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A lamp might help.
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May 7, 2015 23:31
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Baronjutter posted:from china There's your problem right there. If it isn't a name brand from China, it's complete crap with no quality control.
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May 8, 2015 02:03
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kid sinister posted:There's your problem right there. If it isn't a name brand from China, it's complete crap with no quality control. Yeah it was like $10 and something rattled inside.
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May 8, 2015 03:54
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Baronjutter posted:I can't touch the fixture, only change the bulb. It also has a fairly opaque glass shade over top There's your other problem. Many LED bulbs, particularly higher wattage ones, will overheat and burn out quickly in an enclosed fixture.
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May 8, 2015 15:21
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I was unplugging my gear during a thunder storm the other day, and I noticed the "grounded" light on my surge protector was no longer lit. This lead me to grab my hardware store outlet tester and discover: Open Ground for all the outlets on my side of the house (the other side of the house remained fine). Then: same outlets, 15-20 minutes later: Hot/Neutral reversed. Hours later, after the rain: Open Ground, but with the light bulb signalling "correct" flickering dimly. A little later, all "Correct". How concerned should I be? I'm not going to be addressing this problem myself, I'm a renter, and obviously I told my landlord - but getting changing readings like that (presumably linked to rain water?)seems really bad. We've got two air conditioners and a tankless electric water heater adjacent to the rooms affected. Light bulbs and an air cleaner continued to function throughout this period, but I naturally did not plug my computer back in and test it. Since then, periodic tests read fine, but we haven't had rain, if that's the problematic factor. I guess I'm just looking for a bit of educated speculation and wisdom for my own curiosity.
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May 9, 2015 20:55
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So I'm replacing some switches, since the dimmers are wearing out. I pull the cover off to find this: After some trial and error, it seems things are laid out like this:  (The one labeled "Dining Table" runs over the kitchen to another switch) Annoying jumper-wire setup aside, it seems less  than it did at first glance, but I'm reading between 110V and 130V across different combinations of hot and neutral switch terminals, which strikes me as not ideal.Am I right in thinking all the neutrals should be bonded together, rather than cut off like a few of them are? It looks like right now those 3 are completing their circuits through the ground wire, which is something I've heard mixed opinions on in various places. I'm in Florida if that matters for code or whatever.
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May 9, 2015 21:15
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Locus posted:How concerned should I be? Very. Your service entrance is hosed and if it decides to go the wrong way (like an open neutral) you have a good chance of destroying all the electronics in the house and maybe burning it down. This is a "get an electrician out there now" type of situation. It should not be difficult to determine the issue, which could be quite minor (as far as repairs go - but still major in terms of effects if left unaddressed). Top contenders are the meter base and breaker panel. I've seen leaking meter bases collect water and then conveniently route it down the EMT between it and the panel in the perfect manner to gently caress both of them up to the point of needing to be replaced. Could also be a bad weatherhead if you have overhead service, or even the triplex coming from the pole. In any case, this should be an obvious and easy diagnosis for someone who knows where to look.
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May 9, 2015 22:49
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Enourmo posted:So I'm replacing some switches, since the dimmers are wearing out. I pull the cover off to find this: No, you're absolutely correct. I would take down those fixtures to check out if the neutral wires aren't being used like you said. All of the neutrals from circuit 1 and only circuit 1 should be attached together. If they were clipped too short in the box and you can't pull out enough slack, you may need to use push on nuts to attach extensions. As for the 3 way switch leg on the right in your picture, technically that method isn't allowed anymore with /3 wire, but also the white wire should have black tape on it now to show that it's a hot carrier. If you're wondering, there was a code update a few years ago that requires all switches to have accompanying neutrals from their own circuit for adding motion sensors and other potential stuff in the future. Oh, and those 3 wire nuts in the top left of your picture could be a single nut, but it would have to be a big one. Edit: wait a tick, what amperage is the circuit breaker for circuit one? Edit2: regarding that "and only circuit 1" stuff, you definitely need to figure out which cables in that box belong on which circuits. Loose neutrals and shared neutrals with other circuits can cause that voltage screwiness that you were describing. You might be sharing neutrals inadvertantly via all the grounds too though since they're all attached together (as they should be). Try correcting your "no white wires being used" problem first, then see if your voltage returns to normal. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 23:38 on May 9, 2015 |
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May 9, 2015 23:27
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So after some finagling, I've got enough slack than I can tie all the neutrals together. Each circuit is on a 15A breaker. For that 3-way switch, would I have to pull any new cable, or just mark the white? The new switch has a ground pole, i should hook the ground wire to that instead of bundling with the others, right? Earlier when I was working out the diagram, I hooked the power cable to each fixture cable in sequence and flipped the breaker on; didn't have any crossover/two fixtures coming on when only one appeared to be hooked up, etc. Also, I don't know if you can see, but the wires are all single conductor; is that kosher? I wanna make sure before I start tying the neutrals together, in case the wiring has to be replaced.
