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System Metternich posted:That's Archbishop Georg Gänswein (bishops are purple, cardinals are red) who managed the rare feat of being private secretary to two popes at the same time Yeah I googled "pink Roman Catholic clergy hat" and didn't find anything. I guess I'm just not very good at distinguishing colors.
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Mar 22, 2017 17:55
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Yeah I googled "pink Roman Catholic clergy hat" and didn't find anything. I guess I'm just not very good at distinguishing colors. It's always hard to tell in gifs whether the color is real or an artifact of crappy compression. Don't worry too much  .
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Mar 22, 2017 18:23
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System Metternich posted:
Good for Arthur
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Mar 22, 2017 18:55
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a horrible idea appears on the horizon--if Bartholomew were a tyrant, he could make decisions on his own! it would be so easy just to tell others what to do... https://www.thenationalherald.com/153666/enhancing-role-ecumenical-patriarch/ anyone who thinks the job of the Church is "addressing issues" is wrong, much less "addressing new issues."
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Mar 22, 2017 19:42
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HEY GAIL posted:a horrible idea appears on the horizon--if Bartholomew were a tyrant, he could make decisions on his own! it would be so easy just to tell others what to do... While I think the history of Catholicism shows that a stronger hierarchy does not really seem to help a whole lot with addressing issues in general, saying that the role of the Church isn't to address issues is odd to me. What are Churches for if not to help people in their spiritual, or perhaps material, lives? Or do you mean something else?
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Mar 22, 2017 20:06
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OwlFancier posted:While I think the history of Catholicism shows that a stronger hierarchy does not really seem to help a whole lot with addressing issues in general, saying that the role of the Church isn't to address issues is odd to me.
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Mar 22, 2017 20:11
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Really? Huh, I mean, thats exactly the sort of thing I look to my beliefs to figure out, if my beliefs were religious/community based I'd, well, I'd probably look to that community for counsel. It's not like we can escape politics. I'm using Church as in, the community rather than the building or even necessarily the hierarchy so I would agree that making the Church more command-focused seems... entirely tangential to the issue but I certainly wouldn't think it strange or problematic for a Church to offer an opinion on political matters given that politics is kind of the mass response to everyday problems. Though the person writing the article certainly seems to want a Roman Dictator for Orthodoxy which... uh... is a bit concerning. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Mar 22, 2017 |
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Mar 22, 2017 20:24
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OwlFancier posted:Really? Huh, I mean, thats exactly the sort of thing I look to my beliefs to figure out, if my beliefs were religious/community based I'd, well, I'd probably look to that community for counsel. Are you familiar with Early Modern European history? There are definite reasons the Church takes a step back from directly proclaiming on political matters.
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Mar 22, 2017 22:44
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There's political matters and there's the fact that all Orthodox churches couldn't even get together for a nice little meeting to align on some mostly internal issues. The official programme listed the following: · The mission of the Orthodox Church in today’s world · The Orthodox diaspora · Autonomy and the means by which it is proclaimed · The sacrament of marriage and its impediments · The importance of fasting and its observance today · Relations of the Orthodox church with the rest of the Christian world They even decided not to go into the whole calendar dispute, and still not everyone was on board with even showing up just to show some unity among churches. Which, I think, in itself is also an issue. I'm not saying that giving the Ecumenical Patriarch more power is the right way to go about it, but saying that there's no need to address issues even in the face of a growing distance between individual churches in my mind is absurd. All those issues may be in their essence the same as a thousand years ago, but it doesn't mean there is no need to revisit them and that the same approach is going to work now. The Catholic Church, for example, doesn't see establishing Uniate Churches as the ideal way to accept large amounts of converts at once anymore, because historically it created many problems both for the Uniate Churches, as well as for other local Christian communities. Even now Ukraine experiences consequences of this. On the other hand, because there is no all-Orthodox discussion on autonomy of local churches, there's a problem of the Russian Patriarch who tacitly supports Putin being in charge of the church in a country that suffers because of Putin's political ambitions. I guess you can just wait until all Ukrainians leave for non-canonical churches or Russians completely splinter from the rest of the Orthodoxy, but that's hardly a real solution.
