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Saladman posted:Those time travellers need to hurry up. No. When you are time traveler, you can always procrastinate. Except if you are visiting Pompei, or Tunguska.
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Jun 27, 2019 16:13
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Soviet Commubot posted:The great thing about English is that only the worst shitheads can maintain a prescriptivist attitude whereas a language with artificial bullshit like French breeds them like roaches. Non-native English speakers vastly outnumber native speakers. That does weird things to a language. French is in the same situation, though:  e: also, I always love when "Chinese" is compared with other single languages as if it wasn't a family of related but not mutually intelligible languages. Family Values fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Jun 27, 2019 |
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Jun 27, 2019 17:29
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Jerry Cotton posted:When I took "overly long Latin" (that's what it's called because it was six years instead of five) for the student exam, two points deducted was enough to bump a guy from L to E because it was all fit on the curve. Ten years earlier even I probably would've gotten an L instead of the M I got. L, M and E? What kind of grade system is this?
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Jun 27, 2019 17:59
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Grevling posted:L, M and E? What kind of grade system is this? Laudatur Eximia cum laude approbatur Magna cum laude approbatur Cum laude approbatur LuBenter approbatur Approbatur Improbatur e: E was invented at some point in the late 90s. And apparently nowadays I is divided into I+, I, I-, and I= (what the gently caress) for some loving reason.´ ee: Oh I= is I with two minuses 
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Jun 27, 2019 18:01
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Jerry Cotton posted:Laudatur I see, I've never seen that before. Does Finland still use that system? edit: my bad, the answer is in your post.
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Jun 27, 2019 18:22
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Family Values posted:Non-native English speakers vastly outnumber native speakers. That does weird things to a language. French is in the same situation, though: Also even if by "Chinese" it means "Mandarin" that would indicate that approximately 200 million people in China don't speak Mandarin, at all. Is it really possible that like 15% of Chinese don't speak Mandarin, as neither a first nor learned language? Isn't basically all schooling everywhere in China done in Mandarin? E: Apparently yes, and probably more like 30% given that the number I compared is "worldwide Mandarin speakers" and not "China-only", https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-23975037 That's crazy, I had no idea there were more than a rounding error of people in China under age 50 who didn't speak Mandarin. I figured it would be like only speaking Breton, or only speaking Irish, or Basque, or Kabyle or whatever (where I do imagine it's a rounding-error number of people who grew up in the respective countries who don't speak the language of the people who historically dominated them). Saladman fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jun 27, 2019 |
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Jun 27, 2019 20:01
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Tei posted:Imagine a roman empire time traveler finding that nobody uses Latin anymore, that is a dead language. Greek was the language of the educated anyway.
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Jun 27, 2019 20:26
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Saladman posted:That's crazy, I had no idea there were more than a rounding error of people in China under age 50 who didn't speak Mandarin. I figured it would be like only speaking Breton, or only speaking Irish, or Basque, or Kabyle or whatever (where I do imagine it's a rounding-error number of people who grew up in the respective countries who don't speak the language of the people who historically dominated them). China is pretty big and more diverse than the usual discourse about it would have you think (I'm talking about both the historical narrative promoted by the Chinese government and the discourse in news articles from abroad).
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Jun 27, 2019 20:40
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Half of what currently constitutes the landmass of the state known as "The People's Republic of China" are Han colonial possessions and Beijing didn't build a giant network of concentration camps with the intent of stamping out non-Han culture because the native inhabitants of these regions were already "Chinese"
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Jun 27, 2019 21:04
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Peanut President posted:also wanna meet and not be able to conversate with the <5% of the UK who can't speak english
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Jun 27, 2019 21:16
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Fojar38 posted:Half of what currently constitutes the landmass of the state known as "The People's Republic of China" are Han colonial possessions and Beijing didn't build a giant network of concentration camps with the intent of stamping out non-Han culture because the native inhabitants of these regions were already "Chinese" Even a huge proportion of Han Chinese don't speak Mandarin. You go outside the big cities basically everywhere south of the Yangtze and the language of daily life will not be Mandarin.
