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That Works posted:Lmao the only positive support I've seen for CVs itt is "well there's not that many of them / the people playing them are usually bad" and the only other defense for them proposed is just "omg stop whining while I ignore any substance of your argument". CV's are fun to play.
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Sep 8, 2020 12:26
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Aramoro posted:CV's are fun to play. 
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Sep 8, 2020 12:39
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Aramoro posted:CV's are fun to play. Literally a better post than most over days
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Sep 8, 2020 12:45
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You get roughly one same-tier 100-0 ship kill’s worth of xp per 30 planes shot down.
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Sep 8, 2020 12:50
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That Works posted:Literally a better post than most over days Like for me no one is ever on at the same time so there's no divs or anything to play in for Euro, we don't clan war or anything like that. So there's no competitive play. Just sailing about making numbers go up. Might get dunked on by a CV once in a while, but then I'm dunking on someone else in a different game. All evens out in the wash. If I was a serious business competitive player I might care more, but I'm not so I don't. The new CV mechanics make them more fun to play.
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Sep 8, 2020 13:00
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I think that preventing 2 cv games at tier IV, changing spotting a bit, and reducing the regeneration rate of aircraft to cause CV players to be a bit more cautious would go a long way to removing issues with CVs but I’m a potato so what do I know?
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Sep 8, 2020 13:15
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Aramoro posted:Like for me no one is ever on at the same time so there's no divs or anything to play in for Euro, we don't clan war or anything like that. So there's no competitive play. Just sailing about making numbers go up. Might get dunked on by a CV once in a while, but then I'm dunking on someone else in a different game. All evens out in the wash. I'm not as vehemently anti-CV as some in here as I also play in very early US hours lots of times and it just hasn't been much of an issue. But I have seen how the balance is pretty hosed with them and its more annoying just from a rhetoric perspective to watch people defend well articulated complaints about CVs with just "lol you guys are haters".
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Sep 8, 2020 13:18
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That Works posted:I'm not as vehemently anti-CV as some in here as I also play in very early US hours lots of times and it just hasn't been much of an issue. But I have seen how the balance is pretty hosed with them and its more annoying just from a rhetoric perspective to watch people defend well articulated complaints about CVs with just "lol you guys are haters". From a team perspective CV's are not unbalanced because both teams have one, your broken CV is balanced by our broken CV. It's player skill that's unbalanced but that is true in very ship class.
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Sep 8, 2020 13:28
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Aramoro posted:From a team perspective CV's are not unbalanced because both teams have one, your broken CV is balanced by our broken CV. It's player skill that's unbalanced but that is true in very ship class. By that logic a Yamato in tier 1 is also balanced as long as the other team has a tier 10 battleship. CVs are unbalanced because the CV player has influence on the outcome of the match far out of proportion with anyone playing a ship. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Sep 8, 2020 |
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Sep 8, 2020 16:20
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James Garfield posted:By that logic a Yamato in tier 1 is also balanced as long as the other team has a tier 10 battleship. I mean yes? I said from a team perspective they are balanced. They're not balanced against other ship classes, but then again neither are the other ship classes with each other.
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Sep 8, 2020 16:27
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Aramoro posted:I mean yes? I said from a team perspective they are balanced. They're not balanced against other ship classes, but then again neither are the other ship classes with each other. The problem with what you're saying is that CVs are not balanced "from a team perspective," because the word balanced does not mean that both teams have the same number of it.
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Sep 8, 2020 16:42
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kaesarsosei posted:I feel kind of personally responsible for this thread spring to life in such a wonderful fashion. The tying-up isn't equivalent here, because the CV chose to spend five minutes attacking the cruiser, while the cruiser was forced to spend five minutes totally turtled up but still taking damage. The cruiser can't disengage and go do something else without the CV's express permission, because the CV's attacks are impossible to hide from and can follow them literally anywhere on the map. It's that ability to dictate the terms of the engagement that gives carriers their disproportionate gameplay impact. Even if all they're doing is occupying someone without doing much damage, they have an unrivalled ability to choose who they occupy, when, for how long, and how much risk they face in exchange. In the hands of a remotely competent player, even just the risk that a CV could attack you at the worst possible time is enough to seriously limit your options.