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Mar 23, 2017 02:19
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Doesn't the EP *already* have enough power by being first among equals? So it should be within his jurisdiction to mediate disputes between the different autocephalous and decide on them within the context of a conclave? The problem seems to be that Russia is just like "nah we ain't showing up much less listening to you." I'm not sure what extending the EP's powers would even do in this case, since the problem isn't jurisdictional but just that the Russian Orthodox Church won't even cooperate.
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Mar 23, 2017 03:02
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Paladinus posted:saying that there's no need to address issues even in the face of a growing distance between individual churches in my mind is absurd. All those issues may be in their essence the same as a thousand years ago, but it doesn't mean there is no need to revisit them and that the same approach is going to work now. edit: the Orthodox Church has also historically refrained from making things, even things that most people believe, "doctrine."
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Mar 23, 2017 03:40
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Just got done with Westworld. Has there ever been a Christian allegory for robot revolution? (The Calvinist take would be weird as poo poo)
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Mar 23, 2017 07:06
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StashAugustine posted:Just got done with Westworld. Has there ever been a Christian allegory for robot revolution? (The Calvinist take would be weird as poo poo) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sorcerer%27s_Apprentice ?
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Mar 23, 2017 07:13
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HEY GAIL posted:i am also saying that "make a statement" is and always has been code for "say you hate those gays, trans people, and uppity women as much as we do." it's not only that statements probably do not need to be made, it's that when they are they usually have horrific effects. Look at the Old Believer schism, Nikon broke the Russians in half to make "reforms" that were pretty much pointless. Is this really a great example, though? I mean, Nikon's decision wasn't related to worldly politics, but Orthodox practices within Russia. As an aside, from wikipedia: quote:Nikon criticized severely the use of such new-fangled icons; he ordered a house-to-house search for them to be made. His soldiers and servants were charged first to gouge out the eyes of these heretical counterfeits and then carry them through the town in derision. He also issued an ukase threatening with the severest penalties all who dared to make or use such icons in future. Gross.
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Mar 23, 2017 11:26
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HEY GAIL posted:i am also saying that "make a statement" is and always has been code for "say you hate those gays, trans people, and uppity women as much as we do." it's not only that statements probably do not need to be made, it's that when they are they usually have horrific effects. Look at the Old Believer schism, Nikon broke the Russians in half to make "reforms" that were pretty much pointless. Well, maybe it would then make sense to proclaim that the opposite is true, or at least that believing the opposite is permissible. The Anglican community faces the same challenge with local communities no longer sharing the same beliefs, but at least they try to mitigate it somehow, discuss what full communion between them means and whether or not it's important to have it at all. For the Orthodox Church, refraining from doctrinal proclamations is only as old as the Great Schism. Before that everyone was mostly okay with 'addressing issues' on Ecumenical Councils, I think. And those not only codified 'new' doctrines, but also affirmed existing ones in light of current events. So what would be so bad about doing the same thing now? Has the world really changed less in the last 1200 years, than it'd changed in 100 years between the sixth and the seventh Ecumenical Councils? As for Nikon's reform, it's a bit of an oversimplification to say that all Old Believers were motivated by the changes in rituals. There are groups of varying views inside of their community, from parishes comparable to SSPX who nominally recognise the Patriarchor even in full communion with ROC to groups that defy priesthood altogether or fell into one heresy or the other. Without arguing about finer points of the reform, it's its haphazard implementation and existing conflicts within the Russian church that lead to the schism, not the reform itself.
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Mar 23, 2017 11:29
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But they fell after the mainstream church drove them out. Driving innocent people to a situation where they feel like that's what they have to do is horrible.
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Mar 23, 2017 12:13
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HEY GAIL posted:But they fell after the mainstream church drove them out. Driving innocent people to a situation where they feel like that's what they have to do is horrible. Once again, the problem lies with how the reforms were implemented. Adopting liturgical practices of your historical mother church is hardly all that controversial. If the same ritual is valid when a Greek priest performs it, how does one reaches the conclusion that when performed by a Russian priest, it causes him to forfeit apostolic succession? And Nikon and the Greek scholars he consulted have made the same sweeping judgement about the old rite, too, don't get me wrong. The lack of proper all-Orthodox communication on liturgical reforms is to blame here. Nikon simply couldn't be held accountable by any authority. I don't believe there are any official statements on Old Believers by non-Russian churches, so the general rule appears to be that if the Russians consider them schismatics, so do all other churches. How does it make it better?