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May 10, 2015 01:35
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For the ground, you pigtail to your new switch. You may have to get a bigger wire nut.
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May 10, 2015 02:12
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Enourmo posted:So after some finagling, I've got enough slack than I can tie all the neutrals together. Oh OK, 15A is fine. I saw a lot of 12 gauge with a single 14 gauge which got me worried that somebody put wiring they shouldn't have on a 20A circuit. The 3-way should be grandfathered in, you shouldn't need to update it. It should be fine with tape. That was a future-proofing code update, it wasn't a safety thing. All ground wires should be bundled together in any box. Another code update that I forgot in my previous response was that in a plastic box like that, you should have ground wires going from each switch's grounding screw to that big grounding bundle. It's weird, that update has been around long enough for the NM sheath colors to be standardized like that. Somebody screwed up. And you don't have single conductors, you have NM cable. And don't forget to correct the neutrals at the other ends of those cables! If the wiring was that bad, you may have to correct neutrals at boxes farther down the line, and at the next box after that, etc kid sinister fucked around with this message at 02:17 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 02:14
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So all switches AND cables share a common ground, got it. I'll get started hooking everything up proper and report back.
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May 10, 2015 02:17
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Enourmo posted:So all switches AND cables share a common ground, got it. ...for plastic junction boxes. For steel boxes, you're actually allowed to only ground the box itself, then use self-grounding devices in that box. "Self-grounding" means that those devices marked as such have a spring in one of their screw holes that always presses one of their box mounting screws against that device's steel frame, so that the device's steel frame always a definite grounding path via the metal box that it's screwed into. Self grounding or not though, it's always safer to hard wire a definite grounding path for every device you put in a box regardless of what the box is made from. Edit: if it wouldn't be too much trouble, please post a picture once you're done along with an updated MSpaint diagram. There's a lot of work we're asking you to do and we want to make sure you're not missing something. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 06:09 on May 10, 2015 |
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May 10, 2015 06:06
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Just want to repeat what Kid Sinister said in an earlier reply - need to open up those fixtures and see what's up, unbond the neutral as necessary. Personally I'd do that first, make sure they don't have the circuit wired in a(n even more) nonstandard fashion.
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May 10, 2015 06:33
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Plus, seeing that many branches on one circuit using ground as a neutral would be enough to make me question if there are other circuits like that in the house. You may want to open a few boxes on other circuits and check if they are like that too.
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May 10, 2015 21:12
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Alright, so, update: That's what it looks like now. The three switches on circuit one are ganged together with a common hot lead that's tied to power, along with power for the dining room light. I ran the built-in ground wires on the middle switches to the ground terminal on the left switch, then ran jumpers (green w/black stripe in the diagram) to the cable grounds in groups of 2, terminating at the 3way switch. More wiring made packaging a bit tighter, but I figure it's better than adding 4 ground wires to the bundle of 6 that were all held by one wire nut the way I found it. This is a plastic box so I couldn't do it the simple way that was mentioned, but whatever. The hot and neutral jumpers (marked with the red/yellow dots) are both 12ga to match the wiring to the breaker panel, ground jumpers are 14ga. I did open up the junction boxes for the fixtures in the kitchen, didn't see anything unusual so I got everything wired. HOWEVER I did pull the dining room light switch off just now on a hunch; lo and behold, the white wire is hot inside the switch box. We're on baby duty so I'm done working for the night, but I'll pull that fixture down tomorrow and take a look at what's going on in the ceiling. On the one hand the kitchen including lights was renovated about 12 years ago, so faults there don't necessarily indicate the total build quality. On the other hand... the house originally had a stab-lok panal (replaced just a few years ago under a recall something-or-other), neither bathroom has a vent fan, neither has a GFCI circuit (each has one standard outlet), the outlet in the master bathroom is wired backwards (discovered with a circuit tester I just bought today), and we seem to burn through bulbs in the outdoor porch lights abnormally fast. So... v  vPictures:    (forgive the hanging switches, I got a stool to rest them on after this picture)
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May 11, 2015 02:48
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If the fixtures were wired OK, then there has to be a junction somewhere in between where they picked up a neutral. If the white is cut loose and the ground was unbonded in the fixture, that's an open circuit and the fixtures would not have been working, based on your original drawing. As to your "hot" white wire, that could be an open neutral. Is the fixture it feeds, working now?
