because from his perspective you have to be an rear end in a top hat to fire the good guy. If I get fired from a Denny's, and you ask me after what the best Denny's in town is, I'm sure as hell not going to say the one that fired me. Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Dec 29, 2012 |
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Dec 29, 2012 22:03
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Zack_Gochuck posted:JR probably loving hated Goldberg and saw him as a knockoff because WCW shitcanned him. Jim Ross was actually good friends with Goldberg back from his Atlanta Falcon days and got really sour with the WWE on how they handled Goldberg when they had him. He did nothing but bitch and complain about how they used him. If anything, he probably wished Goldberg went to the TRAXX facility instead of the Power Plant.
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Dec 29, 2012 22:07
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Austin got over because he was the total package of in-ring, charisma, and interviews with an everyman raging against the machine character at the perfect time to be such. I don't think his trunks being black or navy blue or trunks instead of long tights or whatnot mattered at all, the point was that he was a brilliant performer playing a realistic character at a time when the fans desperately wanted more of those instead of WWF New Generation cartoons.
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Dec 29, 2012 22:15
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I don't mean JR hated Goldberg on a personal level. All I'm saying is this is a company that fired JR, of course he's going to be quicker to side with the company he works for than the company that fired him. Anyone would. I'm not going to change my opinion on Goldberg because someone who got fired by the guys who created Goldberg says Goldberg was inspired by a character that was on his current employer's program. Again, if Denny's fired me and I got a job at iHop, of course I'd tell everyone that iHop has a better menu. I wouldn't be a good employee if I didn't. I mean, that's really the sticking point for me here. Who knows? Maybe their original intention was to create a Stone Cold knockoff, but just because a guy who worked for the competition after WCW shitcanned him thinks it, doesn't make it so. Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Dec 29, 2012 |
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Dec 29, 2012 22:18
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Oh for crying out loud. Yes their characters took different paths. But Austin was already in the process of becoming a megastar by the end of WM13. Austin 3:16 shirts were everywhere. If you don't believe Bischoff wasn't petty enough to make his own version of a bald badass in black trunks and a goatee I don't know what to tell you. I don't think anyone's argueing that they are the same character, but when one company's hottest guy is a bald guy in black trunks and the other company suddenly monster pushes a bald guy in black trunks, it's not too much of a stretch to think someone was trying to one up the other, which back in those days was happening every week. There was even a point where Leno on the Tonight Show asked Goldberg to his face if he was a Stone Cold ripoff.
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Dec 29, 2012 22:24
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Zack_Gochuck posted:I realize you said a lot of words, but are you seriously trying to argue that the black trunks had dick all to do with Austin's character? The default wrestling attire #4? The black trunks had so little to do with Austin's character and Austin getting over, it's almost hilarious to have to point it out. Do you have any idea how many guys in wrestling, past present and future have wrestled in simple black trunks? I am not trying to belittle you here, but this literally sounds like an argument a grade 8 kid who watched Raw instead of Nitro would make in 1998 in an attempt to bash WCW. I have no idea where you got any of that from. "I realise you said a lot of words". What does that even mean? You didn't read what I said because there were too many words? Because what you've gone ranting about looks like you haven't read anything beyond the first sentence. Here's the shortened version, just so we're all on the same page: 1. In 1995, when he fired Steve Austin, Eric Bischoff did not think that a guy who wore generic black wrestling attire would get over, i.e. he thought that wrestlers needed a marketable "look". This has been a fairly common thought process in modern wrestling history. 2. A powerful new wrestler came through the WCW Power Plant in 1997 and he sort of looked like the WWF's top star at the time, being a bald white guy with a goatee. Only a couple of years after claiming that someone with Austin's attire would not get over, Bischoff allowed Bill Goldberg to debut with the exact same attire and immediately pushed him to the moon. If you can't see any connection there then I really don't give a poo poo, call me an idiot however many times you want. Tr33 posted:Oh for crying out loud. Yes their characters took different paths. But Austin was already in the process of becoming a megastar by the end of WM13. Austin 3:16 shirts were everywhere. If you don't believe Bischoff wasn't petty enough to make his own version of a bald badass in black trunks and a goatee I don't know what to tell you. I don't think anyone's argueing that they are the same character, but when one company's hottest guy is a bald guy in black trunks and the other company suddenly monster pushes a bald guy in black trunks, it's not too much of a stretch to think someone was trying to one up the other, which back in those days was happening every week. There was even a point where Leno on the Tonight Show asked Goldberg to his face if he was a Stone Cold ripoff. Holy poo poo, thank you. I thought I must have been going mad...
