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Cleretic posted:Then what's his first-hand knowledge!? His own life up until having memories imprinted into him by the unsundered, which may well be what we learn through Endwalker before we finish the job we didn't get to do after fighting Tsukiyomi, just with another person piloting the meat suit.
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Jun 8, 2021 01:54
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How far is he confirmed to have survive? Do we know he made it all the way to the sundered? He could consider everything from the noise all the way to the imprisonment of zodiark to be part of the final days, and at the very least he died when he was sundered (probably)
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Jun 8, 2021 01:55
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Cleretic posted:Then what's his first-hand knowledge!? I think that he (or the writers) are using the word “mostly,” which I assume is what you are getting caught up on, as a bit of sarcasm rather than a statement by omission that he does have first hand knowledge
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Jun 8, 2021 01:56
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MadFriarAvelyn posted:His own life up until having memories imprinted into him by the unsundered, which may well be what we learn through Endwalker before we finish the job we didn't get to do after fighting Tsukiyomi, just with another person piloting the meat suit. How is that relevant to the Final Days? He says it's his own knowledge of the Final Days that's 'mostly secondhand'. cheetah7071 posted:How far is he confirmed to have survive? Do we know he made it all the way to the sundered? He could consider everything from the noise all the way to the imprisonment of zodiark to be part of the final days, and at the very least he died when he was sundered (probably) His memory crystal is the one that describes the experience of being tempered. So he survived through the Final Days at least up until some time after the summoning of Zodiark (which I think is the generally agreed-on endpoint of the Final Days), if not all the way to the Sundering itself. If he died between Zodiark and Hydaelyn's summonings, and still considers those the Final Days, that's a separate, also interesting angle.
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Jun 8, 2021 01:59
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Made it to 80 ninja tonight, did the capstone. I am really loving tired of Karasu Redbeak.
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Jun 8, 2021 02:03
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Cleretic posted:How is that relevant to the Final Days? He says it's his own knowledge of the Final Days that's 'mostly secondhand'. We already know most of the sundered have no knowledge of their past lives until they have had their memories restored via unsundered influence. Anyone that is sundered likely has very little first hand knowledge of the events that happened there. Period. Outside of the influence of the echo or whatever the gently caress is going on with your boi Mr. Juicy rear end Zenos. This may be someone that strongly researched the event, but until Endwalker we literally don't know. because the game hasn't given us enough information about the concept. [Edit] If they happen to know more than what they're implying, that's also a new concept we aren't associated with yet. Wait until Endwalker to find out the answer. MadFriarAvelyn fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 02:05
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loving just  this thread so that Cleretic and Moofia can stop causing endless looping discussion while we wait five months for Endwalker to drop while we wait for answers that we literally can't answer until it does.[Edit] In fact, no.  .(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) MadFriarAvelyn fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 02:13
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MadFriarAvelyn posted:loving just You can just not respond to them. I have them on ignore, it’s great
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Jun 8, 2021 02:18
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Cleretic posted:Then what's his first-hand knowledge!? His first hand memories are his experiences in his current life. The life that was, eventually, awakened as an Ascian by Emet-Selch or Lahabrea or Elidibus. Fandaniel is very clear that he does not identify with the Amaurotine Fandaniel, or with the Ascian project. The memories in that soul crystal are someone else’s. What I suspect you’re confused by is that while the overwhelming majority, as far as we can tell, if not all of the Convocation survived the Final Days, none of them survived with their identity intact the battle between Hydaelyn and Zodiark except the Unsundered. That’s the whole distinction. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 02:22
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thetoughestbean posted:You can just not respond to them. I have them on ignore, it’s great
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Jun 8, 2021 02:23
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Fister Roboto posted:Hello friends, this is the spoiler discussion thread for your favorite catgirl dressup simulator. Everything up through the end of the 5.3 story is on the table here. No need to use spoiler tags.
