Early FPS Megathread: the kids need to learn about TekWar sooner or later

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Retro Games > Early FPS Megathread: the kids need to learn about TekWar sooner or later

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Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

BattleMaster posted:

There's going to be a point where all the Doom world records stand unbroken for the rest of time and they'll all belong to Zero Master

Very likely yeah. There�s a cool speed running YouTube channel called Summoning Salt that does histories of speedruns for certain games, and I really hope he covers Doom some day. Guy references it all the time, he�s obviously familiar.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 07:10

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 05:27

catlord: Mar 22, 2009; What's on your mind, Axa?

Zaphod42 posted:

Some things have continuity, some don't, but it seems like people try to force it where it explicitly doesn't make sense sometimes.

Every final fantasy game for instance has a rich and detailed world you can be all kinds of curious about. But there's practically zero relation between numbered FFs other than moogles, chocobo, and somebody named Cid. I think that can be a good thing sometimes, to free yourself to tell completely individual stories. They have similar themes, but trying to say "okay so after FF6 their grandchildren are the characters of FFX who create the world of FF1 and FF2 then leads into..." like... they're just cool stories, you know?

Yeah, that's fair, God knows I've seen too many theories that ties everything to loving Doctor Who. Final Fantasy was something I was thinking about when writing that post (that and Halloween 3, though for a different reason), for the reason that despite them all being separate, there's connecting tissue between individual games that does suggest still greater connections, which is generally what sets fans off on connecting all of them together. Plus FF also pretty strongly suggests a multiverse, even outside of the Final Fantasy: Arena game (Dissidia? I had two games on the GBA and one time my friend handed me a controller for 6, I'm not really an expert).

Personally I think that if we get a new Quake it'd be cool to Slipgate through Hell for a setpiece or two.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 07:38

The Kins: Oct 2, 2004

Cat Mattress posted:

Well that was a rambling yarn to claim that Doom Eternal is named after Eternal Doom (that seems doubtful)

It's pretty similar, to be fair, but I doubt Bethesda's infamously-high-quality marketing teams are intimately familiar with videogame mods from 1996, or really anything that isn't a live-action "cinematic" trailer.

Cat Mattress posted:

and that the glory kill mechanics is inspired by Brutal Doom (pretty sure this was proven false).

Glory Kills started as a "sync combat" system in Doom 4 1.0 (think those bits in Wolf: TNO where you and an enemy take turns stabbing each other in the throat) then got sped up and iterated upon into its current press-butan-get-health form to encourage players to stop hiding behind cover and get into the thick of things. I wouldn't be shocked if BD was an influence on some level due to its popularity, but I think for the most part it was a separate evolutionary path.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 09:35

Rocket Pan: Nov 3, 2011; Anything can be sent, as long as it's less than 1200 bytes

The Kins posted:

It's pretty similar, to be fair, but I doubt Bethesda's infamously-high-quality marketing teams are intimately familiar with videogame mods from 1996, or really anything that isn't a live-action "cinematic" trailer.

It's quite likely that they looked up the name while deciding what to go with for licensing reasons, however because there's about a shitzillion different Doom map sets already it'd be tricky not to incidentally find a name that was already used that would make sense. Heck, even Doom's modding history has struck name conflicts and has had to resort to more interpretive naming schemes.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 09:53

Al Cu Ad Solte: Nov 30, 2005; Searching for
a righteous cause

According to Hugo Martin they went with Eternal after talking to the marketing team and realizing that everyone kept calling the last game the unwieldly "Doom 2K16" and similar stuff.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 12:42

Shoehead: Sep 28, 2005; Wassup, Choom?
Ya need sumthin'?

I dunno if it's because I'm sick atm or not but I found that article pretty hard to follow. There were a few too many run on sentences that I had to read back over.

However, I think we can all very heartily agree on one point raised. Which is gently caress Sgt Mark

# ? Aug 31, 2018 12:52

Guillermus: Dec 28, 2009

While I don't like the guy, I reckon that the earlier versions of BD were drat fun. After v11 (I think?) he started to gently caress stuff with too many features and well the gore thing.