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Dec 29, 2012 22:32
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1.) Stunning Steve Austin never wore generic black gear like Stone Cold Steve Austin did. Austin wore flashy vests and used patterned trunks in WCW. He also wasn't bald and didn't always have facial hair. 2.) Goldberg was much more of a ripoff of Ken Shamrock (and Shamrock actually wore gear much more similar to Goldberg than Austin did) and Taz than Steve Austin. 3.) The "Goldberg is an Austin ripoff" was a lame newsboard meme in 1998 so people who were around at that time are more apt to just totally handwave it.
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Dec 29, 2012 22:37
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Fairly sure Goldberg would have been pushed to the moon regardless. Dude's built like gently caress, intense and was friends with all the right people in WCW.
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Dec 29, 2012 23:02
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Tr33 posted:Oh for crying out loud. Yes their characters took different paths. But Austin was already in the process of becoming a megastar by the end of WM13. Austin 3:16 shirts were everywhere. If you don't believe Bischoff wasn't petty enough to make his own version of a bald badass in black trunks and a goatee I don't know what to tell you. I don't think anyone's argueing that they are the same character, but when one company's hottest guy is a bald guy in black trunks and the other company suddenly monster pushes a bald guy in black trunks, it's not too much of a stretch to think someone was trying to one up the other, which back in those days was happening every week. There was even a point where Leno on the Tonight Show asked Goldberg to his face if he was a Stone Cold ripoff. The path of the characters is basically the only evidence we have to go on other than the participants saying it isn't true. If WCW wanted an Austin clone, they would try and push him like Steve Austin. They would make him look as much like Austin as possible. But they didn't. They tried to make him look like a shootfighter in generic black tights. They had him squash people and never talk. They gave him an entrance like a boxer. His presentation, his push and his style were all very much unlike Steve Austin. In the end he was bald, he had a goatee and he wore black trunks. EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT HIM WAS DIFFERENT FROM STEVE AUSTIN. They even have different body types. On top of that, Goldberg's push started very naturally. He mostly wrestled on Saturday Night and Worldwide at first. He had low to mid card opponents and they did not plan on pushing him to the moon at first. They didn't have long term plans other than "winning streak" which was kind of a happy accident at first. If they switched up his look after the monster push began to be more like Austin you'd have a point. But they didn't, they debuted him like a lot of WCW undercard guys in terms of gear. In fact, once they started to push him to the moon they made him less like Steve Austin with things like his entrance.
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Dec 29, 2012 23:59
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Here is Bill Goldberg's first WCW Nitro match. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YddE2VJl-O0 Goldberg simply wore the same trunks. He wasn't wearing the same knee pads, had no elbow pads and wore fingerless gloves. It was actually a pretty cool debut. If Goldberg had custom tights, it would have really ruined the idea of him being some unknown newcomer. I wouldn't be surprised if they had plans to give him different trunks at some point but realized it was a great look for him. No nonsense.
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Dec 30, 2012 00:08
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MassRayPer posted:In the end he was bald, he had a goatee and he wore black trunks. Those three things are literally all that matters for the sake of this argument. It's like if TNA debuted a new wrestler who was roided up with a crewcut and a doofus face and they had him wear jorts. Despite having no other similarities to John Cena in mannerism or push, the very fact that he's wearing jorts would be a visual reminder of the biggest star from the rival company and it would be deliberately done because of the audience's familiarity with John Cena. Especially if whichever idiot is currently running TNA was already on record as having said that jorts are dumb and they'd never push anyone who wore them. Whether or not Goldberg would have made it without the look that he had is conjecture (personally I don't think he would have), but the fact that he was given the attire that he had due to Steve Austin should be undeniable.
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Dec 30, 2012 00:17
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Jorts would be an obvious ripoff because John Cena is pretty much the only dude that wears jorts. Lots of dudes wear solid color tights. As has been noted repeatedly, Goldberg's look was pretty obviously styled after Ken Shamrock and not Austin.
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Dec 30, 2012 00:23
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After how many times I got into this argument 15 years you would think I could remember the giant list of wrestlers who wear black trunks (some of whom are bald.)
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Dec 30, 2012 00:25
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MassRayPer posted:After how many times I got into this argument 15 years you would think I could remember the giant list of wrestlers who wear black trunks (some of whom are bald.) Takaiwa was a total ripoff of Austin.
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Dec 30, 2012 00:26
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Saul Goode posted:Whether or not Goldberg would have made it without the look that he had is conjecture (personally I don't think he would have), but the fact that he was given the attire that he had due to Steve Austin should be undeniable. But it is deniable. People who were with the company at the time deny it. Goldberg denies it. Austin denies it. Everyone denies it. The thought pattern behind Goldberg wasn't to package him like Steve Austin. The idea was to package him like a shoot fighter with no glitz or glamour. Black tights, black gloves, black boots. The "he was an Austin knock off" narrative was completely shaped by those people who could never credit WCW with their own successes, being either a)a WWF fan during the wars or B) working for the WWF or WWE and having the belief that WCW being successful means that they were being unsuccessful. Thats not to say WCW didn't try to recreate certain WWF guys. Booker T was repackaged by Russo to be more like the Rock for example. The thing was in this particular case, it was not an intentional move.
