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Biffmotron posted:Operation Lam Son 719 was the major effort by US/ARVN forces to directly cut the Ho Chi Minh trail with a ground invasion in 1971. It was overall a fiasco. The plan was simple, an armored blitz up Route 9 to raid the city of Tchepone, supported by airmobile units taking strategic hills to guard the route, with US airpower knocking out enemy concentrations. It was a fiasco for a bunch of reasons: Tchepone was the clear objective and an attack along a single bad road is difficult even for crack troops, which ARVN very much was not. The communist were able to move reinforcements in, and gained a substantial advantage in numbers. As the attack stalled out and casualties mounted, Lam Son turned into an utter rout. Command and control broke down, resupply helicopters were decimated by AA, the hilltop firebases were overrun, and final casualties somewhere between 'very high' and 'utterly annihilated.' ARVN's problems were myriad and complex but I think a lot of it came down to how it had to get so big so fast. The US wanted to use it like a regular army which meant that instead of troops fighting around home, they'd be shuffled around for various operations. Their leadership was poor, but then the US Army's leadership wasn't that amazing, either. I imagine it's a bit of a bias of the literature but one gets the impression of US leadership in the field and at the division level being aggressively mediocre and prone to blame things like ARVN for their own problems.
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Oct 18, 2016 11:31
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USMC_Karl posted:I always figured that cannons would be loud and scary devices, and canister was probably better for "close" anti-personnel fighting, I just didn't think it would be as effective as the logistics it required. It's not like military commanders in the past were idiots. Artillery became a thing (and more and more of a thing over time, expanding from its initial niche of being useful in sieges) because having artillery in your army was useful.
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Oct 18, 2016 11:32
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HEY GAL posted:
There's more to it than that.   Also Biffmorton, that was impressive. ThisIsJohnWayne fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 11:39
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Thank you for the detailed answer. I've read David Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest before, but I'm only just now getting into the weeds of the Vietnam War. I wanted to start with Hell In a Very Small Place, as Dien Bien Phu is what really sparked my interest, but the book was a bit too expensive for my budget so I picked up Gregg Jones's Last Stand At Khe Sanh instead for now.
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Oct 18, 2016 11:48
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Tias posted:Jesus christ Swedish people are terrifying Poltava was what happened when you have insane discipline and an insane king in the charge. The Battle of Napue (Sturkyrö) was more of the same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Storkyro Depending on the source it had somewhere between 1600 and 3000 men out of about 5000 of the Swedish Army killed, the last field army of Sweden in Finland destroyed and Finland occupied for 7 years. Quote from the wiki article about the fighting "The battle at close quarters was carried out with swords, bayonets and spears, and soon there were so many killed and wounded men that it was difficult to get over them and carry on the attack.".
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Oct 18, 2016 11:59
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*exaggerated yawn, rolls eyes* wake me up when you learn how to attack from somewhere other than right in front of me should have cited wittstock, my man
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Oct 18, 2016 12:07
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MikeCrotch posted:Earlier in the war destroyers didn't have as much of an AA presence, and pretty much were continuing their role from WWI in being anti-submarine escort ships and threatening big ships with their torpedo tubes. Destroyers definitely were involved in surface actions, Not only subs and big ships but 
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Oct 18, 2016 12:35
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HEY GAL posted:*exaggerated yawn, rolls eyes* wake me up when you learn how to attack from somewhere other than right in front of me 'Es ist alles im Kriege sehr einfach, aber das Einfachste ist schwierig.' -C, chapter 7 (the Friction) the breaks went better at Breitenfeld 2 than at Wittstock, min käraste fru
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Oct 18, 2016 12:41
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HEY GAL posted:*exaggerated yawn, rolls eyes* wake me up when you learn how to attack from somewhere other than right in front of me Swedes (featuring Savolax regiment, yay us!) - making a holy man holier than before. Ataxerxes fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Oct 18, 2016 |
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Oct 18, 2016 12:46
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10+ Akizuki-class destroyers using "big blue blanket" techniques would have made the Kido Butai almost invincible in 1942. Of course, this is an impossible scenario, but the Japanese had some really great destroyers.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:15
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Not really, considering that CAP coordination was a fundamental problem and not just because of reaction time due to the lack of pickets.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:27
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Not really, considering that CAP coordination was a fundamental problem and not just because of reaction time due to the lack of pickets. Radar-equipped picket boats far out from the carriers would have solved the fundamental problem of not knowing about a dive bomber attack until it was streaking past the bridge windows.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:46
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How good were Japanese aircraft search radars? Since they didn't have surface radar on their battleships, I would be inclined to doubt they had capable radar sets on loads of destroyers.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:47
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:How good were Japanese aircraft search radars? Since they didn't have surface radar on their battleships, I would be inclined to doubt they had capable radar sets on loads of destroyers. In 1942 the US was having a hard time managing battles from the air search radars on their carriers. Integrated pickets with radar and a system that worked to include them is a monumental ask, especially for Japan.