To me it was getting back to doom at full force since I started to look more for other mods, and this thread helped with that.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 12:57

Convex: Aug 19, 2010

Dosbox main build just got an update for the first time in 5 years! Apparently minimal changes, but made because there's a new build coming out soon that might have some big sounding changes.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 14:03

The Kins: Oct 2, 2004

Convex posted:

Dosbox main build just got an update for the first time in 5 years! Apparently minimal changes, but made because there's a new build coming out soon that might have some big sounding changes.

Looking forward to briefly trying out 0.75 sometime in 2024, going "huh", then immediately going back to that old SVN build with the Windows menubar added.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 14:10

kirbysuperstar: Nov 11, 2012; Let the fools who stand before us be destroyed by the power you and I possess.

The Kins posted:

Looking forward to briefly trying out 0.75 sometime in 2024, going "huh", then immediately going back to that old SVN build with the Windows menubar added.

This.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 14:11

the cool posts kid: Jul 24, 2007

Convex posted:

Dosbox main build just got an update for the first time in 5 years! Apparently minimal changes, but made because there's a new build coming out soon that might have some big sounding changes.

huh, didn't know dosbox supported sounding in the first place

# ? Aug 31, 2018 14:25

Parachute: May 18, 2003

Arivia posted:

ZeroMaster has done that pesky thing he does where he invalidates all the Doom 2 UV-MAX records again.

i havent played doom 2 in roughly 20 years so forgive my ignorance, but what secret was revealed?

# ? Aug 31, 2018 14:36

ToxicFrog: Apr 26, 2008

Convex posted:

Dosbox main build just got an update for the first time in 5 years! Apparently minimal changes, but made because there's a new build coming out soon that might have some big sounding changes.

Oh neat! I thought dosbox was kind of in maintenance mode these days.

Zaphod42 posted:

Of course you should fill in blanks, but that doesn't mean every entry in a series has to be a direct sequel or prequel that has some relationship with the past entry's characters or story. Sometimes you can just tell a set of good stories, which each on their own individually have a full world and story and details that you can dig into and be curious about.

Some things have continuity, some don't, but it seems like people try to force it where it explicitly doesn't make sense sometimes.

With Zelda specifically I think it was kind of inevitable, because some of the games do have continuity; Zelda 1/2, OoT/MM, Oracle of Seasons/Ages, plus strong hints that the Oracles games are prequels to Link's Awakening and that OoT is a prequel to LttP. When the developers write something that looks like it almost fits together players are going to want to try to fit it together the rest of the way.

In contrast the FF games only have loose thematic connections and as far as I can see no-one gives a poo poo about trying to weld them together into a single continuity.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 14:40

The Kins: Oct 2, 2004

Parachute posted:

i havent played doom 2 in roughly 20 years so forgive my ignorance, but what secret was revealed?

It's described in the video description, but basically it's not possible to properly trigger "finding" one of the secrets in MAP15 due to the way the level geometry is set up (you step up onto a teleporter before it can happen). Zero Master found a weird bit of behaviour where having a Pain Elemental try to spawn a Lost Soul on top of you while a door's closing on your head briefly pushes you down onto the floor marked as a secret, triggering its collection and making it possible to get 100% secrets on that level without using cheat codes.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 14:46

Parachute: May 18, 2003

The Kins posted:

It's described in the video description, but basically it's not possible to properly trigger "finding" one of the secrets in MAP15 due to the way the level geometry is set up (you step up onto a teleporter before it can happen). Zero Master found a weird bit of behaviour where having a Pain Elemental try to spawn a Lost Soul on top of you while a door's closing on your head briefly pushes you down onto the floor marked as a secret, triggering its collection and making it possible to get 100% secrets on that level without using cheat codes.

thanks and yeah i kind of assumed that it was just a triggering of the text allowing you to get 100% secrets vs revealing any "new" inaccessible area or something

# ? Aug 31, 2018 14:51

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Parachute posted:

thanks and yeah i kind of assumed that it was just a triggering of the text allowing you to get 100% secrets vs revealing any "new" inaccessible area or something

That�s correct. The thing is that Doom speedruns until now have been governed by a gentleman�s agreement saying you don�t have to get all the secrets on that level because this particular secret was inaccessible. Now that it is accessible, all the old records in a bunch of categories are disqualified.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 15:36

Mordja: Apr 26, 2014; Hell Gem

So I've started playing Quake Champions and mostly it's made me realize I don't want all of that Champions bullshit, and that I've always preferred Unreal more anyways. Which UT game is currently the most popular and so hopefully the one I'll be least likely to be 100% destroyed again and again in?