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Jun 8, 2021 02:23
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IF YOU HAVE NOT FINISHED THE MAIN STORY QUEST "REFLECTIONS IN CRYSTAL", CONTINUE READING AT YOUR OWN RISK
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this madfriaravelyn clown is making GBS threads up the thread
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Jun 8, 2021 02:32
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zenos actually possesses azem's soul - emet selch and elidibus were just projecting their loneliness and grief onto us
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Jun 8, 2021 03:07
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Captain Oblivious posted:His first hand memories are his experiences in his current life. The life that was, eventually, awakened as an Ascian by Emet-Selch or Lahabrea or Elidibus. Fandaniel is very clear that he does not identify with the Amaurotine Fandaniel, or with the Ascian project. The memories in that soul crystal are someone else’s. And... again. If the soul crystal's memories of the Final Days is what he specifically refers to as his second-hand knowledge of those events, then what does he consider his first-hand knowledge of it? If he does consider the soul crystal his first-hand knowledge, while we have some idea of where his second-hand knowledge is from (Emet, Elidibus, Lahabrea, possibly gathering other sources), then the question is 'what has he learned from them that leads him to consider personal first-hand experience a minor piece of the puzzle'? I'm not confused here, Fandaniel saying 'mostly secondhand' actually does raise questions that haven't been answered, even they potentially mean nothin (which I've been open about from the start, that this might be nothing and I might be over-reading into one off-handed line). I'm putting this forward as something to speculate on, because we've got six months of no story, so we might as well start thinking about what we've got so far. Ironically, despite MadFriarAvelyn apparently being allergic to speculation, he's put forward an idea that might have legs: that perhaps Fandaniel was studying this before being uplifted, and has enough material that it adds rather than reiterates. Maybe his knowledge of the Final Days is actually more complete than anyone, because while Emet just told his experience, Fandaniel searched the rubble. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 03:44
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I don't think Fandaniel sees his original self as himself. He's definitely mocking of the Unsundered's cause once they're not around to push it.
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Jun 8, 2021 04:01
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Vitamean posted:zenos actually possesses azem's soul - emet selch and elidibus were just projecting their loneliness and grief onto us Would be an interesting twist, but Hytholoadeus speaks of the 14th Convocation member as a him/her depending on the WoL's gender. Zenos being Azem only really makes sense of his ancient counterpart was the same gender as the current WoL. I don't know how that'd make much sense. Also, Azem's characterization in the Shadowbringers short story seems to align with the current WoL's modus operandi.
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Jun 8, 2021 04:05
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Cleretic posted:So, a line from 5.2 that someone pointed me to has some interesting meaning to it now that we understand more about the character and his aims. One of the things that helps to get clarity on arguments revolving around single lines in the script in FFXIV is to check the other languages, since (after ARR) the localization teams generally work closely together to deliver about the same information and the same feel. You'll have to ask people who actually speak the relevant languages for proper non-googled translations, but I think this probably gives the rough gist of that line in other languages: French: Je n'ai pas vécu les événements en question. Mais si vous le désirez, je peux tout vous raconter. "I did not experience the events in question. But if you wish, I can tell you everything." German: Oh, wenn es Euch interessiert, möchte es Euch keinesfalls vorenthalten, mein Herr. Ich muss jedoch gestehen, dass es größtenteils Hörensagen ist... "Oh, if you're interested, I don't want to withhold it from you, sir. However, I must confess that it is mostly hearsay..." Japanese: 興味があるのなら、お話ししますよ、陛下。まぁ、私もほとんど「聞いた話」のようなものですが…。 "If you are interested, I will tell you, Your Highness. Well, this is just "the story I heard"..." In these translations at least, I don't see anything that really suggests he's playing coy about having first hand experience. The French especially is pretty direct about that. It looks to me like Badger of Basra is most likely right about it being just kind of how Fandaniel talks.
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Jun 8, 2021 05:14
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ah good, time for the thread to eat itself as all good threads do during content droughts
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Jun 8, 2021 05:19
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Vitamean posted:zenos actually possesses azem's soul - emet selch and elidibus were just projecting their loneliness and grief onto us
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Jun 8, 2021 05:19
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Okay, that's actually super useful, thanks. It's not a line that's completely free of suspicion in other languages (it is interesting that even with the memories from the crystal, in other languages he still qualifies it as 'a story I heard'; perhaps he doesn't actually believe what he was told, even by the crystal), but it is free of the 'mostly secondhand' curiosity. Is there an easy way to get the text from other languages for these things? Pretty sure I can't copy and paste from cutscene text boxes.
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Jun 8, 2021 05:34
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Also, literally none of these characters are on the stand when they say the things they say, they can exaggerate, they can lie, they can aggrandize, they can speak poetically or metaphorically, or just be loving with whoever they're talking to. Which is to say, they talk like people.