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May 11, 2015 03:35
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angryrobots posted:If the fixtures were wired OK, then there has to be a junction somewhere in between where they picked up a neutral. If the white is cut loose and the ground was unbonded in the fixture, that's an open circuit and the fixtures would not have been working, based on your original drawing. Yeah it worked fine when I had the switch mounted, dimmer and all. Is that an ok setup then?
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May 11, 2015 03:40
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For clarity, when you read that neutral as "hot", you took it loose from the wire nut, while the dimmer was still connected?
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May 11, 2015 05:04
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I pulled the switch off, noticed the wire nut on the switch was loose, brushed against some exposed wire and shocked the poo poo out of my hand. Opened the breaker, pulled the switch off, closed the breaker and measured voltages on the bare wires. 125 between white and the other two wires, 0 between black and bare wire; poked at the black and bare wires, felt nothing.
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May 11, 2015 05:12
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Got a question about adding a motion sensor to a room. My laundry room sits in between the garage on one end and the main hallway of the house on the other end. There's a single fluorescent light that is controlled by two switches, one in the garage and one in the hallway. Ideally I'd just replace one of the switches with one that has the built-in sensor except that both of the switches that control the light in this room are on the outside of the room. So, would something like this do the trick? http://www.amazon.com/Insteon-2842-222-Wireless-Motion-Sensor/dp/B003IHTZEO paired with this http://www.amazon.com/INSTEON-2477S-SwitchLinc-Dual-Band-Control/dp/B008HUWWOC/ref=pd_bxgy_60_text_z Assuming those would work, do I need two of the switches or will just one work?
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May 11, 2015 15:04
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Enourmo posted:I pulled the switch off, noticed the wire nut on the switch was loose, brushed against some exposed wire and shocked the poo poo out of my hand. I'm still having a hard time picturing exactly what you were looking at, maybe someone else can, or maybe append your drawing to show us? Also, want to mention again, if there is no extra junction in between the switch and the light, the neutral and ground *had* to be bonded inside the fixture somewhere, with that neutral cut loose in the switch box. The lights would not have turned on, it would be an open circuit.
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May 11, 2015 18:40
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Sleepstupid posted:Got a question about adding a motion sensor to a room. My laundry room sits in between the garage on one end and the main hallway of the house on the other end. There's a single fluorescent light that is controlled by two switches, one in the garage and one in the hallway. Ideally I'd just replace one of the switches with one that has the built-in sensor except that both of the switches that control the light in this room are on the outside of the room. So, would something like this do the trick? Rather than deal with wireless, if you're comfortable with some basic wiring just add the motion sensor to the fixture itself http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-360-Degree-Mounted-White-Motion-Sensor-Fixture-MSX12/203995562
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May 11, 2015 18:45
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Enourmo posted:I pulled the switch off, noticed the wire nut on the switch was loose, brushed against some exposed wire and shocked the poo poo out of my hand. The quick fix for this is to ground out that "hot" wire against a ground in the box. If a breaker pops, you now know where to look. If not, and you don't get significant sparking/arc/lights dimming, then it's almost certainly a shared neutral with another circuit that isn't off. That used to be legal, and now it's really tricky to do right. The 125V on a shared neutral will shock you pretty good, but unless there's a SIGNIFICANT wiring fault, can't deliver much more than about 100mA (5-50mA typical). That's plenty to kill you dead if it runs through your body wrong, but not enough for most consumer-grade testing stuff to notice, and certainly not enough to cause problems on any equipment.