# ? Aug 31, 2018 17:12

manero: Jan 30, 2006

Cat Mattress posted:

Well that was a rambling yarn to claim that Doom Eternal is named after Eternal Doom (that seems doubtful) and that the glory kill mechanics is inspired by Brutal Doom (pretty sure this was proven false).

The story I'm going to keep telling myself is that "Doom Eternal" is a dig on "Duke Nukem Forever" :colbert:

# ? Aug 31, 2018 17:17

ZogrimAteMyHamster: Dec 8, 2015

manero posted:

The story I'm going to keep telling myself is that "Doom Eternal" is a dig on "Duke Nukem Forever"

...wow, that makes enough sense to actually be a possible reason.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 17:29

Zaphod42: Sep 13, 2012; If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Al Cu Ad Solte posted:

According to Hugo Martin they went with Eternal after talking to the marketing team and realizing that everyone kept calling the last game the unwieldly "Doom 2K16" and similar stuff.

They should have realized that before they released doom 4 :colbert:

loving dumb. There's already a game called doom.

Its the same as having devil may cry 5 called "DmC" or calling the 3rd xbox "xbox one"

If naming a sequel makes it cumbersome to differentiate which product you're talking about, you seriously hosed up.

Course, lots of games have awkward or dumb names but once you're familiar with the game you don't even think about it.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 21:06

Gloomy Rube: Mar 4, 2008

Arivia posted:

That�s correct. The thing is that Doom speedruns until now have been governed by a gentleman�s agreement saying you don�t have to get all the secrets on that level because this particular secret was inaccessible. Now that it is accessible, all the old records in a bunch of categories are disqualified.

Someone in the youtube comments is replying to basically everyone saying "no, no, it just means that he did this -for fun- there's no reason they'd change the category, heh, heh" and I wonder what horse they have in this race. :v:

# ? Aug 31, 2018 21:13

chaosapiant: Oct 10, 2012; White Line Fever

So been playing Plutonia on UV with Brutal Doom. I found it goddamn impossible without either save scumming or using cheat codes.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 21:42

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

chaosapiant posted:

So been playing Plutonia on UV with Brutal Doom. I found it goddamn impossible without either save scumming or using cheat codes.

Brutal Doom is poo poo so the gameplay experience would also be poo poo, hth.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 22:04

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

for things like that i tend to recommend project brutality more because it actually gives you the tools to fight back on an equal level in a vague way of attempting to balance things instead of going 'lol good luck'

# ? Aug 31, 2018 22:07

Negostrike: Aug 15, 2015

Johnny Joestar posted:

for things like that i tend to recommend project brutality more because it actually gives you the tools to fight back on an equal level in a vague way of attempting to balance things instead of going 'lol good luck'

Better avoid using either PB or BD on Plutonia, though. Monsters behave the same way in both mods as far as I know.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 22:33

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

I feel like the audience for Brutal Doom is people who want to feel like super masculine gods of Doom but can�t finish Perfect Hatred UV-MAX.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 22:45

treat: Jul 24, 2008; by the sex ghost

Guillermus posted:

While I don't like the guy, I reckon that the earlier versions of BD were drat fun. After v11 (I think?) he started to gently caress stuff with too many features and well the gore thing.

To me it was getting back to doom at full force since I started to look more for other mods, and this thread helped with that.

Brutal Doom 64 had the same problem; the original release was excellent, and I played through the entirety of it in the span of a couple weeks. The very next version added a lot of the token Brutal Doom bullshit that only dragged it down and I was super glad to have had a chance to play it beforehand.

The tragedy of SgtMarkIV is that he fails to understand the concept of "less is more" both in his mods and in every other aspect of his life.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 23:04

site: Apr 6, 2007; Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch

Just real quick, i wanna make sure im loading everything right. Hellbound has a file in the zip called DEHACKED.txt, am i supposed to rename the file extension to .deh or is that just like a log file of what got changed and i can just play the wad?