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Jun 27, 2019 21:47
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Kassad posted:China is pretty big and more diverse than the usual discourse about it would have you think (I'm talking about both the historical narrative promoted by the Chinese government and the discourse in news articles from abroad). i thought the prc party line was big on there being 56 peoples who are all living in harmony https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH1IDwx-LcU Tree Goat fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jun 27, 2019 |
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Jun 27, 2019 22:10
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Tree Goat posted:i thought the prc party line was big on there being 56 peoples who are all living in harmony Yeah but with the Han Chinese representing 90% of the population. Because 900 million people living over an area the size of Europe are totally one single ethnic group speaking one language with no major differences. Much like how there are no differences between a French guy and a Romanian. Both Latin speakers, right?
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Jun 27, 2019 22:28
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Tree Goat posted:i thought the prc party line was big on there being 56 peoples who are all living in harmony That's weird - I could've sworn it was 57 just a few years ago...
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Jun 27, 2019 22:32
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A story of Crimea.
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Jun 27, 2019 22:35
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Byzantine posted:Greek was the language of the educated anyway. Educated and semi-educated Romans would indeed drop Greek words and phrases into their Latin stuff all the time just to show off. Sometimes, of course, getting it wrong. Nothing new under the sun.
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Jun 28, 2019 08:45
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No Safe Word posted:I see you North Dakota Just glad you didn't raise
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Jun 28, 2019 09:14
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Saladman posted:Isn't basically all schooling everywhere in China done in Mandarin? I imagine schooling is still spotty in large parts of rural china.
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Jun 28, 2019 09:29
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Groke posted:Educated and semi-educated Romans would indeed drop Greek words and phrases into their Latin stuff all the time just to show off. Sometimes, of course, getting it wrong. Nothing new under the sun. Tunisian Arabic is still like this, but with French. The more traditionally-educated someone is, the more random French words or phrases they'll toss into the Tounsi. Swiss German has a sort of equivalent, but instead it's linked to the more pop American culture that the person is exposed to, the more random English phrases and words they'll toss in. The amount of English spiked-in to German based on pop culture education is anecdotal so I'm not sure if that's real or confirmation-bias of my preconceptions, but Tunisian Arabic-with-French-spike-ins is almost ubiquitously tied to the person's educational level.
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Jun 28, 2019 11:43
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English is the ubiquitous global language so it tends to be used liberally by anyone wanting to look "modern" and "hip" and "cool" and "wired" and "on it" and whatever. French, German, Latin, Ancient Greek, and some others on the other hand tend to be used by people wanting to look erudite and educated. Why use "worldview" when you can use "Weltanschauung"?
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Jun 28, 2019 13:39
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Saladman posted:Tunisian Arabic is still like this, but with French. The more traditionally-educated someone is, the more random French words or phrases they'll toss into the Tounsi. Swiss German has a sort of equivalent, but instead it's linked to the more pop American culture that the person is exposed to, the more random English phrases and words they'll toss in. When I visited Istanbul, there was a family at our hotel speaking Arabic with hints of French, and also extremely non-conservative dress on the part of the wife and two daughters. And yeah my mind immediately leapt to Tunisia, which you're reinforcing here. Though I dunno, does Lebanon have the same thing anymore? Because I guess that might also fit the bill. Cat Mattress posted:English is the ubiquitous global language so it tends to be used liberally by anyone wanting to look "modern" and "hip" and "cool" and "wired" and "on it" and whatever. That depends, and the two concepts can overlap. With Tunisia French is lying around due to the colonial history as much as anything. Which is true of English in tons of places too.
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Jun 28, 2019 14:35
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Grape posted:Though I dunno, does Lebanon have the same thing anymore? Because I guess that might also fit the bill. I was in Beirut a couple years ago and I spent a fair bit of time in very bougie bars/beach clubs. When listening to other groups of young people in their 20s they'd be having conversations that drifted from Arabic -> French -> almost flawless American accented English. All three languages completely intermingled. Admittedly these were all upper middle class young people, but it was still very impressive - its pretty rare anywhere in the world to find people so completely fluent in 3 languages.
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Jun 28, 2019 16:03
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Blut posted:I was in Beirut a couple years ago and I spent a fair bit of time in very bougie bars/beach clubs. When listening to other groups of young people in their 20s they'd be having conversations that drifted from Arabic -> French -> almost flawless American accented English. All three languages completely intermingled. Admittedly these were all upper middle class young people, but it was still very impressive - its pretty rare anywhere in the world to find people so completely fluent in 3 languages. I have seen pre-schoolers in Cyprus drifting between Russian, Greek and English. 
