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i guess i'm seeing some sarcasm in all of this that you are not
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May 29, 2021 03:08
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Mimesweeper posted:i guess i'm seeing some sarcasm in all of this that you are not where
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May 29, 2021 03:15
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the "he's trying" its not "hes trying so the things he did are okay" its "hes trying but he failed" these are flawed and messed up characters and the author writing flawed and messed up characters isn't the same as the author saying they're actually good really this has been an entire chapter about how not okay either of these characters are
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May 29, 2021 03:25
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I don't know what the author was intending, but I know what I don't like and I did not like this chapter.
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May 29, 2021 03:36
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Mimesweeper posted:these are flawed and messed up characters and the author writing flawed and messed up characters isn't the same as the author saying they're actually good I mean, I think having background collages like these:  is basically the comic equivalent of having a heartwarming soundtrack playing over the scene. It definitely feels like the structure of the comic is saying "this is good" to me.
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May 29, 2021 03:41
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but is that annie's unhealthy obsession with her father or is it the author's unhealthy obses- gently caress this is a hopeless conversation and im sorry for starting it. nevermind
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May 29, 2021 03:43
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Mimesweeper posted:but is that annie's unhealthy obsession with her father or is it the author's unhealthy obses- I think the comic is presenting it as Annie's healthy and heartwarming love for her father. I don't know or care what the author's relationship with his father was like.
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May 29, 2021 04:10
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Snake Maze posted:I think the comic is presenting it as Annie's healthy and heartwarming love for her father. i think its presenting it as deeply hosed up and unsettling, despite what annie is saying about how its all fine, and that's the intent.
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May 29, 2021 04:16
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Snake Maze posted:I think the comic is presenting it as Annie's healthy and heartwarming love for her father. I think kind of is Annie's healthy and heartwarming love for her father, insofar as this is the best a child can do in this situation. The problem is when it's being used as a reason why nobody else in Annie's life needs to intervene, either to get her away from Tony or to use social pressure or psychiatric assistance to get him to change his behavior.
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May 29, 2021 04:32
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Mimesweeper posted:i think its presenting it as deeply hosed up and unsettling, despite what annie is saying about how its all fine, and that's the intent. I thought so too near the beginning of her scene with Jones, and was finding this thread's discussion really frustrating to read and took a break from it. I'm back at the end of the chapter, having completely changed my mind over the course of that monologue. I think it's meant to be genuine, like Tom would describe this dynamic as complicated-but-ultimately-positive. It feels like... at this point, Tom is thinking of Tony's flaw as merely "being unable to open up to his daughter", and is working to write a nuanced relationship between Annie and that conception of Tony, regardless of the actual character history depicted in the first 2/3 of the comic.
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May 29, 2021 04:38
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Mimesweeper posted:i think its presenting it as deeply hosed up and unsettling, despite what annie is saying about how its all fine, and that's the intent. Jones, the ultimate impartial observer of the comic, signed off on all this and the comic literally said 'she doesn't get it [cause emotions what are those] but she gets it'. She doesn't view it as something to intervene in and I can't think of her ever being shown as incompetent.
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May 29, 2021 05:07
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Blasmeister posted:Jones, the ultimate impartial observer of the comic, signed off on all this and the comic literally said 'she doesn't get it [cause emotions what are those] but she gets it'. She doesn't view it as something to intervene in and I can't think of her ever being shown as incompetent. Jones was also depicted as communicating what she learned to one of the shadier (heh) court characters, it seems very unlikely to me her reason for investigating was for the sake of Annie herself. It seemed more to me like court cloak and dagger espionage/surveillance. Catgirl Al Capone fucked around with this message at 05:18 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 05:15
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tried to answer the people responding to me but everything else i wanted to write feels like itd just be annoying for everyone, i already said all i have to say none of y'all are wrong, guess we can all find out where this is going. thanks for the good posts Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 07:54 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 05:18
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Mimesweeper posted:i think its presenting it as deeply hosed up and unsettling, despite what annie is saying about how its all fine, and that's the intent. The problem is in how the comic portrays this information. The situation is deeply hosed up, yes. However, the comic portrays it with bright, friendly colors. It uses attractive and interesting composition. It has the protagonist front-and-center, smiling and looking confident. Tom knows how to use color and composition to relay a message. If he wanted to show that this was hosed up and not a good thing, he would. He could use dark dreary colors, he could have more of a wild look in Annie's eyes, he could have the camera be pulled back and distant from her, and maybe not show us her face so her real emotions are unclear. E: also worth noting that when talking with Tony, Jones interjected asking why he felt the way he did, offered advice, and gave her opinion on his situation with her wisdom from thousands of years of working with people. Meanwhile with Annie, she didn't say anything for seven full pages, and then just reacted with positive support of Annie's statements. Admittedly that support may not be sincere, but we were just shown that Jones was willing to pry at the heart of perceived problems and offer advice toward them. By NOT doing so with Annie, the comic communicates that she thinks Annie is correct, and Jones has so far almost always been a source of true and trustable information. CodfishCartographer fucked around with this message at 05:36 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 05:20
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This is not a comic that has ever been subtle about when Annie is conflicted or suppressing her emotions. When she is doing that she usually has a stoic, neutral, or very muted way of presenting herself. Here she is serene. At ease. Happy. Factor this on top of what everyone else has said about Jones, her lack of response at stages of the conversation or outright approval at the end, and the message is fairly clear. This is supposed to be seen as a Good Thing. A step forward. It isn't, but Tom definitely seems to think it is.