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Dec 30, 2012 00:27
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The Big Show spent most of his post-WWECW career trying to evoke Steve Austin because he wore plain black, is bald, and has a goatee
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Dec 30, 2012 00:27
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So did Disco Inferno start using the Chart Buster because he really admired Johnny Ace's work in Japan?
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Dec 30, 2012 00:35
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Saul Goode posted:So did Disco Inferno start using the Chart Buster because he really admired Johnny Ace's work in Japan? What a mark.
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Dec 30, 2012 00:44
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all this complaining about Austin being ripped off while CW Anderson flies under the radar
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Dec 30, 2012 00:50
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Fauxhawk Express posted:What a mark. Disco Inferno had absolutely nothing in common with Steve Austin and he started using a finishing move which is just a seated three-quarter facelock jawbreaker and totally common (in Japan or something), only an idiot would think that he did it because he worked for a petty small-minded company who were obsessed with everything their opposition said and did.
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Dec 30, 2012 00:52
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At the time Goldberg debuted WCW's top active face Lex Luger also wore plain black trunks. Goldberg is physically similar to Luger and they shared pushed football backgrounds. Ergo...
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Dec 30, 2012 00:54
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Saul Goode posted:Disco Inferno had absolutely nothing in common with Steve Austin and he started using a finishing move which is just a seated three-quarter facelock jawbreaker and totally common (in Japan or something), only an idiot would think that he did it because he worked for a petty small-minded company who were obsessed with everything their opposition said and did. You sound pretty bitter bro. I'm pretty sure WCW wrestlers had a lot of control over what moves they used and Disco started using it on his own, same with the Disciple. It wasn't until the Vince Russo era did certain WCW wrestlers like Booker T became a Rock clone. Again, Eric Bischoff wasn't stealing a lot of concepts from the WWF. WCW didn't have an Austin clone or parody. Same can't be said about WWF not having a Goldberg clone or parody.
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Dec 30, 2012 00:55
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Fauxhawk Express posted:Takaiwa was a total ripoff of Austin. Yeah well Takaiwa ripped off Fujiwara 
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Dec 30, 2012 00:59
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jeffersonlives posted:At the time Goldberg debuted WCW's top active face Lex Luger also wore plain black trunks. Goldberg is physically similar to Luger and they shared pushed football backgrounds. Ergo... Meanwhile, Van Hammer captures the rebel spirit of Brian Pillman!
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Dec 30, 2012 01:04
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Saul Goode posted:Disco Inferno had absolutely nothing in common with Steve Austin and he started using a finishing move which is just a seated three-quarter facelock jawbreaker and totally common (in Japan or something), only an idiot would think that he did it because he worked for a petty small-minded company who were obsessed with everything their opposition said and did. What this had to do with Goldberg is a complete mystery to the rest of us. But I supposed you're right. Bald white guy with a goatee in the mid 90s? Plain black trunks? Those looks are so unique and unheard of outside of the Austin character at the time that it had to be a ripoff! Saul Goode posted:only an idiot
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Dec 30, 2012 01:08
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Meanwhile, Van Hammer captures the rebel spirit of Brian Pillman! John Cena is clearly just trying to recapture the popularity and image of Justin Credible.
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Dec 30, 2012 01:10
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To add one more visual similarity, I always noticed that Goldberg and Austin both wore boots that were noticeably shorter than most guy's boots. Most wrestler boots come to somewhere mid-calf, their's stopped short of the calf. Slap some pouches on him and Goldberg looks like a Rob Liefeld drawing of Austin, right down to the weird little feet.
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Dec 30, 2012 01:24
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Perry Normal posted:To add one more visual similarity, I always noticed that Goldberg and Austin both wore boots that were noticeably shorter than most guy's boots. Most wrestler boots come to somewhere mid-calf, their's stopped short of the calf. Bringing Liefeld in is unfair, because you could take absolutely any two people, and Liefeld could make one look like the other with his bizarre art. "You want Randy Orton to look like Jaki Numazawa? Done." On topic of WCW though, after watching some of WCW Saturday Night on the synchtube, I honestly didn't know WCW were as high on Muta as they apparently were. \/\/\/ (e): Yeah, that was a bad example. The world would be a little better if everyone ripped off Fujiwara. Gyro Zeppeli fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Dec 30, 2012 |
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Dec 30, 2012 01:28
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VogeGandire posted:Yeah well Takaiwa ripped off Fujiwara More wrestlers should rip from Fujiwara.