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Mar 23, 2017 12:58
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 The Orthodox have seriously upped their hat game, dang
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Mar 23, 2017 18:08
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System Metternich posted:
I refuse to believe this isn't a party at an ecumenical gay bar.
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Mar 23, 2017 18:14
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System Metternich posted:
It would certainly require strong faith to wear it outdoors, unless you have someone following behind you with an even taller earthed metal stick.
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Mar 23, 2017 18:40
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I suspect it's not actually a hat.
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Mar 23, 2017 19:26
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loving Kiril, bruh https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/03/steve-bannon-american-evangelicals-russian-orthodox/519900/ (edit: the author appears not to realize that there is a difference of opinion within the Orthodox Church itself on all of this. Like many people who report on the church from outside, they also seem to think Russia runs the Church--a viewpoint which Russia is only too happy to promulgate.) (edit 2: I wonder why Greece hasn't gone this way? Things suck over there, but the people you see going to the conferences Russia puts on are either useful American idiots, ex-Calvinists all, or people from Georgia or the -stans or something. I guess Greece isn't trying to throw its weight around abroad, that probably has something to do with it.) HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Mar 26, 2017 |
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Mar 24, 2017 05:35
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Paladinus posted:I suspect it's not actually a hat.
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Mar 24, 2017 05:47
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tfw you're drunk enough to begin expounding on thematic similarities between Brideshead Revisited and Westworld
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Mar 24, 2017 07:18
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HEY GAIL posted:(edit 2: I wonder why Greece hasn't gone this way? Things suck over there, but the people you see going to the conferences Russia puts on are either useful American idiots, ex-Calvinists all, or people from Georgia or the -stans or something. I guess Russia isn't trying to throw its weight around abroad, that probably has something to do with it.) Things suck, but not as bad as in Russia. Also Russia and the Russian church have the historical background of messing around abroad/seeing itself as the true centre of Orthodoxy (it's the third Rome, after all) that Greece simply doesn't have. Also if I had to guess I would think that the Russian Orthodox narrative of a post-Soviet resurgence plays into it as well, they probably don't know what to do with all their own perceived strength right now, whereas the Greek Church always comfortably stayed in its sort-of fusion with the Greek state, and a long-time state church mostly tends to be bureaucratic and, you know, a bit boring. That said, I'm pretty sure that I've read somewhere about Greek priests growing increasingly conservative as well, maybe I'll find it again.
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Mar 24, 2017 08:17
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HEY GAIL posted:anything is a hat if you want it to be in my wet days I had a trick to carry any sort of beer or drink on my head, turns out I have kind of a flat spot on top that fits most beverages
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Mar 24, 2017 08:55
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Tias posted:in my wet days I had a trick to carry any sort of beer or drink on my head, turns out I have kind of a flat spot on top that fits most beverages 
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Mar 24, 2017 09:01
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much less stable, but you've got the right idea. I mostly communicated in boops, too
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Mar 24, 2017 09:03
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HEY GAIL posted:loving Kiril, bruh Well, not completely, but ROC's higher-ups at the very least very much approve of the current state of symphonia in Russia. But this also means that no one is going to join any openly anti-Islamic alliance officially any time soon. Russia is a multi-cultural country where Islam is the second most prominent religion after Orthodox Christianity. The obvious difference between America and Russia in that regard is that the vast majority of Muslims are native Russian citizens, or at the very least moved to Russia from some ex-USSR country, and local leaders of Russian regions with a Muslim majority also show unwavering support of Moscow. No one needs to be part of this Western cultural conflict, especially with Chechen wars still fresh in everyone's memory.
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Mar 24, 2017 09:12
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System Metternich posted:That said, I'm pretty sure that I've read somewhere about Greek priests growing increasingly conservative as well, maybe I'll find it again. Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew was threatening to excommunicate a few for using violent anti-LGBT rhetoric (reminiscent of the very typical "west is all homonazis destroying Orthodox values" style reminiscent of some of the stuff coming out of the Russian Orthodox Church) pretty recently. Which mostly got in the news because it's questionable if EP Bartholomew even has the power to do that.
