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The comic's definitely not strongly misogynistic, and people like Nice Pete are portrayed negatively, but when I reread it recently I encountered a few moments that were a bit iffy. Can't recall them off the top of my head, though, so this particular testimony has no evidence to back it up Just chiming in that I wouldn't dismiss the casual misogyny comment entirely.
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Mar 4, 2013 01:44
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| # ? May 29, 2024 23:43 |
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The comic almost exclusively explores male characters' perspectives on various scenarios. I wouldn't say that's misogyny, only that Chris Onstad is more comfortable with or interested in that kind of subject matter. Which is fine.
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Mar 4, 2013 01:47
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Mo Tzu posted:Wasn't there a webcomic, I think Cat and Girl, that was like "Rarer than a strong female character in Achewood" and the other person started to say Molly but the first one said "Molly's just a prop for Roast Beef." Achewood's definitely a comic that doesn't pass the Bechdel test. I've never really read Cat and Girl, but I remember seeing that one linked. Here you go: http://catandgirl.com/?p=320 Gotta agree with it. Achewood is a comic about dudes 100%, and the women in it are outsiders. It's worth pointing out, even if you think Achewood is one of the best webcomics. However, as far as that earlier post goes, I wouldn't say Achewood itself is casually misogynistic, as a comic, just that a lot of the characters are.
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Mar 4, 2013 01:48
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It's misogynistic, but it doesn't dress up in a tux for it. Jeans and a tshirt is perfectly suitable misogynizing wear.
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Mar 4, 2013 01:53
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Fister Roboto posted:It's misogynistic, but it doesn't dress up in a tux for it. Jeans and a tshirt is perfectly suitable misogynizing wear. Now I want to see someone make a misogyny tux. It could have tails, with chrome nude ladies reclining on each of them.
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Mar 4, 2013 01:54
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Achewood is great, but yeah, women in it generally exist as things for the male characters to think about and analyse their relationships to. I don't know if that's misogynistic as such, it's just what the strip is like, and Onstad is a legitimately great writer so I'm willing to forgive a lot. Onstad appears to have made a good faith effort at intervals to write against this tendency with Molly (her blogs in particular give a solid, individual perspective that makes her feel less like "a prop for Roast Beef"), but it's not incredibly successful on the whole I would say. The only women in the strip who show up with any consistency are literally Roast Beef's girlfriend-then-wife, Ray's shrewish idiot girlfriend-then-ex, and Ray and Philippe's mothers. Also I guess Gramma K and Roast Beef's mom are fairly significant background presences, but they fall very much into the same pattern. It's definitely not a comic that passes the Bechdel Test, but I think just saying that makes it sound too clinical or even understated; it's pretty much a classic example of a piece of fiction that's only interested in women in their capacity as wives/mothers/sex partners. It's still great. But that's a thing that appears to be undeniably true about it, if you were curious.
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Mar 4, 2013 01:57
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It could be something that changes, now that Onstad has a daughter, but who knows. Dude also got a divorce. And double-standards relating to daughters are pretty omnipresent in society.
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Mar 4, 2013 02:01
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If we're going to be talking about Achewood's flaws, we should probably mention the rare, but grating racism. Both of the Asian characters I can think of speak in embarrassingly bad YOU PAY FIVE DORRAH accents. One of them exists only to babble aphorisms at Beef and then hand him an incoherent fortune cookie. In the Japan Man arc, Little Nephew actually mentions how racist it is to stereotype Japanese people as being interested in "toilet activity", but I'm pretty sure that Japanese people are only ever mentioned in relation to scatological humor. (There's, what, the Japanese toilet strip, the Japanese prostrate examination strip, the Japanese takeover of Achewood strip...) It's not that much better than clay goblins.
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Mar 4, 2013 02:12
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There's also some pretty bad homophobia. For example, breast men are purported to be objectively superior to rear end men. rear end man is the gender/orientation-neutral choice, because many men have asses as well.
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Mar 4, 2013 02:30
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I think Ultra Peanut held her own in the strips she was f- ah who am I kidding. I think at the least the comic does no harm, at most junctures, that's like, better than most things, right?
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Mar 4, 2013 02:41
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Isn't the point of the rear end man/breast man strips that it's stupid?