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Sep 8, 2020 17:41
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Main Paineframe posted:The tying-up isn't equivalent here, because the CV chose to spend five minutes attacking the cruiser, while the cruiser was forced to spend five minutes totally turtled up but still taking damage. The cruiser can't disengage and go do something else without the CV's express permission, because the CV's attacks are impossible to hide from and can follow them literally anywhere on the map. None of these people arguing that CVs are fine understand these concepts though, because they don't understand that except for interaction with CV, all ships have a huge measure of control over their engagements with other ships. To them it's a game where they sail forward, stuff shoots at each other for a while, and sometimes it works out for them, and there's no more depth or nuance beyond that. With that outlook, CVs aren't really that bothersome - you always get spotted and shot anyway, right? So who cares if some airplanes come and shoot you for less than the 5 other ships in front of you were doing? The issue of course is that if you ever want to move beyond that level of understanding and engagement with the game, CVs won't let you, or at least, can choose at any time not to let you and there is nothing you can do about it.
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Sep 8, 2020 18:02
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It's also a terrible player in a tier 8 CV that is supposed to be weak against cruisers preventing a non terrible player in a tier 10 cruiser that is supposed to be strong against CVs from playing the game. And the reverse isn't true, even if the Indomitable is doing 0 damage the Worcester isn't preventing it from playing the game. It can strike anything on the map with its 220 knot planes but it's flying them into Worcester flak because it's bad. The "I'm going to guess your team won this match" part is telling. If they won it proves that CVs are balanced because a tier 10 AA cruiser countered a tier 8 CV that is bad against cruisers, and if they lost it proves that CVs are balanced because a tier 8 CV that is bad against cruisers countering a tier 10 AA cruiser wasn't enough to make its team win. No matter what happens the universal truth is that CVs are balanced.
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Sep 8, 2020 18:53
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You can only do one thing in game. The moment someone or something spoils it that's it might as well go back to port. 
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Sep 8, 2020 19:37
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Stanley Pain posted:You can only do one thing in game. The moment someone or something spoils it that's it might as well go back to port. You but this is basically true! WoWS is a game of dealing damage (the one thing you do) without taking damage (the one thing the other team does to you). When someone spoils your ability to not take damage, you die and go back to port.The fundamental problem with carriers is that they have two very powerful ways of dealing unavoidable damage to you — airstrikes and spotting. You can counterplay spotting a bit by never going anywhere risky, but this just feeds back into a very passive meta that punishes exciting play.
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Sep 8, 2020 19:50
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General Battuta posted:You The game doesn't play out as separate 1v1 engagements. That's kinda the point I'm trying to drive home here. If the current thing you are doing is being blocked by that dirty CV go do something else. That means some of the time you might be sitting there with your thumb up your butt, or eating poo poo from something else, etc. If a CV has a hate boner for you, take em for a ride and waste their time while your team does something constructive. I know this argument has been said before but CVs really do counter people sniping from way back, or island humping, etc with 0 recourse. Some of you have hand waved that away but I think some of you have forgotten how lovely that was to play against as well.
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Sep 8, 2020 21:23
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Bismarck is kind of balls nowadays. Any build suggestions? The only thing ill chime in on carriers is that wg should change aircraft spotting to someyhing like radar, or on top of that have unique attributes to each type of squadron where some are dedicated to recon, etc.
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Sep 8, 2020 21:38
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Stanley Pain posted:The game doesn't play out as separate 1v1 engagements. That's kinda the point I'm trying to drive home here. If the current thing you are doing is being blocked by that dirty CV go do something else. That means some of the time you might be sitting there with your thumb up your butt, or eating poo poo from something else, etc. No, the game isn't a set of separate 1v1 engagements, and that's exactly the point. WoWS is a game of doing damage without taking damage. Carriers do damage to you no matter what you do. It's not a matter of finding something new to do or some new position to occupy, because carriers don't interact with surface ships on that layer, since they ignore terrain and concealment. They will do damage to you no matter what you are doing. Changing what you're doing won't alter that. Your only options are to position yourself so only the carrier can hit you (and take its unavoidable damage) or to try to maneuver to do something else (in which case you take the unavoidable damage, plus avoidable damage from other surface ships). Your options are 'hosed' or 'hosed more.'