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Oct 18, 2016 20:56
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:10+ Akizuki-class destroyers using "big blue blanket" techniques would have made the Kido Butai almost invincible in 1942. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJXYMDu6dpY
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Oct 19, 2016 00:31
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Speaking of Japanese ships, is anyone else weirded out by Kantai Collection?
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Oct 19, 2016 01:06
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Yes but we had this conversation last thread. There's not really much to say.
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Oct 19, 2016 01:07
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At least it's not Hetalia.
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Oct 19, 2016 01:10
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Did you end up writing the effort post on the Crusades, or did the project get shelved?
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Oct 19, 2016 01:12
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Elyv posted:Did you end up writing the effort post on the Crusades, or did the project get shelved? Real life has been consistently interfering with all my attempts to sit down and write the drat thing.
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Oct 19, 2016 01:13
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Please recommend me a book on this dude Baron Friedrich Wilhelm Rudolf Gerhard August Von Steuben
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Oct 19, 2016 01:26
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Mycroft Holmes posted:Speaking of Japanese ships, is anyone else weirded out by Kantai Collection? On the less dumb area of this subject, some dude who served in the 2nd World War did some stuff based on his more average service as a Japanese soldier in that war and I want to find the name of that fucker. I am still sad that Sturmtruppen hasn't been translated from Italian yet too.
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Oct 19, 2016 01:32
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Waroduce posted:Please recommend me a book on this dude just ask any NCO in the US army and he'll tell you everything you ever wanted to know and then some* *may not be 100% accurate
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Oct 19, 2016 01:40
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SeanBeansShako posted:On the less dumb area of this subject, some dude who served in the 2nd World War did some stuff based on his more average service as a Japanese soldier in that war and I want to find the name of that fucker.
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Oct 19, 2016 01:42
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SeanBeansShako posted:On the less dumb area of this subject, some dude who served in the 2nd World War did some stuff based on his more average service as a Japanese soldier in that war and I want to find the name of that fucker. Shigeru Mizuki? e: of all the things to get beat on... P-Mack fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Oct 19, 2016 |
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Oct 19, 2016 01:43
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HEY GAL posted:are you thinking of shigeru mizuki? Oooh, it has a TV drama? yeah, that is the one.
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Oct 19, 2016 01:44
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Radar-equipped picket boats far out from the carriers would have solved the fundamental problem of not knowing about a dive bomber attack until it was streaking past the bridge windows. Read shattered sword and get back to me
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Oct 19, 2016 04:41
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Stupid question, but is the US Marine Corps actually a "corps" in the organizational sense? Like, how large is it/what's their OOB look like?
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Oct 19, 2016 04:47
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:10+ Akizuki-class destroyers using "big blue blanket" techniques would have made the Kido Butai almost invincible in 1942. Of course, this is an impossible scenario, but the Japanese had some really great destroyers. They still would have had the "we need to warm the planes up below decks" and "welp everyone with firefighting training died in the hangar" and assorted other issues (like hangar deck bays that didn't have the ability to vent fumes and/or explosions out the side) that doomed their carriers. There was so much stacked against the Kido Butai from the moment they set sail that nothing could have saved them short of somehow being perfect AA gunners who didn't let a single bomb fall on the flattops.
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Oct 19, 2016 04:49
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FAUXTON posted:They still would have had the "we need to warm the planes up below decks" and "welp everyone with firefighting training died in the hangar" and assorted other issues Not to mention the "Everybody in a plane fly towards the nearest hostile target without actually bothering to coordinate CAP in any sort of organized and coherent fashion" problem.
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Oct 19, 2016 04:55
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Read shattered sword and get back to me The only thing I don't like about Shattered Sword is how he talks constantly about how unreliable Japanese sources are but accepts the ones that back up his points without any qualifications.
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Oct 19, 2016 05:42
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USMC_Karl posted:
Whatever fire control solution your ships system output was transmitted to the turrets as elevation and train orders. There would be dials in the turret with a pointer indicating these values, and a trainer and elevator assigned to operate the training and elevation equipment to bring the turret and guns to the correct setting by matching their T&E pointer to the one from fire control. There was a bit of room for human error in this system. One of the advances that made USN fire control so good was semi-automatic operation of the turrets. If the firing keys were kept depressed in main battery plot the guns would cycle as fast as the turret crews could load them.