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Mar 24, 2017 10:57
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The Phlegmatist posted:Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew was threatening to excommunicate a few for using violent anti-LGBT rhetoric (reminiscent of the very typical "west is all homonazis destroying Orthodox values" style reminiscent of some of the stuff coming out of the Russian Orthodox Church) pretty recently. Which mostly got in the news because it's questionable if EP Bartholomew even has the power to do that. also i doubt this will ever come to a head in Greece one way or the other because Greece isn't a world power, but I don't want to look like the dumb American here so I'll withhold comment and hope a Greek goon wanders past to set me straight
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Mar 24, 2017 11:13
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HEY GAIL posted:wouldn't it be their own bishops? i could pull something straight out of my rear end and say that technically, the russian people have the power (and the obligation) to rein in their patriarch if he's going off the rails, like the athenian mob that prevented that one ecumenical patriarch from modernizing the church in the 1920s, rodrigo diaz knows more about this then i do. but like hell that's going to happen given how informed they probably are.
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Mar 25, 2017 00:29
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I read over the letter that the EP sent again and he actually threatened to break communion with a few troublesome metropolitan sees in the Church of Greece that harbor a bunch of rabid hyperdox priests that are notorious for stirring up poo poo. The Church of Greece never responded as far as I know. This would be within his power, but I don't know what the practical effects would be. The Church of Greece is autocephalous and it's not like they're the ones excommunicating them. Yes, they used to be under the Patriarch of Constantinople but they haven't been for over a hundred years now. It'd be equivalent to the Patriarch of Moscow breaking communion with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America's Metropolis of Boston or something.
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Mar 25, 2017 13:08
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well who runs the Church of Greece? send them a letter
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Mar 25, 2017 22:44
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What relationship is there between the Greek Orthodox church and the ongoing financial crisis there? Is it seen as a support system that softens the blow? Or is it just not much of a player?
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Mar 26, 2017 02:01
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Orthogoons, I've been reading a prayer book from the ROCOR, and I have a question about it. The morning prayers in particular seem really, really extensive. My question is, do most Orthodox Christians really recite such extensive prayers (like 30 pages!) on a regular basis, or is it usually a more compact version? I've been reading a lot of Luther stuff lately, so it seems much more extensive. If one does engage in such hard-core practice, is it an awesome help for development of faith, etc.?
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Mar 26, 2017 10:02
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cerror posted:Orthogoons, I've been reading a prayer book from the ROCOR, and I have a question about it. The morning prayers in particular seem really, really extensive. My question is, do most Orthodox Christians really recite such extensive prayers (like 30 pages!) on a regular basis, or is it usually a more compact version? I've been reading a lot of Luther stuff lately, so it seems much more extensive. If one does engage in such hard-core practice, is it an awesome help for development of faith, etc.?
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Mar 26, 2017 10:47
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HEY GAIL posted:you may pick one or several of those prayers if you want. i don't pray them, but i try to remember god throughout the day and thank it. sometimes I say the Jesus prayer. Thanks! That seems a more pragmatic approach.
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Mar 26, 2017 10:56
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Similar to the Liturgy of the Hours, I don't think laypeople are expected to pray all of them daily at all, but if one prepares for Communion, for example, they are expected to pray more.
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Mar 26, 2017 12:09
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CountFosco posted:What relationship is there between the Greek Orthodox church and the ongoing financial crisis there? Is it seen as a support system that softens the blow? Or is it just not much of a player? I haven't seen too much from the Church of Greece itself; either they don't comment on the political situation or English-language media simply doesn't cover it. They are running soup kitchens and stuff though despite the awful economy reducing the amount of tithes they receive. The Greek financial crisis is actually creating a vocations crisis though! Why? Because the government of Greece pays the salaries of the clergy, and they're obviously pretty broke. The government only hires one priest for every ten or so that retires. In the years leading up to the crisis there was a huge push for all priests to have a seminary education. That's now derailed due to lack of money. The thing is that neither of these really bother the Greek Orthodox too much from what I have seen, since that's what a lot of the smaller churches are used to; your priest is just the dude in your village who knows how to stumble through the Divine Liturgy and perform sacraments, and you rely on itinerant monks to catechize people and teach them the finer points of the Orthodox faith.
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Mar 26, 2017 20:47
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