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Sep 8, 2020 21:50
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For example, I recently ran into a Midway that had charged into the caps on Land of Fire. I was in a Montana, a battleship from (theoretically) the AA country. It was well within range of my main guns, but unfortunately at a range where all I would get were AP ricochets off the flight deck, so shooting at it was more or less pointless. (I gave it one volley of HE but saw too many shatters.) I ignored it aside from turns and pressing O, and landed several citadels on a Yamato and an anime Soviet battleship off to my port. That was good and helped my team, but if those battleships had been smart enough to attack me while I was permaspotted, they could easily have angled to avoid my damage and killed me. Meanwhile, the Midway launched planes at me. I maneuvered to dodge torpedoes and shot down about twenty planes, but never before a given flight got at least two strikes in. Eventually I ran out of DC and heal cooldowns and burned/flooded to death. The Midway sailed off mostly untouched. My team won. I would argue I played that situation about as well as I possibly could, but my destruction was inevitable from the moment the Midway selected me, and even though it was spotted and well inside my gun range in a US battleship, I had no counterplay available. If carriers could burn I would've set some fires, but in a remarkable feat of historical revisionism they're fireproof.
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Sep 8, 2020 21:55
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Burns posted:Bismarck is kind of balls nowadays. Any build suggestions? This is the only thing that makes sense, I think. The main guns are absolute trash so if you're going to play this line at all you might as well spec it into the only thing it's good at, even if that thing is dumb and not that good. You gotta develop a keen sense for when you can push in and when you need to stay away, though. Burns posted:The only thing ill chime in on carriers is that wg should change aircraft spotting to someyhing like radar, or on top of that have unique attributes to each type of squadron where some are dedicated to recon, etc. A long time ago someone in this thread dug up a dev blog from when the game was in alpha testing and revealed that originally CV's were supposed to special recon planes - the strike aircraft couldn't spot on their own. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Sep 8, 2020 |
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Sep 8, 2020 22:03
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General Battuta posted:... If carriers could burn I would've set some fires, but in a remarkable feat of historical revisionism they're fireproof. Are ... are you saying that World of Warships is guilty of historical revisionism? But the Soviet, American, French, British, German, Italian, Pan-Asian, Commonwealth, and Imperial Japanese Navies were historically ALWAYS on the same side against the collected forces of the Soviet, American, French, British, German, Italian, Pan-Asian, Commonwealth, and Imperial Japanese Navies! Cobbsprite fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Sep 8, 2020 |
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Sep 8, 2020 22:05
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Cobbsprite posted:Are ... are you saying that World of Warships is guilty of historical revisionism? But the Soviet, American, French, British, German, Italian, Pan-Asian, Commonwealth, and Imperial Japanese Navies were historically ALWAYS on the same side against the collected forces of the Soviet, American, French, British, German, Italian, Pan-Asian, Commonwealth, and Imperial Japanese Navies! what are you even talking about
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Sep 8, 2020 22:06
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Stanley Pain posted:If a CV has a hate boner for you, take em for a ride and waste their time while your team does something constructive. I know this argument has been said before but CVs really do counter people sniping from way back, or island humping, etc with 0 recourse. Some of you have hand waved that away but I think some of you have forgotten how lovely that was to play against as well. It is not possible for you to waste the CV's time. There is no situation, ever, where a CV is forced to bomb you. There is a lot of existing counterplay to people sniping from far back or parking behind islands all game; in point of fact, neither of those is a particularly effective strategy to win games without a CV, and gameplay is much more passive when there are CVs. If you can't figure out how to play against it the onus is on you to improve. Stanley Pain posted:The game doesn't play out as separate 1v1 engagements. As a carrier it does, with the addition that the ships do not get to choose which 1v1 engagements to take.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:07
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Cobbsprite posted:Are ... are you saying that World of Warships is guilty of historical revisionism? But the Soviet, American, French, British, German, Italian, Pan-Asian, Commonwealth, and Imperial Japanese Navies were historically ALWAYS on the same side against the collected forces of the Soviet, American, French, British, German, Italian, Pan-Asian, Commonwealth, and Imperial Japanese Navies! Destroyers shoot torpedoes and little guns, cruisers have rapid fire weapons and do cruiser stuff, battleships are big and slow with huge guns, carriers launch little aircraft. All those obey the general dynamics (call it the lay physics) of a WW2 battle. Carriers are, in that vein, not exactly famous for being fireproof.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:17
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I miss setting CVs on fire and them being unable to launch planes. Can that be brought back at least?
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Sep 8, 2020 22:59
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At this point, this thread is more entertaining than the actual game 
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Sep 8, 2020 23:22
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CitizenKain posted:I miss setting CVs on fire and them being unable to launch planes. Can that be brought back at least? the pettiest complaint I have about CV's is that wargaming in their infinite wisdom have seen fit to make them immune to detonations
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Sep 9, 2020 00:08
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Imagine life once they add modern anti-ship missiles to the game. You press a key, it launches, and you get to control it as it flies around. Then, you spot a ship to hit that maybe fires some AAA that you can dodge, then you click and fshooooom the missile dives in and hits the enemy ship for reasonable damage while you're safe on the other side of the map. Oh wait. Jokes aside, it's really only the semi-persistent spotting that's frustrating.