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Mar 4, 2013 02:44
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Fister Roboto posted:There's also some pretty bad homophobia. For example, breast men are purported to be objectively superior to rear end men. rear end man is the gender/orientation-neutral choice, because many men have asses as well. Or you know, you're reading way too much into cats in a comics.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:01
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Instead of discussing vague instances of misogyny in a webcomic about a talking cat who wears a thong underwear, lets talk about how its creator has lost all touch with reality and thinks that the "test reel" he made is ready to be pitched to networks.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:02
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tehloki posted:Can't believe this isn't in here yet. Going back a few days, but did it tickle anyone else that The Russians used the password "therussians" the same way that the security chief of Yahoo uses the password "yahoo" in this strip? I wasn't too keen on the test footage. Ray's voice and mannerisms sound nothing like what I would have imagined. The voicework and pacing ruined the humour of some pretty good strips. If I had seen this as a show without being familiar with the comic, I doubt I would be interested in seeing more.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:11
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A comic being wacky doesn't put it outside of the realm of critique, or outside of the realm of having content that relates directly to real life. And in Achewood's case, that's not even a good argument, since there's a very wide range of content within the comic, all the way from "thong cat drinks too much and shits the bed" to "well-executed meaningful emotional statement about adulthood and family". Plus, due to anthropomorphizing, human race and ethnicity is a part of Achewood, it's not just "these are cats". Roast Beef's mom is Jewish, for example. Also worth pointing out again - you can say that media is problematic or flawed, while still saying that it's great and you love it. Binary thinking about sexism and racism and the like is one of the reasons it's so hard for cultures to make progress socially. When someone says "Achewood treats women weirdly, and there's some misogyny", they're not saying "Chris Onstad hates women and the only people who like Achewood are misogynists.", they're just pointing out something that they see in the comic.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:15
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And why are the ding dongs always either roasted or furious?
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Mar 4, 2013 03:30
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Darthemed posted:And why are the ding dongs always either roasted or furious? Because of this post my fiance, who is lying next to me, is wondering why I am laughing at the computer when I should be asleep. I think some of y'all are looking for something to be offended about, and I say this as a staunch progressive.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:34
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This is the same idiotic poo poo as the whole "Girls is racist because 4 white girls living in Brooklyn don't have any non-white best friends" bullshit. People write from their lives. Dude was going through times. Might have had a kid to try and "fix" a bad marriage. Got divorced anyway. Can't be hard to figure out why he didn't write a lot of positive women in his comics.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:37
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Was there confirmation that he was divorced? I don't remember ever reading anything definitive.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:40
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Dr. Atticus posted:Or you know, you're reading way too much into cats in a comics. He is being facetious, presumably by way of protest against the idea that Achewood could have issues with women. Interestingly, Achewood is actually pretty cool with gay dudes. Rod Huggins, despite looking like a ridiculous stereotype, is actually a pretty good guy, and even though Pat's an rear end in a top hat, he and Pat have a super normal, stable relationship that is explored with a fair amount of depth for two side characters. There are arcs that deal with homosexuality in a way that's funny but isn't really belittling and is more humanising/absurd than anything. Then again, there's the weird stuff in the High School arc! I'm tempted to say that isn't really so bad, though. I know some people got mega bad vibes from Nathan, but to me he just seemed like a sad promiscuous old man who'd been abducted by a serial killer. Still weird but maybe not really homophobic so much as, uh, fraught. e: dude, I'm not "looking to be offended". I'm not offended about anything, even! I like Achewood, it's one of my favourite pieces of written work in the world probably. I'm just also willing to say what's in it and what's not, and what it does or doesn't do. Android Blues fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Mar 4, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 03:40
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There sure are a lot of people falling over themselves to defend Onstad's comic against a legitimate observation. Why does this always have to happen with this subject?
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Mar 4, 2013 03:40
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Loving Life Partner posted:Was there confirmation that he was divorced? I don't remember ever reading anything definitive. http://believermag.tumblr.com/post/18779782128/interview-with-chris-onstad-by-joseph-martin-part
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Mar 4, 2013 03:45
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Tonfa posted:There sure are a lot of people falling over themselves to defend Onstad's comic against a legitimate observation. Why does this always have to happen with this subject? Why does this subject always get brought up whether it is relevant/worthwhile to discuss or not? I think the answer to both of these questions lie in similar places. Something about shoulders.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:46
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tehloki posted:Why does this subject always get brought up whether it is relevant/worthwhile to discuss or not? I think the answer to both of these questions lie in similar places. Something about shoulders. I think this is kind of a red herring. Is this more "relevant/worthwhile" to discuss than Philippe's mouth or that time Cornelius pacified an unruly dog? I dunno, I guess that depends on how interested you are in it. It's certainly not irrelevant to the work, and I personally think it's worthwhile to discuss, I guess some other people do too. Other people don't but that doesn't merit responding with aggression and snide comments.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:50
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I'm just saying there are people who will want to talk about the issue of sexism/misogyny in absolutely anything and there are people who will defend achewood against absolutely anything that could be regarded as criticism. Didn't mean to come off as snarky/taking a side.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:53
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tehloki posted:I'm just saying there are people who will want to talk about the issue of sexism/misogyny in absolutely anything and there are people who will defend achewood against absolutely anything that could be regarded as criticism. Didn't mean to come off as snarky/taking a side. Fair enough! Sorry if I came off like a jerk, myself.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:54
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I can't believe I didn't think of this until now, but does Little Nephew have an actual name? edit: It's Charley. Don't know why I forgot.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:56
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Cobweb Heart posted:I can't believe I didn't think of this until now, but does Little Nephew have an actual name? It's Charley, iirc. Charley Smuckles? Not sure. His surname might be different but I think I remember it being the same.
