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No Wave posted:Not for me. There are thirty+ charms in the game and experimenting with them is interesting and a lot of players won't do it unless you encourage them to by making it more or less mandatory. Changing the number of slots available to me before and after boss fights thanks to compass and sucky made a lot more charms potentially useful rather than just having the one god loadout. Atoramos posted:I played this game for 42 hours and got 100% without following a guide, and thought it was incredible. That's before any of the DLC was released. With Gungeon and Dead Cells big updates just arriving, I'm curious how much time/how clear Hollow Knight's DLC content is, or if I should put the whole thing off for a while until I'm ready to play the game over again from scratch.
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Apr 8, 2019 23:31
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Darox posted:Like what is the argument against it, that it's unfair you have to spend a resource on it? Resource management is a core part of games, charm management is part of that. If the compass or geo magnet didn't exist at all that would be annoying, but they do and you can use them and they're both super cheap so what's the issue. Not exactly. The argument against it is that it's an extremely uninteresting choice. Obstacles in the player's way (like managing scarce resources) are good because games would be boring without them, but not all obstacles are created equal; it's the difference between difficulty (something that is merely hard) and challenge (something that is hard because you have to think seriously about the right thing to do and/or execute it correctly). You're not trying to determine what would give you the better advantage or be better suited to a particular challenge; you're trying to determine how much of a pain in the rear end you want the game to be in order to have a leg up for the harder parts. On top of that, the main context here is bossfights, where there's no reason to have the compass equipped in the first place; in that case there isn't even a trade-off except for the time and effort spent fiddling with the UI for the sake of what is otherwise a non-choice. e: Another way to look at it is "what quality is being tested?" Swapping out your compass doesn't test your intelligence, your focus, your reflexes, your knowledge of the game. It just tests your patience. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Apr 8, 2019 |
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Apr 8, 2019 23:41
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Usually any time I had problems with a boss, I would throw on Joni's Blessing and then just walk up to them and slap their poo poo. There were a few it didn't work on, though NK Grimm was one of them.
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Apr 8, 2019 23:52
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HK's treatment of player options is not the best. I don't think the game should ever force the player to use a different charm set or anything, but it could do a better job with a lot of things. The charm menu could've for instance had a small window that played a short loop displaying animation changes and such (think how DMC handles its movelist). And how many people flat out ignore magic, especially Desolate Dive and Howling Wraiths? Hell the way DD gets presented to you in the section after you get it is almost perfectly set up for you to compartmentalise it as a specifically mobility/area access move instead of a weapon to use against enemies.
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Apr 9, 2019 00:26
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the game should have had the compass baked in because it's not the kind of game where not knowing your exact position in a room is part of the core 'experience' and anyone who is adamant about fighting this incredibly basic and uncontroversial opinion is unwilling to accept a really common criticism of the game
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Apr 9, 2019 00:49
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 Heckin' yeah Wouldn't call it nearly as rough as NKG but it still took a few tries to get used to the section where you can't use any land to heal.
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Apr 9, 2019 01:33
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Johnny Joestar posted:the game should have had the compass baked in because it's not the kind of game where not knowing your exact position in a room is part of the core 'experience' and anyone who is adamant about fighting this incredibly basic and uncontroversial opinion is unwilling to accept a really common criticism of the game Ofc I also wonder how it's uncontroversial even if people disagree with you.
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Apr 9, 2019 02:04
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The compass and geo vacuum not being baked in is hot garbage.