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Sep 9, 2020 00:12
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If you citadel a Japanese carrier with HE bombs, it explodes from avgas 1 hour later.
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Sep 9, 2020 00:13
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ToiletDuckie posted:Imagine life once they add modern anti-ship missiles to the game. You press a key, it launches, and you get to control it as it flies around. Then, you spot a ship to hit that maybe fires some AAA that you can dodge, then you click and fshooooom the missile dives in and hits the enemy ship for reasonable damage while you're safe on the other side of the map. Didn't Warthunder do something like that? Not on a ship, but on a tank.
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Sep 9, 2020 02:08
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ToiletDuckie posted:Imagine life once they add modern anti-ship missiles to the game. You press a key, it launches, and you get to control it as it flies around. Then, you spot a ship to hit that maybe fires some AAA that you can dodge, then you click and fshooooom the missile dives in and hits the enemy ship for reasonable damage while you're safe on the other side of the map. I've said it several times, but WG still has trouble deciding what CV's identity is. Are they spotters, or damage dealers? Doing both at the same time really obfuscates just how effective they are, and overloads their power budget. If WG wants to give them god-like spotting, they should pull back on the damage or something else, and if they're meant to be remote damage dealers, they should have their spotting nerfed (just make them mini-map spotting only already, FFS). But WG refuses to even try either of these options, so we're stuck with what we have. Normal CV players will be annoying, good CV players will do ridiculous poo poo with their overloaded kit with no risk, and WG will point at an arbitrary stat to say that nothing needs to change. Whatever happened to the WG supertest where they made planes minimap only for like, 10 minutes? Ughhhhhhh
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Sep 9, 2020 02:38
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Hell, all they would have to do is make them spot just like radar does: minimap only for everyone except the CV for 10 seconds before becoming fully spotted. It’s probably not enough, but it’s easy and a step in the right direction, but we can’t ever try it because we’re rolling out a new line of premium CV’s with skip bombs.
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Sep 9, 2020 03:18
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Stanley Pain posted:Didn't Warthunder do something like that? Not on a ship, but on a tank. Armored Warfare had ATGMs on many tanks. They generally had high damage, but long reload and could be countered by ablative sections, or cages to detonate the warhead. You steered them from where you fired them, so it took some effort to hit things with them. But if you nailed their sides or rear with those, they would really tear up tanks.
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Sep 9, 2020 03:19
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I had to completely reinstall WoWS recently and lost all my settings, and for whatever reason the "track shell / torpedo after firing" button now wants to fire a shell / torpedo and then track it, rather than tracking shells / torps I've already fired. Is this a toggle I can set in some menu 50 levels deep, or did I accidentally have some mod previously?
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Sep 9, 2020 11:10
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cv's suck rear end but the biggest problem that you should be seeing every single game is that they have widenened the dd skill gap to a ridiculous degree, which i'm fairly sure is half the reason for the constant steamrolls nowdays
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Sep 9, 2020 13:39
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Stanley Pain posted:Didn't Warthunder do something like that? Not on a ship, but on a tank. Not sure if you were just joking here, but he was literally describing rocket planes as they are today in WoWS
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Sep 9, 2020 13:51
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toadee posted:Not sure if you were just joking here, but he was literally describing rocket planes as they are today in WoWS WTF are you smoking? Re-read what he wrote. ToiletDuckie posted:Imagine life once they add modern anti-ship missiles to the game. You press a key, it launches, and you get to control it as it flies around.
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Sep 9, 2020 14:54
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Stanley Pain posted:WTF are you smoking? Re-read what he wrote. Yes, read ALL of what he wrote: quote:Imagine life once they add modern anti-ship missiles to the game. You press a key, it launches, and you get to control it as it flies around. Then, you spot a ship to hit that maybe fires some AAA that you can dodge, then you click and fshooooom the missile dives in and hits the enemy ship for reasonable damage while you're safe on the other side of the map. You launch rocket planes, you control them, you find an enemy ship, you easily dodge AA, you click on it, rockets go fshoooooom! and hit the ship for an (un)reasonable amount of damage, while you're safe on the other side of the map. OH WAIT
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Sep 9, 2020 14:59
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I'm going to ignore you for a while. Let me know when you're done ranting and raving about CVs.
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Sep 9, 2020 15:10
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