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Mar 4, 2013 03:57
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Android Blues posted:He is being facetious, presumably by way of protest against the idea that Achewood could have issues with women. I read the high school arc thing as being weird and degrading because Teodor's still way in the closet and that's how he thinks of his latent homosexuality. Getting beaten and blowing old dudes in the back of a murder-van is what coming out means to him. There's tons of incidental characters who clearly aren't meant to be a naturalistic true-to-life portrait of real Americans, they're some kind of caricature to reflect the core cast's prejudices and neuroses. Hell, the chinchilla couple from the same arc, did you look at them and go "what well-rounded, human characters, Onstad certainly has nailed what it is to truly be a redneck animal hoarder"? Dude is clearly a whole lot more comfortable handling gay dudes than he is women but like 75% of the comic is dealing with aspects of masculinity in the first place, and the other 25% is various fiddling around in the mindsets of his self-absorbed male avatars. That's not a failing of the comic so long as you acknowledge it's limited in scope, though it could definitely be argued to reflect a personal shortcoming. Android Blues posted:It's Charley, iirc. Charley Smuckles? Not sure. His surname might be different but I think I remember it being the same. Clearly a "nephew" of the Huey, Dewey, and Louie school. Tubgirl Cosplay fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Mar 4, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 04:15
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Tubgirl Cosplay posted:I read the high school arc thing as being weird and degrading because Teodor's still way in the closet and that's how he thinks of his latent homosexuality. There's tons of incidental characters who clearly aren't meant to be a naturalistic true-to-life portrait of real Americans, they're some kind of caricature to reflect the core cast's prejudices and neuroses. Hell, the chinchilla couple from the same arc, did you look at them and go "what well-rounded, human characters, Onstad certainly has nailed what it is to truly be a redneck animal hoarder"? Yeah, I more or less agree with this. It's certainly uncomfortable but it's more about Teodor's own discomfort with his sexuality than anything. Nathan is a weird dude, but he's a weird dude in that Achewood way where it's a naturalistic concept extended into the surreal.
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Mar 4, 2013 04:21
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edit: never mind
Foppish Yet Dashing fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Mar 4, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 05:59
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Cobweb Heart posted:If we're going to be talking about Achewood's flaws, we should probably mention the rare, but grating racism.
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Mar 4, 2013 07:51
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The multitudinous races and sexes are represented flawlessly in Achewood.  
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Mar 4, 2013 08:03
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Zereth posted:Chevy Ford Wo? I remember seeing a comment from Onstad that that was basically exactly a person he knew in real life. I remember it actually being a pretty spot-on accent rather than the stock not-very-accurate comedy asian person accent. I looked up "abusive Chinese restaurant" and came up with Edsel Ford Fong, the world's rudest waiter, who used to work at Sam Wo's in San Francisco. So that's where the name's from, but he died in 1984.
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Mar 4, 2013 08:12
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Phy posted:I looked up "abusive Chinese restaurant" and came up with Edsel Ford Fong, the world's rudest waiter, who used to work at Sam Wo's in San Francisco. So that's where the name's from, but he died in 1984. Man, now I wish I remembered where I saw that comment, I want to go check it again.
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Mar 4, 2013 08:26
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Calling Achewood's lack of women's perspectives misogyny is like driving a car off a pier and yelling "What the hell is wrong with this boat?"
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Mar 4, 2013 10:04
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Honestly the only problem I personally have is from a certain point on half the strips with Beef and Molly involve him yelling at her and it's really uncomfortable to read on an archive binge of what is otherwise a really fun comic.
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Mar 4, 2013 11:38
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The Time Dissolver posted:Calling Achewood's lack of women's perspectives misogyny is like driving a car off a pier and yelling "What the hell is wrong with this boat?" Pretty much this. It is about a bunch of dudes in dude relationships. It isn't meant to be something for everyone, and you don't need a strong female character in it to make it good. The problem with male gaze/heteronormative/male default whatever's isn't that thy exist, it is that they exist to the exclusion of everything else. If you build a cast to quotas you get loving Captain Planet ad infinitum. I agree that Molly is a secondary character that exists to play out Roast Beef as a more multidimensional character, though, and don't think she's a particularly social-justice-positive female character by virtue of screen time and narrative importance. Conversely, I don't think her and Roast Beefs relationship, particularly Beef's treatment of her, is particularly healthy or meant to be, as Molly is often the sweet and caring while Beef is a selfish rear end in a top hat who sucks.
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Mar 4, 2013 11:55
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Edit: Sigma-X said what I was going for better than I did.
Wanderer fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Mar 4, 2013 |
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Mar 4, 2013 12:05
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I read a comment in a Calvin & Hobbes collection once where Bill Waterson was talking about how he was always getting angry letters from people that were pissed that Calvin's parents were always mean to him, mistreated him, etc. Waterson's reply to that was that the only context that the parents were ever written in was in response to something Calvin was doing. That's how I've always seen Molly.
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Mar 4, 2013 16:04
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