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Runcible Cat posted:Numenexit. Numenope
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Nov 27, 2018 03:02
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#Remain holdouts get fewer every year
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Nov 27, 2018 03:47
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Radio! posted:Numenope Numoaners
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Nov 27, 2018 07:30
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The people voted and they chose to invade the Undying Lands.
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Nov 27, 2018 07:36
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Unironically think would be good to kick out all these Numenorean immigrants. They keep killing everyone (and each other) and then wizards move into their ruins and things get even worse.
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Nov 27, 2018 12:27
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sassassin posted:Unironically think would be good to kick out all these Numenorean immigrants. They keep killing everyone (and each other) and then wizards move into their ruins and things get even worse. Nah, we've been ruled from Valinor too long. Time we took our racial sovereignty back! (Oh God, does this mean Rees-Mogg is Sauron? Or is he just some ghastly golem; a mockery of humanity created by Morgoth?)
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Nov 27, 2018 23:44
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Runcible Cat posted:Nah, we've been ruled from Valinor too long. Time we took our racial sovereignty back! He's Saruman. Theresa May is Sauron. Margaret Thatcher is Morgoth.
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Nov 27, 2018 23:54
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That makes John Major Ungoliant.
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Nov 29, 2018 15:46
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I'll take even the most heavy-handed Tolkien references just as a refreshing change from "<X> is Voldemort!!!!!!"
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Nov 29, 2018 16:08
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Kassad posted:He's Saruman. Theresa May is Sauron. Margaret Thatcher is Morgoth. Not possible. That means he would have to have apparently been a good guy at some point.
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Dec 2, 2018 22:16
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Good point.
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Dec 2, 2018 22:24
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Why are the wives of Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion all nameless and unidentifiable in any narrative Tolkien ever wrote? You can claim that’s just old Tollers being indifferent to women as usual, but being involved in the genealogy of important men is practically the only reason he discusses women at all. You can claim he’s going off the wives of the biblical deluge being nameless, but at least they’re there in the text even if their names aren’t — these three are textual nonentities. And the genealogy of the house of the lords of Andunie isn’t just important, it’s part of The genealogy, the pedigree of Luthien. So, what gives? The wives can’t have been deluged because Isildur at least had another kid in Middle-earth. So what’s the cause of their mysterious expurgation? Numenorean lordlings marrying beneath themselves? A family tradition of Ottoman-style concubinage? Cloning?
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Dec 4, 2018 19:14
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skasion posted:Why are the wives of Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion all nameless and unidentifiable in any narrative Tolkien ever wrote? Misogyny. This happens in read world genealogy all the loving time. Women are only ever referred to as Mrs. <husband's first name> <husband's last name> in writing, even in obituaries for their own parents. Often times you'll only have a first name for a wife if any at all. This didn't start changing until like the 50's. When the only line you care about is the male line (for inheritance reasons) women fall by the wayside. In old censuses only men as heads of household were named. Women and children were just enumerated by sex/age. That didn't change until 1850 (in the US).
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Dec 4, 2018 19:39
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Yeah only that’s not how Tolkien generally rolls, as I pointed out. Impressively irrelevant characters like Elenwe or Finduilas of Dol Amroth are noted down all properly for the sake of their notable children, but these enormously important kings of old don’t have so much as a named mother? And it’s not as though all the Numenorean royal women are similarly ignored, one of them (Erendis) is among the most effective characters he ever wrote.
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Dec 4, 2018 19:53
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The real reason is that Tolkien never put nearly as much work into his 2nd age material as he did his 1st age material. If Tolkien had worked on his history of Numenor for as long as he worked on the Silmarillion, there would be tons of Queens and princesses and other women in the narrative. But in truth, most of Tolkiens stuff on Numenor was in the outline phase and wasn't well fleshed out at all.
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Dec 4, 2018 19:58
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skasion posted:Eyes of the Dragon is better than most of what King writes but it’s still very Kingy. The fact that he’s not as dreadful as I don’t know, Brandon Sanderson or whoever is not a great qualification. If you want good fantasies that don’t depend on post-post-Tolkien mass marketing cliches then you should read those fantasies. There’s a lot of them. Virtually anything republished as a Ballantine Adult Fantasy in the late 60s/early 70s is at least going to be free of modern genre self-congratulation, whatever its other flaws. David Lindsay couldn’t freakin’ write and his world makes no sense, but his book is a great book. Its why I'm reading Dunsany's "The King of Elfland's Daughter", and would like to read Eddison's Worm Ouroboros, William Morris' Well At World's End, etc. and they all pre-date The Hobbit by at least a decade, but were brought back by Ballantine in the era you mentioned. I loved Titus Groan/Gormenghast although I know it would drive the average modern fantasy reader insane. If I want more pulpy action, I go for Robert E. Howard or Fritz Leiber. After Tolkien, I tried reading modern fantasy when I was a kid in the 80's and couldn't understand how I could never finish a book. Glen Cook's The Black Company was the only thing I enjoyed since grim dark wasn't a thing yet, and was written by a Vietnam vet, which in itself made perfect sense. I thought maybe that was the way to go with modern fantasy, so I made the mistake of reading ASOIAF. It would be nice to read something similar that is actually finished, so I'm now only interested in Joe Abercrombie as far as modern fantasy. David Lindsay was a gnostic/occultist like many early 20th century sci fi/fantasy/horror, or "weird" authors so Voyage to Arcturus was batshit but insane in a fun way. Those Ballantine books of the 60s and 70s were popular during that era because hippies loved their books as trippy as their music.
