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I don't think it's really clear what the original trilogy characters were like as parents. All that is really clear about Han and Leia is that they entrusted their one son named after the alias of a guy that Han met one time to his uncle Luke, who either got tricked into provoking him into a homicidal rampage across the galaxy by a self-fulfilling prophecy (in which case, there was already something wrong with the kid) or got seduced into evil by Mr. Offscreen Villain in the same entirely unexplained way that he created an army and took over the entire galaxy. Luke muttered something about him during his talk, and considering how Kyle's working for him in the movie, it sounds plausible. It's frustrating for their exposition to be so vague, since it leaves these characters' motivations unclear, and while the original trilogy could manage with a lot less explanation, after it became a franchise, major changes in the status quo of the setting (or I guess, a bizarre reversal of a major change to the status quo in the last movie) need to be explained in some way when the setting is supposed to be part of the appeal, because otherwise what's the point of caring about this ephemeral thing that you know can just blink away any second. I think that may be result of the influence from making the marvel movies, where the setting isn't a feature in its own right, everything's supposed to be about just a few characters who are so much more important than everybody else. The audience is supposed to cheer the slaughter of footsoldiers but yearn for the personal spiritual redemption of their commander who sent them out to kill. You're supposed to shrug off the demise of 95% of all the rebel assets and personnell but then see one singular named person's demise as a real big blow.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:10
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| # ? Jun 2, 2024 23:37 |
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A big issue as well is how returning characters are treated. In the OT, while obviously the PT did not exist at the time of its creation, treats characters from the past as supporting characters. The only one who gets an arc is Darth Vader, and his arc is a subset of the protagonists. All the others are the same person as before, just older. In the sequel trilogy these people are treated as unto living gods despite none of them holding any respected position in the universe and they themselves are the central conflict for two out of three films. Luke gets a whole new character arc that not only isn't needed and just fills screen time, it also has even more character callbacks for no reason and actively undermines his character development as though he didn't just regress, he became a different person entirely. Leia is part of Kylo Ren's arc but he has no real say in it, she isn't emblematic of his growth shes just a method of forcing contrived plot growth onto him. Its bad, is what Im saying, and its caused by not having a vision for the story so theres no way to have returning characters play a character appropriate part to it.
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Sep 17, 2020 01:45
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One thing that really stood out for me in TFA is how Rey has zero idea about Luke Skywalker, but knows Han Solo and the Millennium Falcon. I know Jakku is supposed to be out in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, but how does she know a smuggler turned Rebel fighter and not the hero responsible for blowing up the first Death Star and beating Darth Vader? Is it supposed to be like that Jay Leno bit where he'll ask people on the street questions, and they'll know the MLB MVPs for the past 20 years but don't know the name of the President of the United States?
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Sep 17, 2020 02:59
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Doesn't she know about Darth Vader becoming good at the end though? Like Luke wrote and published a book telling the story of his final battle with the Emperor and his very personal last moment finally bonding with the father he had never known before? And they keep on baiting it without ever trying to dip into the philosophy of really finding and confronting the wrong itself to possibly atone, and kinda flubbing at building audience connection with the character they should even want to be redeemed or his connection to anyone else beyond his pretty face.
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Sep 17, 2020 03:15
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Bogus Adventure posted:One thing that really stood out for me in TFA is how Rey has zero idea about Luke Skywalker, but knows Han Solo and the Millennium Falcon. I know Jakku is supposed to be out in the middle of buttfuck nowhere, but how does she know a smuggler turned Rebel fighter and not the hero responsible for blowing up the first Death Star and beating Darth Vader? Is it supposed to be like that Jay Leno bit where he'll ask people on the street questions, and they'll know the MLB MVPs for the past 20 years but don't know the name of the President of the United States? Eh that doesn't necessarily add up, especially since Luke was probably off trying to be a Jedi rather than run the publicity circuit after Death Star 2. How many Americans in the 1980s knew the names of the handful of pilots who survived destroying the Kido Butai at Midway? Whereas Han kinda seems like the person who'd be playing up his living legend status, Buzz Aldrin style.
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Sep 17, 2020 03:18
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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It's really unclear what people in the ST know about what went down between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor. Which is a pretty big problem from a storytelling perspective.