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Dec 30, 2012 01:29
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Saul Goode posted:Especially if whichever idiot is currently running TNA was already on record as having said that jorts are dumb and they'd never push anyone who wore them. I'd like to go back to this too, because comparing wrestling in 1995 and 1998 are like night and day. In 1995 both WWF and WCW had become weird cartoon worlds with clowns and human sharks running around. Things were much different in 1998 when both promotions were darker and grittier. I think it probably would have been more difficult to market a wrestler in black boots and black trunks in 1995 than in 1998. Especially considering like half of WCWs top draws in 1995 already wore solid colored trunks. It was still a stupid as gently caress move to let Austin go, but I can kind of see how a promoter wouldn't quite know how to market a new guy in black trunks and boots in 1995. He would have been lost in a sea of cartoons in the mid-card, and would have looked like the already established guys in the main event. He even got lost in the shuffle in his black trunks and black boots in the WWF until he started talking. Austin's look is not what set him apart by a long shot. Being Dr. Dave Shutlz is what set him apart.
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Dec 30, 2012 01:38
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If you think Stunning Steve Austin was a generic looking CAW in generic solid black tights you should probably check out, well, anything Stunning Steve Austin did in WCW. That's just not factually accurate.
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Dec 30, 2012 01:40
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jeffersonlives posted:If you think Stunning Steve Austin was a generic looking CAW in generic solid black tights you should probably check out, well, anything Stunning Steve Austin did in WCW. That's just not factually accurate. Oh, I would be the first to admit I haven't seen much pre-1996 WCW. I'm just going by what Saul Goode is attributing to Bischoff regarding black trunks and boots. So I'm guessing Bischoff didn't actually say that or it's been taken out of context over the years in that case. Zack_Gochuck fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Dec 30, 2012 |
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Dec 30, 2012 01:41
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Zack_Gochuck posted:Oh, I would be the first to admit I haven't seen much pre-1996 WCW. I'm just going by what Saul Goode is attributing to Bischoff regarding black trunks and boots. Here's Austin in WCW while with one of the most popular tag teams in WCW at the time, the Hollywood Blondes:  Austin actually didn't wear plain black trunks until he turned into Stone Cold Steve Austin. When he was the Ringmaster, he wore a royal green colour of tights. In ECW he switched between tights and trunks but I recall he had white boots.
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Dec 30, 2012 01:46
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:Here's Austin in WCW while with one of the most popular tag teams in WCW at the time, the Hollywood Blondes: Where does Bischoff's alleged quote come in, then? I'm baffled.
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Dec 30, 2012 01:51
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:Here is Bill Goldberg's first WCW Nitro match. His gear really looks like Dan "The Beast" Severn more than anything else. 
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Dec 30, 2012 01:51
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Zack_Gochuck posted:Where does Bischoff's alleged quote come in, then? I'm baffled. Bischoff gives his side of the story at 15 minutes in here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUdaMiKYMdM
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Dec 30, 2012 02:07
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Perry Normal posted:Bischoff gives his side of the story at 15 minutes in here. I would sincerely take anything Bischoff says with a grain of salt, but I guess that's about as close as we're going to get.
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Dec 30, 2012 02:13
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Zack_Gochuck posted:Where does Bischoff's alleged quote come in, then? I'm baffled. The booker of WCW in 1994 during Austin's big push with the US title after the Blondes were broken up was Ric Flair. Flair put the title on himself as one of his earliest acts, and one of his other major projects was preparing Austin to become the next top guy in the company. Austin was planned to feud with Flair in mid-late 1994 to begin a lengthy reign on top. When Hogan came in, Flair pretty quickly lost his booking power to Kevin Sullivan (with Hogan pulling the strings). Flair's plans were all discarded; Flair turned heel and dropped the title, and Austin was thrown into an even steven feud with another guy being discarded from the main event mix in Ricky Steamboat before being squashed by Jim Duggan. Hogan and Sullivan then brought in all of their friends en masse, which left no room for Austin (who had no great political allies even on his good days) to even have midcard level programs after losing to Duggan, so Austin was more or less used as a name job guy for a few months despite still being paid high level guaranteed money. Then he hurt his knee. The real reason he was fired was because he was turned into a well paid jobber and they had a chance to get out of his contract. I'm sure the Hogan crew didn't see money in him, but it wasn't for a real reason, it was because they didn't see money in anyone who didn't fit into the Vince McMahon 1980s WWF mold. oldfan fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Dec 30, 2012 |
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Dec 30, 2012 02:16
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Zack_Gochuck posted:I would sincerely take anything Bischoff says with a grain of salt, but I guess that's about as close as we're going to get. Oh absolutely. And what even if it's true, his story doesn't necessarily preclude the "saw nothing in him" theory, because if he did see something in him he would have tried to work with him instead of saying "well gently caress this guy, he's fired."
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Dec 30, 2012 02:18
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