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Dec 5, 2018 13:44
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Many Tolkien books are $2.99 in the kindle store, US anyway, for today's daily deal (Dec 8th). Good timing as I am rereading the trilogy and want to get into the rest of it which I haven't read yet. I picked up Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales of Numenor & Middle Earth, Children of Hurin, Beren and Luthien, Fall of Gondolin. I do want to read history of middle earth at some point but this is enough for now and I don't think they have the whole thing on kindle. I only seeThe Book of Lost Tales parts 1 & 2 and I'm pretty sure I have book 1 at my parents house in hardcover somewhere. Maybe his Beowulf is better worth a pickup. I may as well list the rest of his books in the sale. Tales from the Perilous Realm, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fall of Arthur, The Story of Kullervo, The Lay of Aotrou and Itroun, The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun, Letters from Father Christmas. Plus The Hobbit & the trilogy of course.
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Dec 8, 2018 18:24
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History of Middle Earth 3-12 never got a proper etext at all, you’re stuck with shady OCR versions
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Dec 8, 2018 18:45
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Feanor was a good guy. He was right. He made the silmarils and was right to try to get them back because stealing is wrong.
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Dec 9, 2018 06:41
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gently caress Feanor and (most of) his sons. Morgoth is innocent.
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Dec 9, 2018 07:30
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Shibawanko posted:Feanor was a good guy. He was right. He made the silmarils and was right to try to get them back because stealing is wrong. The problem was not that he tried to get them back, it was his oath and what he was willing to do to get them back.
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Dec 9, 2018 07:32
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Should he have made them in the first place?
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Dec 9, 2018 07:35
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Shibawanko posted:Feanor was a good guy. He was right. He made the silmarils and was right to try to get them back because stealing is wrong. Octy posted:gently caress Feanor and (most of) his sons. Morgoth is innocent. I feel like in this case the truth might really be in the middle
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Dec 9, 2018 07:39
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SHISHKABOB posted:Should he have made them in the first place? Yes for they were Beautiful and contained the Light of the Two Trees.
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Dec 9, 2018 07:45
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Because Morgoth’s discordant rebellion against the great music was still part of the greater workings of Eru Illuvatar, everything he did was divinely ordained and cannot be considered wrong. His only mistake was his defying this fact. I am not accepting any criticism of this post.
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Dec 9, 2018 08:52
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Eru cannot fail or be failed he is a gigantic Mary Sue.
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Dec 9, 2018 08:55
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Wrestlepig posted:Because Morgoth’s discordant rebellion against the great music was still part of the greater workings of Eru Illuvatar, everything he did was divinely ordained and cannot be considered wrong. His only mistake was his defying this fact. I am not accepting any criticism of this post. If everything he did was divinely ordained then defying that fact was also ordained and can't be considered a mistake.
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Dec 9, 2018 09:02
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reignonyourparade posted:If everything he did was divinely ordained then defying that fact was also ordained and can't be considered a mistake. you gotta work in a catholic framework not a calvinist framework
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Dec 9, 2018 09:26
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Which part was Morgoth innocent of? Perhaps he did no wrong in trying to defy Iluvatar, by our lights, and I think that's fair to say. But when he is at the point when he starts picking fights with subcreated entities and tormenting, enslaving, mutilating them etc. he had become the bad guys. Did the elves provoke him into justified acts by merely existing?
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Dec 9, 2018 12:00
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I support the reading in which the elves are the most wrong
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Dec 9, 2018 12:51
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reignonyourparade posted:If everything he did was divinely ordained then defying that fact was also ordained and can't be considered a mistake. I always took it as Morgoth was still doing evil and messing up what would be perfect harmony, but Eru was so powerful and creative that he could improvise, not that evil was divinely intended.