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Sep 17, 2020 04:36
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It makes sense if you ignore literally every single film except Empire Strikes back, which is basically what the sequel trilogy does
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Sep 17, 2020 04:53
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SlothfulCobra posted:
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Sep 17, 2020 05:44
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I've tried writing this post a few times, but deleted it because I'm not sure if I'm writing things clearly or whatever. However, I'm just going to post because gently caress it. What is up with Disney adding the "brainwashed child soldier" thread that they added with the Storm Troopers in the sequel trilogy? That's a great theme to investigate, especially if you want to bring an end to all these drat star wars, but they never do. Instead, they get wiped out en masse and the audience cheers. At least in the Prequel and Original Trilogy, the faceless mooks that the good guys fight are either droids or Space Nazis (including the clones who are "just following orders" when wiping out the Jedi). I can understand feeling torn about the droids because they have some semblance of personality and are programmed to fight for the cowardly Trade Federation, but gently caress Space Nazis. The Empire enforces slavery, racism, and routinely wipes out planets for shits and giggles. If the Sequel Trilogy wanted to start off with having the First Order be some extremist remnant of Space Nazis, then that's cool and good. However, adding that most of their manpower is based on brainwashed children is super hosed up. It makes the people responsible more evil, but the faceless goons who get blown up turned into potential victims. It feels weird to insert that thread into a children's story about fighting Good and Evil, Failure and Redemption, Optimism versus Cynicism, and just leave it hanging. Maybe I'm just paying too much attention to weird poo poo like Battlefront 2 (where the whole brainwashed kid soldiers thing shows up) and Squadrons, where it seems like the writers are going out of their way to romanticize the Imperials. Like, look at this clip for Squadrons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2VmOqjV_7Q It's a great vignette, but they paint the Rebel pilot (the guy who fought to stop the Space Nazis) as some massive dick. It also doesn't help that the pilot is some faceless Space White guy tossing epithets ("Imp") at an Space Asian dude at a time where racism is front and center in the news today. Framing it that way makes it easy for the viewer to ignore the fact that the rear end in a top hat TIE pilot fought on the side that saw non-Humans treated as second class citizens at best or slaves at worst. I also realize that I am writing a lot of words about a dumb story meant for children. However, I just needed to get that out of my brain. Maybe people can tell me I'm crazy or misinterpreting something that Disney's Lucasfilm is doing.
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Sep 17, 2020 07:37
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The Disney trilogy sets up a story of good-vs-evil, then walks back the evil until by the end of it, it's just a set of aesthetic choices that distinguish the two sides. So in TFA, it's established that the First Order abducts children and blows up planets, then TLJ makes a fairly incoherent 'both sides!' argument and doesn't actually depict the First Order ever doing anything evil, and then by ROS, the story is basically "First Order? What's a First Order? Anyway, Kylo and Rey are working together now!" So it's perfectly consistent to have trailers that make loyal Imperial TIE pilots just as heroic as anyone else. Empire vs Rebels is just a choice of team color now.
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Sep 17, 2020 08:15
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Its because they wanted Finn to be a turncoat but didn't want to explore any ideology, social context, or politics just treating it like a magic spell he wakes up from. There is nothing deeper, no intention to explore the concept.
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Sep 17, 2020 08:41
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Bogus Adventure posted:What is up with Disney adding the "brainwashed child soldier" thread that they added with the Storm Troopers in the sequel trilogy? I maintain that it was a single line of fluff to establish the First Order as double super evil over the Empire's ordinary super evil, with no thought given to any implications beyond that purpose in that single scene. I'd wager they came up with it during the filming. I mean, I guess there's also Finn's name, but still.
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Sep 17, 2020 16:01
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Barudak posted:Its because they wanted Finn to be a turncoat but didn't want to explore any ideology, social context, or politics just treating it like a magic spell he wakes up from. I feel like I've posted about this before but I can't find it but anyway: Finn is functionally a DnD character for a player that isn't that into the story or system but wants to show up sometimes and roll some dice and cheer. The plot detail that he's a child soldier has the same function in the movies that Grognar the Unyielding's past as a member of an exterminated tribe of warriors has: it explains why he's comfortable in a fight, and the creator thought Conan the Barbarian was a good movie.
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Sep 17, 2020 16:43
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Just another thing about the question of "why doesn't (X character) know about the (characters, story, adventure) from the original trilogy?" isn't really surprising in ways since the SW galaxy probably literally has decillions of sapient beings in it with their own lives to worry about. Can you name the soldier who had the biggest hand at winning the battle of the bulge? I'm sure a few people can off the top of their heads and it's an important piece of history but it honestly has no bearing on people's lives in the moment so who cares? edit: it does make more sense that Rei has heard about Han Solo because he was a well known smuggler who did poo poo like make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs, which is the kind of redneck yahoo poo poo that would be more well known to a scavenger who hangs around a town of thieves and low-lifes than the antics of some space wizard. GATOS Y VATOS fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Sep 17, 2020 |
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Sep 17, 2020 17:57
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Well known smuggler is such a silly concept
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Sep 17, 2020 20:23
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Smuggler is just pirate in Star Wars speak.