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Jun 28, 2019 16:13
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Grape posted:When I visited Istanbul, there was a family at our hotel speaking Arabic with hints of French, and also extremely non-conservative dress on the part of the wife and two daughters. And yeah my mind immediately leapt to Tunisia, which you're reinforcing here. A lot of wealthy Arabs are very cosmopolitan, so it's hard to know re: a specific family. It's super common in Tunisian to sprinkle in French, but it's not diagnostic since I imagine you'll find Algerians and Moroccans doing the same thing, and even Egyptians (to a lesser extent; there's still quite a bit of French schooling in Egypt). I think it's just relatively more common in Tunisia since (a) Arabic is everyone's native language (unlike Morocco and Algeria), and (b) French is almost ubiquitously spoken in urban and coastal areas (unlike Egypt). Actually maybe I shouldn't have said compared to Algeria; I bet the same trend common in Tunisian Arabic is common in Algiers and other major urban centers too, I just don't have any personal knowledge of it. E: And in Tunisia—well, Tunis at least—it's not really about showing your wealth so much as educational attainment. A lower middle class person in Tunis can easily go to university and get a degree and will speak French as well as someone in Marseille. (People selling fruits in the souks will also overwhelmingly speak conversationally-fluent French, but tend much less to use French words/phrases when speaking Tounsi.) This is in notable contrast to say, Egypt where you'd only speak fluent French if you went to a private school, meaning you're at least upper middle class. Saladman fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Jun 28, 2019 |
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Jun 28, 2019 16:20
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The french are always clever with their exterior politics. At least compared to my own country. French itself apparently have some interesting built-in features, I heard. It will be sad when Hollywood and the western culture completely erase that french presence in a few generations.
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Jun 28, 2019 16:29
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Tei posted:The french are always clever with their exterior politics. At least compared to my own country. French itself apparently have some interesting built-in features, I heard. If by clever you mean they were good with taking over a bunch of places by force and leaving some semblance of their stuff on the native people, I'm pretty sure they lag way behind Spain.
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Jun 28, 2019 16:39
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Grape posted:If by clever you mean they were good with taking over a bunch of places by force and leaving some semblance of their stuff on the native people, I'm pretty sure they lag way behind Spain. Nah, my post was sincere admiration of what they did/do.
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Jun 28, 2019 16:45
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Tei posted:Nah, my post was sincere admiration of what they did/do. The uh... imperialism?
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Jun 28, 2019 16:46
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Grape posted:The uh... imperialism? Of course not. What type of wrong person would enjoy militar boots on other people countries? The cultural influence. Their diplomacy. The way they still remain friendly to these territories.
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Jun 28, 2019 16:48
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Friendly...
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Jun 28, 2019 16:53
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Tei posted:Of course not. What type of wrong person would enjoy militar boots on other people countries?
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Jun 28, 2019 16:55
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The way they remain friendly is imperialism. Like, backed-by-guns imperialism. So these guys ... hate the french and the french culture?
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Jun 28, 2019 16:57
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Jun 28, 2019 17:05
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Tei posted:So these guys ... hate the french and the french culture? i'm pretty sure everyone except the french and you hate the french
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Jun 28, 2019 17:06
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Zones d'influences terroristes indeed.
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Jun 28, 2019 17:07
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Peanut President posted:i'm pretty sure everyone except the french and you hate the french Even the French hate the French who use the wrong word for "seventy" or "eighty"
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Jun 28, 2019 17:09
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Like how do you think French culture got to any of these places? Someone in Cameroon opened the newspaper and said "These French guys have such an interesting language. Let's speak it!"
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Jun 28, 2019 17:54
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Here in Iceland a lot of people, especially teenagers and nerds, tend to switch between English and Icelandic at random. Some even having entire conversations with each other in English despite everyone speaking Icelandic and English being everyone's second or third language. And even those who mostly stick to their native tongue still pepper it with slang like "Meikar ekki sense" (Doesn't make sense), "ég feela það" (literally I feel it but more accurately means I like or enjoy it) , and "fokk"(gently caress). FreudianSlippers fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jun 28, 2019 |
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Jun 28, 2019 18:12
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galagazombie posted:Like how do you think French culture got to any of these places? Someone in Cameroon opened the newspaper and said "These French guys have such an interesting language. Let's speak it!" I’m pretty sure the Romanians did this actually
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Jun 28, 2019 18:27
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Badger of Basra posted:I’m pretty sure the Romanians did this actually Like all those party scenes in War and Peace, with everyone speaking some mix of Russian and French
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Jun 28, 2019 23:58
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