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Oct 19, 2016 05:47
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HEY GAL posted:are you thinking of shigeru mizuki? Went pawing around his wiki pages, found an article that has an educational comic about WWII atrocities he did at the bottom.
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Oct 19, 2016 05:50
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:The only thing I don't like about Shattered Sword is how he talks constantly about how unreliable Japanese sources are but accepts the ones that back up his points without any qualifications. I think it's necessary to qualify Japanese sources for some of the book as unreliable because they were gained after the fact by people trying to cover their asses for losing four carriers in a day. Unless the IJN admiral was running from boat to boat with a satchel full of maps and orders and telex tape or what have you, little hard copy sources survived in the same way things survived on the US ships because they did not burn uncontested for several hours and then sink. My reading of it is that it came down to the sheer dumb luck of some dive bomber pilots who decided they'd seize a fleeting opportunity and managed to dump 500 pounders into extremely vulnerable parts of the enemy ship while diving under fire and just releasing to get the hell out of there. The luck and coincidence angle gets pushed really heavily up to the part where the carriers start burning, and then the explanation of things like "well there was a dedicated DC team and nobody else knew how to put out a fire and they all went into the engine room and died" being systemic doom spelt out for the IJN ships on scene.
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Oct 19, 2016 07:08
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gradenko_2000 posted:Thank you for the detailed answer. I've read David Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest before, but I'm only just now getting into the weeds of the Vietnam War. I wanted to start with Hell In a Very Small Place, as Dien Bien Phu is what really sparked my interest, but the book was a bit too expensive for my budget so I picked up Gregg Jones's Last Stand At Khe Sanh instead for now. You're welcome. I mostly lurk, because what I know about pikes and panzers came out of this thread, but I read a lot about the Vietnam War because I find the relative moral clarity and purpose of an decades long land war in Asia refreshing compared to writing a dissertation. Starting at the beginning and going year by year is a pretty good way to go, but for my money the two best overviews of the war are Sheehan's A Bright Shining Lie and Trương Như Tảng's A Vietcong Memoir, which cover the command perspectives and disillusionment of two men deeply involved on opposite sides of the war.
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Oct 19, 2016 07:45
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So Il-102 was planned and understandably never accepted in 1982. What the hell were they thinking when they were making it? Day 60 Bomb Truck against peasants resisting collectivization?
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Oct 19, 2016 10:14
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Biffmotron posted:writing a dissertation. welcome though, it's always great to hear a new voice in this thread. everyone should come to this thread and 
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Oct 19, 2016 11:45
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FAUXTON posted:They still would have had the "we need to warm the planes up below decks" and "welp everyone with firefighting training died in the hangar" and assorted other issues (like hangar deck bays that didn't have the ability to vent fumes and/or explosions out the side) that doomed their carriers. There was so much stacked against the Kido Butai from the moment they set sail that nothing could have saved them short of somehow being perfect AA gunners who didn't let a single bomb fall on the flattops. Basically the moment they sailed into range of Midway they were in a trap and Nagumo's decisions were mostly dictated by the situation and the experience at Coral Sea. The only possible counterfactual that makes sense would've been for the Japanese to redirect their Midway strike at a vague sighting. They actually attacked a vague sighting at Coral Sea and wasted an attack on a destroyer and fleet oiler, so it's understandable that they would not have wanted to give up surprise at Midway for what probably would've been a similar target.
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Oct 19, 2016 11:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:Stupid question, but is the US Marine Corps actually a "corps" in the organizational sense? Like, how large is it/what's their OOB look like? The Marine Corps is about a fifth the size of the US Army in terms of personnel (including reservists on both sides), but that's kind of complicated by the fact that the Marines have organic fixed wing elements as well as the ground forces. The main forces of the Marines are the three Marine Expeditionary Forces which are made up of a ground division, an air wing and all the supporting elements. So overall you are looking at three divisions plus air support, although that's complicated again by the fact that the Marines have a lot of small responsibilities dotted all over the shop (like guarding embassies and ships) and are not just limited to the MEFs. So I guess you could roughly describe it as corps sized, although these days corps is a pretty meaningless term since they vary wildly in size and the number of divisions/brigades they contain.
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Oct 19, 2016 11:53
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I think you lot( especially HEYGAL) will have a kick out of this: Apparently the Germans have their own version of the Sovereign Citizen movement, only a lot dumber and more German, of course. E: HEY GAL posted:naaah Come to think of it, Danes also only know the frontal assault  Oh well, works well enough from a longboat if the mark doesn't see you coming 
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Oct 19, 2016 12:25
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