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Jun 8, 2021 06:09
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https://twitter.com/twibbit/status/1402116188407226373 Edda Smolheart's power grows
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Jun 8, 2021 06:15
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Cleretic posted:And... again. If the soul crystal's memories of the Final Days is what he specifically refers to as his second-hand knowledge of those events, then what does he consider his first-hand knowledge of it? He doesn't. That is what I just explained to you at length. He, in his own words, does not seem to view Fandaniel of Amaurot as himself. He uses the name but by calling his knowledge of the Final Days second hand, by his rejection of the authority of the Unsundered, his disinterest in the Ascian project/the Unsundered world....well, perhaps Endwalker will spin things differently, but so far he does not seem to identify as Fandaniel of Amaurot. That's kind of the thing about "past lives". They only matter and are a part of your identity if you give a poo poo. The Unsundered do, their whole MO is privileging the identities formed in Amaurot over all others, but that doesn't mean anyone they uplift is obliged to agree. Fandaniel was happy to hear Elidibus was probably dead. He saw the Unsundered as taskmasters, he had no genuine fealty to them or their project. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 06:23
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Yes, I know he doesn't. And as I said, that's actually even weirder, because then it implies that he has knowledge of the Final Days more direct than literal on-the-ground memories even if those memories were someone else's. But as Canine Conespiracy brought up, that 'secondhand' line only exists in English, and as such doesn't really have weight. So no point arguing it any longer. Tunzie posted:Also, literally none of these characters are on the stand when they say the things they say, they can exaggerate, they can lie, they can aggrandize, they can speak poetically or metaphorically, or just be loving with whoever they're talking to. However, this is something worth talking and thinking about. Personally, I never approach a character as if they're just straight-up lying, because that is not an interesting or interactable character. There has to be truth in things somewhere, and I personally believe that Fandaniel is, at the end of the day, saying things he sees as truths. As to the rest... well, we don't entirely know his whole deal, so it's an open question as to how much he lies and in what forms. I personally take him to be truthful, but ultimately both very dramatic and very need-to-know; he'll big up his end goal and his current plan, but the rest is openly secrets. Even to Zenos, judging by the 5.4 'meanwhile in the Imperial Palace' scene, although Zenos is a little more clued-in than us. So to take the line we've been talking about with all this... yeah, I believe he knows the story of the End of Days, although I think he has some different sources than he's letting on, and is probably a little more confident about it than just 'I remember this story'. His tale of the Final Days to Zenos, as compared to Emet's to us, was probably less emotional and more detail-oriented, while still being very theatric (he probably really talked up important buildings falling down), but as a result likely with a few more overt roadblocks, more 'that's not important' and 'we'll get to that' moments. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Jun 8, 2021 |
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Jun 8, 2021 06:56
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There was an old webcomic I read before, and one of the characters was an elf. At some point in the story, the human character is asking her about stuff that had happened in some long-ago war and her reply is along the lines of "Just because I'm long-lived doesn't mean I have perfect recall. A lot has happened in the centuries I've been alive, there is stuff I've fogotten and stuff I wasn't even around for." So maybe that's where Fandaniel's "mostly secondhand" comes from. When poo poo was going down, maybe he was hiding under the bed or something and one of the Unsundered filled him in on the whole "So we sacrificed a whooooole lot of people to this god we summoned..."
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Jun 8, 2021 07:02
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the_steve posted:There was an old webcomic I read before, and one of the characters was an elf. See, I like this idea. The cosmic equivalent of 'I mean yeah, I was alive for 9/11, but all I remember are my teachers freaking out and that they weren't airing Pokemon on TV'.
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Jun 8, 2021 07:52
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That's... actually an interesting angle. We don't know how long it was between Zodiark being summoned and Hydaelyn being. That could end up being relevant or a space they play in.
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Jun 8, 2021 12:33
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We don't have timeframes for any events in Amaurot, it's worth saying. I always assumed it's because the Ancients were longer-lived and so thought and acted on a much larger timeframe than us, but I base that only on the fact that the Ascians seem to only now be going a bit crazy, which is some remarkable patience over untold millennia. The closest thing to a timeframe that we have for the Ancient world is that we know the idea for the second Zodiark summon (which Hydaelyn was in opposition to) was to sacrifice all the new life that'd turned up since the Final Days. To me that implies a timeframe of years (or whatever their equivalent is), enough for that new life to be a substantial enough population to fuel a Zodiark summoning while also being around long enough for Venat's faction to decide they were worthy stewards.
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Jun 8, 2021 13:47
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Fandaniel is presumably from the convocation that summoned Zodiark and so was around for the sound. I doubt they made a new convocation in the interval between Zodiark and Hydaelyn's summoning. He's sundered so he died during Hydaelyn sundering the world into fourteen. No idea on when he went crazy though. Might have been before he was sundered but after summoning Zodiark. Might have been only this specific instance of him. Actually wild thought, you think the Unsundered ever awoke multiple instances of the same sundered Ascian at the same time? Like woke up the chunk of Nabriales on the seventh and the third at the same time.