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May 11, 2015 20:15
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We are buying an older (1920s) house with updated wiring: in 2005 they upgraded service to 200A and put in a new circuit breaker. Our home inspector noted some remnant knob & tube in the walls in additional to new Romex, but my understanding is that if they upgraded the breaker they would have updated the downstream wiring as well. The project was permitted so I assume it was inspected and is up to code. Is there any way that knob and tube is still live?
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May 11, 2015 22:02
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Blistering Sunburn posted:We are buying an older (1920s) house with updated wiring: in 2005 they upgraded service to 200A and put in a new circuit breaker. Our home inspector noted some remnant knob & tube in the walls in additional to new Romex, but my understanding is that if they upgraded the breaker they would have updated the downstream wiring as well. The project was permitted so I assume it was inspected and is up to code. Yes. They upgraded the service not rewired the house. This is fairly normal to make houses safer without undue burden of rewiring the house($$$$).
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May 11, 2015 22:07
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Qwijib0 posted:Rather than deal with wireless, if you're comfortable with some basic wiring just add the motion sensor to the fixture itself Thanks, I might give that a shot and return it if it looks like it's too difficult. It's got some "bad" reviews about the wiring. :P The only thing I'm worried about is that this mounts to the light itself (right?). I don't want something that will trigger motion just by someone walking down the hallway outside the laundry room. With the wireless sensor, I could angle it away from the hallway. Maybe that won't be an issue?
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May 12, 2015 01:30
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:The quick fix for this is to ground out that "hot" wire against a ground in the box. If a breaker pops, you now know where to look. If not, and you don't get significant sparking/arc/lights dimming, then it's almost certainly a shared neutral with another circuit that isn't off. That used to be legal, and now it's really tricky to do right. Tested this earlier and it sparked like the 4th of July, popped the breaker instantly. Unfortunately, my mom pulled rank and put the kibosh on any more electrical work until she leaves town for vacation on Thursday, since her computer's on the same circuit and she doesn't want to delay her (non-time-critical) tax spreadsheets.  I tried to insist but was overruled. So there won't be any updates until then.
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May 12, 2015 03:27
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Sleepstupid posted:Thanks, I might give that a shot and return it if it looks like it's too difficult. It's got some "bad" reviews about the wiring. :P It does, but it comes with two covers that are for differing heights of ceiling, so one of them will have a smaller cone of detection. You could also modify one of the two covers with thin strips of foil to block directions that are too sensitive.
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May 12, 2015 14:23
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Qwijib0 posted:It does, but it comes with two covers that are for differing heights of ceiling, so one of them will have a smaller cone of detection. You could also modify one of the two covers with thin strips of foil to block directions that are too sensitive. I'll give that a shot, thanks 
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May 12, 2015 14:35
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The Lutron maestro brand of motion sensors comes with little bits of sticky paper to discreetly cover areas you don't wish to detect. If yours doesn't come with it, you could just lightly glue paper to the portion of the detector to reduce the field of view.
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May 13, 2015 03:08
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First question: Suppose I have a 15-amp ungrounded circuit. I install a GFCI outlet on the circuit, but I decide that I would like the additional protection of grounding that outlet. So, I want to run some grounding wire. The circuit is using 14-gauge wire. Should the grounding wire be insulated or uninsulated? If insulated wire is OK, should it be solid-core or multi-stranded wire? Which of these is an acceptable method of grounding: -Running the grounding wire to another circuit that is grounded, and tying it in to the grounding wire on that circuit -Running the grounding wire to the cold-water pipes (which are copper throughout, and are definitely grounded) -Running the grounding wire to a grounding stake that is driven into the dirt under the house -Running the grounding wire all the way back to the main circuit breaker panel, and tying it into the ground bus there, bearing in mind that I have no master breaker so while I can shut off any or all of the circuits in the house, I can't shut off the service to the panel without having PG&E come out and pull the meter Second question: How important is grounding, vs. GFCI? My house has a few grounded circuits, but most of the house's outlets are on one of three ungrounded 15A circuits. I've been systematically installing GFCI outlets wherever appropriate. I understand GFCI helps to protect against being shocked, and setting the house on fire, but what about protecting electronics plugged into ungrounded outlets? And, is grounding a GFCI outlet more safe than not? What about a grounded outlet instead of a GFCI outlet: does it make sense to install GFCI where I have an already-grounded outlet?