# ? Aug 31, 2018 23:07

Shadow Hog: Feb 23, 2014; Avatar by Jon Davies

If the file reads something like

code:

# Patch File for DeHackEd v3.0
# Doom version = 21
# Patch format = 6

Then use it like a .deh file.

Also small addition to the repeated Final Fantasy comparisons being made about every sequel being a separate entity vs. continuity: ~~Gilgamesh~~ Greg is canonically the same character across every game he cameos in. He's generally only plot-relevant to V (unless you count the Hildibrand sidequest line in FFXIV that gave him the nickname "Greg" as plot to be relevant to, but since it's a sidequest I can't imagine why you would), but that game's whole multi-dimensional adventure schtick gave Squenix the opportunity to go "yeah it's the same Greg, he's just still been dimension-hopping this entire time" and they ran with it.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 23:12

Max Wilco: Jan 23, 2012; I'm just trying to go through life without looking stupid.

It's not working out too well...

StrixNebulosa posted:

A brief review of Doom 2 levels, based on my impressions of them:

- Entryway is solid Doom, a fun intro level. The outdoor area with the shotgun was rad.
- Underhalls is a really neat nested egg of a level. Returning to the hub multiple times is neat, and I like the house and just how neat it is. The music is A+.
- Gantlet - eh. It was okay, not really memorable.
- The Focus was also mediocre, and... worse, it doesn't feel like Doom? Like, it gave me the vibe of playing a different FPS game. Not really a fan.
- The Waste Tunnels: my least favorite so far. Confusing, dark (even with tweaked light settings), and just not... fun. Like, the places with the cages were neat, and getting a shot and whirling around and going "WHO SHOT ME" was neat, but I was so, so happy to leave that level behind.

I'm gonna play more today, but looking at the wiki - huh. The levels I don't like were made by American McGee, and he worked on the stuff I was meh about on the fourth episode back in Doom. Like, he can make some wicked levels, but they're just not... Doom, in the way I think of Doom. Not to my taste at all.

Whenever I try mods for Doom 2, I always play through the first couple of levels, but when I hit Waste Tunnels, my enthusiasm just evaporates, because it's such a long, tedious level.

Convex posted:

Dosbox main build just got an update for the first time in 5 years! Apparently minimal changes, but made because there's a new build coming out soon that might have some big sounding changes.

Whoa, I never thought they'd update DosBox again. I figured it had been abandoned.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 23:26

Kadorhal: Jun 3, 2013; Look, just sign the stupid petition. I've got stuff to do.

Mordja posted:

Which UT game is currently the most popular and so hopefully the one I'll be least likely to be 100% destroyed again and again in?

Impending hard drive failure is currently keeping me from actually checking myself but my best guess at this juncture is "not UT3".

I'd personally assume UT2004, since it doesn't have the issues of being older and hard to get running properly on modern hardware like 99, unavailable for sale anymore like 2003, awkwardly shoehorned into also being Unreal 3 like UT3, or overshadowed by Fortnite like UT4, but the downside is only about 10% of the servers still up are not Onslaught mode and only about half of those are ever populated.

I recently learned the clan that owned one of my old favorite UT2004 servers is still around 14 years later, which is pretty cool considering every time I've ever tried actually joining a clan myself it invariably just sort of silently collapsed within a week, but their actual Assault server I always played on I don't think I've seen up since 2006.

Shadow Hog posted:

(unless you count the Hildibrand sidequest line in FFXIV that gave him the nickname "Greg" as plot to be relevant to, but since it's a sidequest I can't imagine why you would)

I'm going off topic but I can't imagine why you wouldn't count anything involving Hildibrand

EDIT:

Max Wilco posted:

Whenever I try mods for Doom 2, I always play through the first couple of levels, but when I hit Waste Tunnels, my enthusiasm just evaporates, because it's such a long, tedious level.

I think I've played Waste Tunnels normally five times, and most of those were before I discovered source ports. Every time I go through the game nowadays I just beeline for the blue key door and jump in through one of the windows to the side.

Kadorhal fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Aug 31, 2018

# ? Aug 31, 2018 23:27

catlord: Mar 22, 2009; What's on your mind, Axa?

Max Wilco posted:

Whenever I try mods for Doom 2, I always play through the first couple of levels, but when I hit Waste Tunnels, my enthusiasm just evaporates, because it's such a long, tedious level.