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Jun 8, 2021 16:59
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Jun 8, 2021 19:56
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A Sometimes Food posted:I doubt they made a new convocation in the interval between Zodiark and Hydaelyn's summoning. We know at least Elidibus was replaced. It's not inconceivable others were, though it'd be a bit odd, story-telling wise
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Jun 8, 2021 20:03
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Off topic but why is there a gas smilie with the wildstar man lol
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Jun 8, 2021 20:14
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cheetah7071 posted:We know at least Elidibus was replaced. It's not inconceivable others were, though it'd be a bit odd, story-telling wise Was his seat ever refilled after his sacrifice? I don't think that's something that's ever been said.
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Jun 8, 2021 20:31
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Was his seat ever refilled after his sacrifice? I don't think that's something that's ever been said. If it had been, he wouldn't have had to reform himself as a primal.
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Jun 8, 2021 20:43
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The Scions initially theorized that the Elidibus we know must be someone that refilled the seat after the previous one became the heart of Zodiark, but then we find out that no he just yanked himself out of Zodiark's main body and that the only Elidibus present in the story is all the same guy. We also hear about how he was a newer member of the Convocation, but that was still decent amount of time prior to the Final Days.
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Jun 8, 2021 20:57
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Chillgamesh posted:Off topic but why is there a gas smilie with the wildstar man lol Avelyn's brain was destroyed while waiting in queue as a healer for six hours when Wildstar was live
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Jun 9, 2021 00:35
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Gruckles posted:The Scions initially theorized that the Elidibus we know must be someone that refilled the seat after the previous one became the heart of Zodiark, but then we find out that no he just yanked himself out of Zodiark's main body and that the only Elidibus present in the story is all the same guy. Yeah, this is right. Elidibus sacrificed himself to become the heart of Zodiark, and then came back down partly because the Convocation without him was struggling to maintain cohesion enough to lead, and partly because of an all-encompassing need to be seen and recognized as A Hero And A Savior--which, fortunately, he actually was (whether that's entirely a primal thing or if he was actually like that beforehand, we don't know). I don't think it's impossible that there was a brief Interim Elidibus that just couldn't do the job as well, but we never saw them.
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Jun 9, 2021 00:45
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Quick question of what I assume was a 1.x thing: What's Sicinius referring to during the last Dabog skirmish when he talks about "the VIIth's data extraction technique"? 
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Jun 9, 2021 06:06
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Vitamean posted:Quick question of what I assume was a 1.x thing: According to the second set of Dabog field notes, Sicinius based his work on the VIIth Legion's Oversoul system. Basically, the armor of Garlemald's warriors, like the armor Gaius or Regula wear, has a tracking device that records the brain and aetheric waves of the armor wearer. This is how the VIIth Legion had data to imprint upon the Weapon pilots, pasting the warrior's data and turning grunt pilots into awesome copies of Gaius, inheriting all of the original's skill and combat experience. Sicinius used the same tech to make copies of the original Dabog. Every Dabog you've been fighting up until now was almost certainly just some random Hrothgar (or possibly a non-Hrothgar, as we see in the Werlyt storyline that a hyur was transformed into the hulking huge Zenos) who just had the original Dabog's data pasted onto him. It is unclear if the original Dabog is even still alive or if he's still out there somewhere.
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Jun 9, 2021 06:12
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Sicinicus all but explicitly states that the original Dabog has perished from the strain of operating high-performance magitek vehicles, and he's just been surgically altering random Hrothgar men to look identical to Dabog after pasting his (already brainwashed and reduced to will-less, memory-scoured obedience) mind onto them, purely out of sick perfectionism. Sicinicus is quite possibly the single nastiest piece of work Garlemald has produced after Valens, and the line between them is extremely fine. It's honestly one of the problems with trying to frame the 4th as sympathetic; between Albeleo, Sicinicus and the evil zealot dude introduced in Zadnor they are just speedrunning the Crimes Against Spoken obstacle course, to the point it's genuinely straining belief that either Lyon or Menenius, portrayed as honorable in your standard Boisterous Warmonger & generic Loyal Retainer archetype ways, would be willing to serve alongside him. It doesn't seem accidental, either, that basically almost every sympathetic 4th officer ends up a dupe or cannon fodder test subject at the hands of these monsters. Hernais and Dyunbu, for example, who are (possibly reanimated), brainwashed and sent in as backup to one of their summoned monstrosities. So honestly it seriously undermines the idea Gabranth's command is really that sympathetic.
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Jun 9, 2021 07:44
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