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Dec 9, 2018 15:03
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From Ainulindale:quote:And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. This has its origins in a fuller passage from BOLT: quote:Melko shalt see that no theme can be played save it come in the end of Ilúvatar’s self, nor can any alter the music in Ilúvatar’s despite. He that attempts this finds himself in the end but aiding me in devising a thing of still greater grandeur and more complex wonder:–for lo! through Melko have terror as fire, and sorrow like dark waters, wrath like thunder, and evil as far from the light as the depths of the uttermost of the dark places, come into the design that I laid before you. Through him has pain and misery been made in the clash of overwhelming musics; and with confusion of sound have cruelty, and ravening, and darkness, loathly mire and all putrescence of thought or thing, foul mists and violent flame, cold without mercy, been born, and death without hope. Yet is this through him and not by him; and he shall see, and ye all likewise, and even shall those beings, who must now dwell among his evil and endure through Melko misery and sorrow, terror and wickedness, declare in the end that it redoundeth only to my great glory, and doth but make the theme more worth the hearing, Life more worth the living, and the World so much the more wonderful and marvellous, that of all the deeds of Ilúvatar it shall be called his mightiest and his loveliest. Melkor is guilty, but he’s also a fall guy. Eru didn’t desire perfect harmony, he could have had that if he wanted it, but instead he created a being — the most powerful being he created — whose impulses were selfish and destructive and whose potential was all for self-degradation. He did this deliberately with full foreknowledge of the evil Melkor would wreak on others. His justification is that poo poo’s just better that way and nobody wants to hear about a god who sat in the timeless halls all eternity not creating anything.
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Dec 9, 2018 15:15
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Bongo Bill posted:I support the reading in which the elves are the most wrong Numenoreans have to run them close, or are they the Elves fault to begin with?
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Dec 9, 2018 15:47
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I'd put Numenoreans as worse, because for all the faults of the elves, they didn't gently caress up so bad that it required God to personally intervene and literally break the world.
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Dec 9, 2018 15:50
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Eru doesn’t care about elves, they’re for the gods to amuse themselves with
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Dec 9, 2018 16:00
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The explanations for this all have holes in them because it's elves writing down their thoughts on the typical question that left real people tying themselves in knots too: how can evil exist given an omnipotent, benevolent creator? The elven author of the Ainulindale seems to either have dropped the "benevolent" part or just handwaved suffering as "part of god's plan"
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Dec 9, 2018 18:51
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Price you pay for free will baby Eru wants you to suffer, it builds character
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Dec 9, 2018 19:08
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In the later volumes of HoME I recall Tolkien making explicit an idea implicit in the above-quoted passages of the Ainulindale, of Iluvatar-as-author. That Eru created the world primarily as a place where stories worth telling would happen. Suffering exists because it makes for good stories; Melkor exists because stories need villains. What Eru meant in the quoted passage wasn't "you're incapable of doing anything I didn't plan" but "you're incapable of doing anything that doesn't result in a good story." This ultimately falls apart when viewed from the third age where we have at least two examples of Eru saying "uh poo poo I don't want the story to go that way" and directly intervening. If we accept the premise of Iluvatar-as-author then his statement that Melkor can't produce anything that goes against the glory of Eru is clearly untrue bragging--if Melkor's servant goading the Numenoreans into attacking Valinor was part of the story, why did he interfere? And the same with Gandalf's death.
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Dec 9, 2018 19:24
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Without evil nothing happens and you get a statically symmetrical world like the age of the Lamps with just the Valar hanging out on the isle of Almaren in the middle of a circular sea.cheetah7071 posted:In the later volumes of HoME I recall Tolkien making explicit an idea implicit in the above-quoted passages of the Ainulindale, of Iluvatar-as-author. That Eru created the world primarily as a place where stories worth telling would happen. Eru is Toady.
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Dec 9, 2018 19:49
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that’s all wrapped up in the Athrabeth tho, I could basically just post the whole thing butquote:[The ‘Flame Imperishable’ of the Ainulindale] appears to mean the Creative activity of Eru (in some sense distinct from or within Him), by which things could be given a 'real' and independent (though derivative and created) existence. The Flame Imperishable is sent out from Eru, to dwell in the heart of the world, and the world then Is, on the same plane as the Ainur, and they can enter into it. But this is not, of course, the same as the re-entry of Eru to defeat Melkor. It refers rather to the mystery of 'authorship', by which the author, while remaining 'outside' and independent of his work, also 'indwells' in it, on its derivative plane, below that of his own being, as the source and guarantee of its being. Eru isn’t purely transcendent god but is also immanent (the whole plot of LOTR is run by his providence, “you were meant to have the ring, and not by its maker” all the way down to Frodo morally ruining himself to accurse Gollum), he is not bound by any need to let the story work itself out without his interference and can dick around to frustrate Melkor and his servants as he pleases. He just (mostly) doesn’t please, because he’s an incomprehensible void spirit of creation and destruction who nobody else in the story understands (and the guy who understands him best is infamously also the most faineant and passive guy in the story).
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Dec 9, 2018 19:53
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