When I finally played Doom 2 through to completion, I took advantage of jumping and crouching just to skip Waste Tunnels. I hate that level.

# ? Aug 31, 2018 23:31

Shadow Hog: Feb 23, 2014; Avatar by Jon Davies

Kadorhal posted:

I'm going off topic but I can't imagine why you wouldn't count anything involving Hildibrand

I mean I love the Hildibrand questlines and hate that Heavensward and Stormblood have limited the amount of Hildibrand to one single quest per major patch (and they're not even long quests), but about the most impact the sidequest has had on the plot is bringing us Godbert Manderville, who actually has interactions with the main scenario quests (even if they're as minor as telling the Sultana her plan for the people of Ala Mhigo won't work, and helping her brainstorm an alternative).

# ? Aug 31, 2018 23:31

StrixNebulosa: Feb 14, 2012; You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA

Today I sat down and in a fit of pique I went and played Nuts.wad and beat it. It was neat to experience it - and to not just pop in and get the joke and then die, but to actually play it properly. The placement of the different blocks of monsters was pretty neat, and the second half was a hoot. For a joke level, it was actually kinda fun, and I'm glad I put in the time for it.

e: Oh and it's still funny that years later, even a modern laptop has problems with keeping the framerate up when all of the demons are active.

quote:

Because of the number of guys, the game may crash. In fact, i'm pretty drat sure the game is gonna crash. I can almost guarantee it. This wad is so memory needy that I'll be shocked and surprised if the game doesn't completely gently caress right up.

I'm gonna see if nuts2 and nuts3 are playable. :getin:

StrixNebulosa fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Aug 31, 2018

# ? Aug 31, 2018 23:45

BaconCopter: Feb 13, 2008

As a kid who only got to play Dark Forces and not Doom, I can finally say that I have beaten the game on Hard without cheating. God drat levels with non-Imperials are rough, loving nade and conc rifle spam.

# ? Sep 1, 2018 03:21

Casimir Radon: Aug 2, 2008

BaconCopter posted:

As a kid who only got to play Dark Forces and not Doom, I can finally say that I have beaten the game on Hard without cheating. God drat levels with non-Imperials are rough, loving nade and conc rifle spam.

Then there are the turrets...

# ? Sep 1, 2018 03:26

Shoehead: Sep 28, 2005; Wassup, Choom?
Ya need sumthin'?

Shoehead posted:

I dunno if it's because I'm sick atm or not but I found that article pretty hard to follow. There were a few too many run on sentences that I had to read back over.

However, I think we can all very heartily agree on one point raised. Which is gently caress Sgt Mark

Wait actually I do have one point to bring up. Which is that while it may seem like Glory Kills are cribbed from BD's finishers, they are a direct evolution of the Sync Melee system Id made for the Doom 4 prototype. I've no idea what year the vertical slice footage from Noclip is from though, but you could very well be looking at convergent evolution.

Also it's 4am and I can't sleep so I might be talking bollocks

# ? Sep 1, 2018 04:41

ETPC: Jul 10, 2008; Wheel with it.

id could have completely ripped the code 1:1 from brutal doom and i would cheer them on

# ? Sep 1, 2018 04:48

ponzicar: Mar 17, 2008

Shoehead posted:

Wait actually I do have one point to bring up. Which is that while it may seem like Glory Kills are cribbed from BD's finishers, they are a direct evolution of the Sync Melee system Id made for the Doom 4 prototype. I've no idea what year the vertical slice footage from Noclip is from though, but you could very well be looking at convergent evolution.

Also it's 4am and I can't sleep so I might be talking bollocks

Aren't there also tons of other games that let you finish off enemies in a special manner? The original God of War is the first thing that comes to mind.

# ? Sep 1, 2018 04:49

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 05:27

Johnny Joestar: Oct 21, 2010; Don't shoot him?

...
...

glory kills are an old as poo poo mechanic in games by this point so i don't know why people default to them having apparently taken it from brutal doom of all things

i mean realistically i do get why but it's dumb as hell

# ? Sep 1, 2018 04:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Retro Games > Early FPS Megathread: the kids need to learn about TekWar sooner or later

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