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May 13, 2015 05:53
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Leperflesh posted:First question: It doesn't matter what kind of wire, really. If insulated, it must be green or green with yellow stripes. If bare and less than (I think) 6ga, it must be solid. You can't ground to cold-water pipes without a bunch of other stuff, but you CAN just drive a new ground rod as long as you tie your new ground rod to your already-existing grounding system. That's probably going to have to be with #1 solid-core copper wire, but it might only have to be with #14. You don't have to turn off power to tie something into the ground bus. There's no voltage or current there. Just don't go shoving that ground wire onto anything hot and you'll be fine. Household electricity can't jump out of the panel and kill you: you have to touch it for it to hurt. Grounding vs GFCI: Depending on the electronics, should be equivalent protection. Some radios use the neutral and ground differently and they can cause massive problems with GFCI outlets, but most stuff just connects the chassis to ground. This means a massive fault will energize the case and when you touch it the GFCI will trip. If the GFCI is grounded, then a fault that would energize the case will cause the GFCI to trip instantly. GFCI is to protect humans. Grounding is to provide a low-impedance current path for fault current to cause circuit protection devices to activate (problems cause popped breakers).
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May 13, 2015 06:18
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OK, thank you. I know at least one of the grounded circuits is grounded via our cold water pipe system. It's clearly been that way for a couple of decades or more. Now that I know of that, am I obliged to fix it?
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May 13, 2015 06:31
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Leperflesh posted:OK, thank you. Nope. The grandfather clause is wonderful. You can always act stupid if it turns out your locale doesn't have one. If you do work to the breaker box or are otherwise required to bring your house up to code, then yeah, you should fix it. It'd be a good idea to bond your cold water pipes to the ground system in the house. More grounding is always better. Bonding cold water pipes is done with an unbroken #6 copper run to a copper cold-water grounding clamp within 6' of where the cold water pipe comes into the house. That may end up being a lot of copper, it may not. Check out the NEC article 250 about grounding and bonding of residences and services in general.
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May 13, 2015 06:50
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Question about ceiling fan remotes. I'd like to have a remote to switch the light so I don't have to get out of bed to pull the chain. What would be great also, is if the relay would default to normally closed, so if it's already off with the remote, I could turn the wall switch off and on and turn the light on. I guess it would suck if my power blinks at 3am and turns the light on, but I'll take that chance. Do any of them work this way?
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May 13, 2015 17:48
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angryrobots posted:Question about ceiling fan remotes. The remote switches power at the lamp. The switch then becomes a way to turn the lamp off. You described a three way switch configuration.
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May 13, 2015 19:25
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Nope. The grandfather clause is wonderful. You can always act stupid if it turns out your locale doesn't have one. If you do work to the breaker box or are otherwise required to bring your house up to code, then yeah, you should fix it. It'd be a good idea to bond your cold water pipes to the ground system in the house. More grounding is always better. I need to go look again but I'm like 75% sure this was done already, by a previous owner, perhaps decades ago. We will be doing work at the breaker box this year (that is, replacing it, and installing a main breaker too). It sounds like when we do that, we'll have to pull the cold water pipe grounding anyway.
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May 13, 2015 21:47
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XmasGiftFromWife posted:No. Uh nothing i said described a 3 way circuit. The light is actually on a 3 way, not that it matters. My question was specifically if any of the little remotely switched relays that come in the kits, would default to normally closed if you flipped the wall switch off and on. Seems like a natural thing, if you come into a dark room where the light is off via the remote, and can't immediately find it. Or if the remote is lost.
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May 13, 2015 22:50
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angryrobots posted:Uh nothing i said described a 3 way circuit. The light is actually on a 3 way, not that it matters. I don't do residential so don't know about the Home Depot-level poo poo, but for commercial controls they pretty much all come with both NC and NO contacts/dip switches that let you choose behavior.
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May 13, 2015 23:00
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