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Apr 9, 2019 02:09
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I think they're interesting as training wheels that can (optionally) come off at a certain point for extra power. I mostly left the compass on and still didn't have a problem on most of the bosses, but thought reconfiguring when needed was rewarding and fun It's fine if you felt otherwise though
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Apr 9, 2019 02:12
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I think not having the map in a given new area suffices just fine for touching upon the supposed allure/mystery they seemed to be going for in the exploration into the dark and unknown. The game is over 30 hours (I'm a little over 40 at the moment) and you spend such a huge amount of time simply backtracking through the same hallways with the map fully uncovered I'm not really convinced it makes for a genuinely superior experience to go without a compass. All it would functionally do for a huge % of the game is just make it more potentially tedious/annoying where nothing actually poses a risk to you and you've been through all these hallways dozens of times but whoops took a wrong turn somewhere because it still kind of all looks the same.
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Apr 9, 2019 03:02
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You should come back in 6 months and try it without the compass
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Apr 9, 2019 03:16
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How would y'all feel if you always had the compass but there was one less charm notch? What if it had only ever been that way?
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Apr 9, 2019 03:25
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Johnny Joestar posted:the game should have had the compass baked in because it's not the kind of game where not knowing your exact position in a room is part of the core 'experience' and anyone who is adamant about fighting this incredibly basic and uncontroversial opinion is unwilling to accept a really common criticism of the game Imo being rewarded for being good at orienteering with a bit of extra power is a good thing.
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Apr 9, 2019 03:37
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if it were up to me, I'd not only not bake in the compass, I'd take the compass charm out entirely
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Apr 9, 2019 03:41
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Getting lost, exploring, and finding your way to a landmark is an exhilarating and wonderful experience, and it’s something that video games in general have lost in favor of a perfectly accurate GPS map and free easy teleports to anywhere you want at the drop of a hat. It really bothers me how many people want to do the same with HK, one of the few modern games to do exploration right. If Silksong has a permanent compass I can’t turn off I’ll be really disappointed. It’d be just like how all Dark Soulses after 1 went with bonfire teleports from the start and lost their satisfying exploration as a result. Hollow Knight stands out to me as a game where you need to buy the map pins. And one of them is more expensive because it’s made out of a more valuable material. That’s fantastic and I want more of it. Nate RFB posted:e: Another way to look at it is "what quality is being tested?" Swapping out your compass doesn't test your intelligence, your focus, your reflexes, your knowledge of the game. It just tests your patience. Get good enough at navigation and you don’t ever have to bother with the compass at all. That’s what’s being tested. Pigbuster fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Apr 9, 2019 |
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Apr 9, 2019 03:51
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Make the compass drain your health, because of...idk, magnetic fields and poo poo
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Apr 9, 2019 03:51
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Lock out the true ending if the map is opened more than twenty times
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Apr 9, 2019 03:52
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Pigbuster posted:Getting lost, exploring, and finding your way to a landmark is an exhilarating and wonderful experience, and it’s something that video games in general have lost in favor of a perfect accurate GPS map and free easy teleports to anywhere you want at the drop of a hat. It really bothers me how many people want to do the same with HK, one of the few modern games to do exploration right. If Silksong has a permanent compass I can’t turn off I’ll be really disappointed. It’d be just like how all Dark Soulses after 1 went with bonfire teleports from the start and lost their satisfying exploration as a result. 
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Apr 9, 2019 03:52
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Yea and people bounced off not having a map and compass unlocked from the get go. So your fun game isn't as popular as it could be cause you have a sadistic streak. Putting in options of accessibility doesn't effect your sense of accomplishment you weirdos.
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Apr 9, 2019 03:59
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Maybe the solution is to have a compass that can be turned on or off, but doesn't cost anything? That way you accommodate both kinds of players.
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Apr 9, 2019 04:09
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea and people bounced off not having a map and compass unlocked from the get go. So your fun game isn't as popular as it could be cause you have a sadistic streak. Putting in options of accessibility doesn't effect your sense of accomplishment you weirdos. The compass is an option of accessibility. That’s what it’s there for. Also, I’m a Rain World fan; a game’s popularity is not much of a concern for me. 
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Apr 9, 2019 04:13
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It is an option of accessibility but it's not there from the beginning and if you don't know about it then you could go a long time before getting it.