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Sep 17, 2020 20:26
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Yeah exactly. He's an outlaw. Ned Kelly, Jesse James, etc. There are whole music subgenres about singing the praises and legends of such people.
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Sep 17, 2020 21:06
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It's not that it's impossible for his name to be known, but that everything else the movie says about Han Solo implies that he's fallen from what little honor he might've once had instead of being some kind of legend. It's not like his "associates" hold him in any kind of esteem. It's just another thing that makes the world the movie takes place in less real and takes you out of the movie. Bogus Adventure posted:Maybe I'm just paying too much attention to weird poo poo like Battlefront 2 (where the whole brainwashed kid soldiers thing shows up) and Squadrons, where it seems like the writers are going out of their way to romanticize the Imperials. Like, look at this clip for Squadrons. There is a whole thing where Imperial stuff tends to merchandise a lot better than Rebel stuff for whatever reason. Everybody likes stormtrooper stuff, but nobody wants to wear a goofy rebel hat or an orange jumpsuit. I think Disney is very conscious of that, on top of being generally uncomfortable with anti-establishment sentiments, so there's a lot of weird both-sidesing trying to play up the individual valor of imperials despite their sinister leadership and a lot of jerkass rebels despite their rightful cause. Weird stuff.
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Sep 17, 2020 21:43
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all I know about han solo is that he shot first
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Sep 17, 2020 21:46
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SlothfulCobra posted:There is a whole thing where Imperial stuff tends to merchandise a lot better than Rebel stuff for whatever reason. Everybody likes stormtrooper stuff, but nobody wants to wear a goofy rebel hat or an orange jumpsuit. I think Disney is very conscious of that, on top of being generally uncomfortable with anti-establishment sentiments, so there's a lot of weird both-sidesing trying to play up the individual valor of imperials despite their sinister leadership and a lot of jerkass rebels despite their rightful cause. Weird stuff. I like the goofy Rebel uniforms and I always wanted one of those OT pilot helmets as a kid. 
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Sep 17, 2020 22:15
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God knows, I think the fandom has bought enough merchandise and video games to put to rest the idea that people don't like the Rebel Alliance. People don't like the Resistance, the knockoff Rebellion that sucks.
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Sep 17, 2020 23:05
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the First Order using child soldiers parallels the Jedi only training extremely young children the sequel films didn't do anything with that though
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Sep 18, 2020 03:59
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The sequels propose a lot of ideas that could've been seeds for interesting stories then weren't.
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Sep 18, 2020 04:45
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Can't wait for star wars episode 8.5 where Rey (whatever the plot of Lion King 2.5 was)
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Sep 18, 2020 05:06
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Some Goon posted:Can't wait for star wars episode 8.5 where Rey (whatever the plot of Lion King 2.5 was) It's literally Rozencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
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Sep 18, 2020 06:08
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Throwing out DOTF is the ultimate pussy bitch move.
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Sep 19, 2020 03:46
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Defiance Industries posted:I like the phrase "his companionship has enriched their lives." this is a good-rear end post
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Sep 20, 2020 23:42
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SlothfulCobra posted:Doesn't she know about Darth Vader becoming good at the end though? Like Luke wrote and published a book telling the story of his final battle with the Emperor and his very personal last moment finally bonding with the father he had never known before? I thought this was what they were going for when Luke revealed the planet had like and extreme dark side cave or whatever to juxtapose Luke with developing Rey more, but then they just kind of didn't.
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Sep 25, 2020 22:37
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SlothfulCobra posted:And they keep on baiting it without ever trying to dip into the philosophy of really finding and confronting the wrong itself to possibly atone, and kinda flubbing at building audience connection with the character they should even want to be redeemed or his connection to anyone else beyond his pretty face. Neo Rasa posted:I thought this was what they were going for when Luke revealed the planet had like and extreme dark side cave or whatever to juxtapose Luke with developing Rey more, but then they just kind of didn't. Yeah, there's something in the fact that what Luke was so terrified of and saw as a pit of dark energy was a mirror, but it just sort of gets forgotten. One of a lot of things like that in the sequels.
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Sep 26, 2020 00:46
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