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Apr 9, 2019 04:15
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Imagine falling into the Deepnest pit with the hotspring and being able to just teleport out immediately via the bench. Getting locked in the City of Tears and warping away via the bench a minute later. The fragile flower quest but there's no stag station restriction and you can just jump straight from Resting Grounds to Queens Garden. Restrictions are what makes it a game and not just a toybox with console cheats. fractalairduct posted:Maybe the solution is to have a compass that can be turned on or off, but doesn't cost anything? That way you accommodate both kinds of players. Just use the compass that already exists in the game dude. It costs a tiny amount of Geo and a single charm slot. Those two kinds of players are not rigid groups, most players are going to start out wanting to use the compass and graduate from it and their reward is having one extra charm slot to play with while exploring.
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Apr 9, 2019 04:19
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea and people bounced off not having a map and compass unlocked from the get go. So your fun game isn't as popular as it could be cause you have a sadistic streak. Putting in options of accessibility doesn't effect your sense of accomplishment you weirdos.
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Apr 9, 2019 04:20
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Invalid Validation posted:Yea and people bounced off not having a map and compass unlocked from the get go. So your fun game isn't as popular as it could be cause you have a sadistic streak. Putting in options of accessibility doesn't effect your sense of accomplishment you weirdos. This game does have an accessibility option. It's called the compass. Also lmao that a game trying to capture the magic of getting lost in a world is "a sadistic streak".
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Apr 9, 2019 04:41
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The video game sadists are at it again
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Apr 9, 2019 04:46
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I want to complain about a legitimate problem the game has. I found out recently that there's a special change to GPZ's fight in the statue hall. The first time you do the fight after starting up the game there's enough time to dream nail him while he's still hunched over just like in the Pantheons, but on subsequent attempts the intro is slightly shorter and you can't pull it off. I would greatly appreciate this effort of shortening boss introductions when refighting them, but it's so half-assed. He still does the battlecry while his title appears which takes forever while you're locked in place, so it doesn't make any difference for saving time and if anything makes the fight fractionally harder by denying you that one dreamnail. Really wish they had gone all the way with that idea and skipped right to the action phase for all bosses when refighting them. The long introductions for PV/AR are especially painful.
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Apr 9, 2019 05:11
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So I've just killed Radiance for the first time. 48 hours in. 105%. Flower quest, Trial of the Fool, NKG, Godhome left to do. I've also been watching a Randomizer Bingo tournament (very similar to the Link to the Past one if you're familiar with that) and it's making me want to grab the PC version as well. Thought I'd post it here in case people wanted more of a HK fix but were bored of the main game. Surprise T Rex fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Apr 9, 2019 |
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Apr 9, 2019 08:56
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Pigbuster posted:Getting lost, exploring, and finding your way to a landmark is an exhilarating and wonderful experience, and it’s something that video games in general have lost in favor of a perfectly accurate GPS map and free easy teleports to anywhere you want at the drop of a hat. It really bothers me how many people want to do the same with HK, one of the few modern games to do exploration right. If Silksong has a permanent compass I can’t turn off I’ll be really disappointed. It’d be just like how all Dark Soulses after 1 went with bonfire teleports from the start and lost their satisfying exploration as a result. Anyway I like this game too much to make it sound like it was an actual, debilitating problem holding me back from enjoying the game more to not have a permanent compass. But having been out the other side a few days at this point and looking back I really think the overall "exploration" part of it is being really overstated in this discourse. Again it's both a very long game and you will spend an astronomically larger % of that time with the map fully uncovered; there were certainly times where I felt lost/alone/afraid with only my wits to guide me through an area, but that genuinely tended to end once I found Cornifer and then a bench. I also played a version of HK that had the Dream Gate and map pins available (once you found/bought them) from the start so perhaps to a certain extent I was able to look at it differently. I don't think making sprinting/geo vacuum/compass permanent inhibits getting that sort of feeling of exploration and in the long run, when you look at what you will be doing for the vast majority of your game, it would simply be slightly more convenient. Again to me Metroidvanias are often about the little, incremental victories you get along the way, and those upgrades are all moments that would *feel* good to suddenly have and not have to worry about without truly impacting the rest of the game. And in my case I think it would have actually led to trying out more charm combos. I agree that making the Compass toggable is the best middle ground; maybe just make it cost 0 slots? Make it a de facto game option you can just turn on/off at will.
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Apr 9, 2019 11:09
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I think you're misunderstanding the issue. For the vast majority of people who like that the compass requires a charm slot, it's not because they want the game to be harder and for navigation to be more difficult. It's because they like being rewarded for learning and not having to rely on the charm. A compass charm that costs 0 slots doesn't satisfy both sides, it's just an always on compass that adds some extra clutter to the charm interface and is the worst of both worlds.
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Apr 9, 2019 11:18
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I don't think 1 slot is much of a reward tbh to warrant going without it; I think I would agree if it took up something obscene like 4 slots. It's definitely sounding to me like if they had truly wanted players to go through it this way they would've just not had the compass at all. I don't think it means more clutter for the charm interface anyway, since, well, it's already in there now and it's not like that's a straw that broke the camel's back in terms of having too many charms.
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Apr 9, 2019 11:33
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If the slot doesn't matter, then just use the compass. If you want that slot, don't use the compass. It's a small cost so players who do want the compass aren't unduly punished by it, but still not free so it forces you to give something up and encourages going without. Seems like it's working as intended. I wouldn't be surprised if they expected the majority of players to use the compass for most of their first playthrough, but that doesn't mean it should be free.
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Apr 9, 2019 11:42
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It's there if people need it but if you don't you get a little something to play with more charm builds? I haven't been super closely following this discussion so maybe I'm offbase here but if 1 slot isn't a big deal to you then what's the problem
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Apr 9, 2019 11:44
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I can only speak for myself but my argument is more that had the slots been freed up, I would have tried more charm builds. The main difficulty in the game is the bosses; exploring Hallownest proper is honestly not that hard most of the time. And as such the game, via its own systems, never compelled me to really shake it up because I had no need to outside of the bosses. I went through the majority of the game's map with this build: With the increased invincibility frames charm going in last. Also in the end at least for me, this argument is largely moot. That build sufficed just fine and it was never really that much of a hassle when I had a boss to find a nearby bench and swap out the compass and the like. I don't want to make it sound like I was genuinely upset that it had to be this way and I guess I unwittingly wandered into a minefield; I've never played a From Software game, is this what that discourse is like? I also still would put the compass at like...#3 of the charms I would want permanent, below the geo vacuum and sprintmaster.
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Apr 9, 2019 11:58
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Is Sprintmaster one of the ones added in a patch? I have no idea what it does and thought people were talking about the dash twice/up one or whatever it is
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Apr 9, 2019 12:05
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You can buy it from Sly via the Grimm Troupe DLC; costs 1 and improves run speed by 20%.
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Apr 9, 2019 12:11
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Tbf the main problem is that most of the rooms are boring corridors and shafts that are way too large just to make the world feel big.
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Apr 9, 2019 12:16
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I would have played the game with the compass if it was free but since it wasn't I did not and just learned how to read the map, so there is value in it having a cost attached to it. It's a crutch that you don't really need, but which you can use if you want to, so it works out fine.
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Apr 9, 2019 12:51
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Oh poo poo, 70 new posts in the Hollow Knight thread, must be some news about the sequel! ... Oh...
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Apr 9, 2019 12:59
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I just wanted to talk about this cool game which I liked a lot with someone  With Trial of the Fool done I might do a few more pantheons, maybe MAYBE try Path of Pain, and then...that might be it. Can't wait for the sequel.
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Apr 9, 2019 13:08
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