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May 29, 2021 05:42
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For her age and circumstances, Annie's attitude in this chapter is almost miraculously healthy. It's not a sermon delivering judgement on her relationship from on high. Its where she's at, what, 16 or so. E: like the least healthy father figure award should go to ysengrin, the one who attempted to kill her in cold blood once, attempted to kill her again out of blind murderous rage over a comment later, and is currently a mote in the mind of the insane god his obsessions created. it's less impactful because the fantasy aspects remove it from reality. but its the same dynamic except far more dangerous. in forest terms, ysengrin's mental illness bring caused by coyote is no different than tony's being explained by some combination of presumably rational factors. those forces are personified in the forest, that's how those guys roll. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 07:56 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 07:27
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they should cancel tony, in the comic
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May 29, 2021 07:55
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It's not just Annie with the surreal presence of mind. There have been no textual consequences to, say, the ship's AI taking an entire year of students hostage, and the entire cohort regards it as "eh, what can we do, better deal with it" during the incident. Students leap into action and start improvising by arm-wrestling robots. This just goes by unremarked. Nobody flips out. Exactly none of her fellow 14-year-old Year 10 students melts down and says, e.g., "where are my parents and my teachers I'm in an active mystical bullshit incident, this isn't a fun VR sim, my friends are getting hurt, I don't know what to do, someone help me" This is one of the suspensions of disbelief inherent to a chunk of YA fantasy fiction - a good swathe of teenage readers want to read fiction depicting characters who are nominally like themselves, but much more self-aware. Insofar as characters have weaknesses, they have such weaknesses as the reader would tolerate having, but not those that would really matter to a teenage social scene. Exactly nobody breaks down crying (unless it would be noble for them to do so). Everyone can explain their desires, plans, and actions and nobody lashes out in the thoughtless cruelty of teenage boredom. Trusted parents, mentors, and institutions provide resources and guidance, but are never really necessary. (this is not universal - some readers instead want bleak misery-lit etc. It's a wide world out there. Readers like different things) This is fine. Not all stories have to be Real Life Real Consequences and it would not improve upon fiction to insist on it, and nor does it make the reader a superior kind of individual. Of course it would be fun if there is a brief exploration of such themes, just as it would be great if Gunnerkrigg did indulge in high sci-fi musings on identity whilst the Double Annies lasted, or if it did engage in some Primer-esque exploration of time travel, but I don't think any of these things were ever intended to be central elements. Of course death of the author and all that. To pick a suitably YA-boarding-school-fantasy example - back during Potterdämmerung there were a lot of fanfic writers who had written their own endings which were, frankly, much more adult than what turned out to be the case (and I don't mean in a prurient way) - the scifi fans would take a really hard look at the fictive rules of the world, the bleak lit fans would seize upon loss and suffering, the social lit fans would emphasize the politics and deception, and all of these were valid takes. Hopefully, of course, one can nonetheless appreciate that the canonical thing was not ever setting out to compete by the same markers.
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May 29, 2021 08:31
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YA aspects of hyper-competent teens aside, “well that’s just how he is and I’ve learned to accept it (thanks to the other-me he wasn’t like this to)” is a terrible message to put across when it’s a child talking about their distant, previously irrationally controlling, previously-previously invasive and dangerous to their health father.
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May 29, 2021 08:42
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Bussamove posted:YA aspects of hyper-competent teens aside, “well that’s just how he is and I’ve learned to accept it (thanks to the other-me he wasn’t like this to)” is a terrible message to put across when it’s a child talking about their distant, previously irrationally controlling, previously-previously invasive and dangerous to their health father. the distinction between "learned to accept" and "choose to accept" is vast and deep; somewhere in its depths lies forgotten any hope of your point being relevant
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May 29, 2021 08:48
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E: thought better of it, disregard. Tony is still a terrible father and this is a non-resolution.
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May 29, 2021 08:58
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Bussamove posted:YA aspects of hyper-competent teens aside, “well that’s just how he is and I’ve learned to accept it (thanks to the other-me he wasn’t like this to)” is a terrible message to put across when it’s a child talking about their distant, previously irrationally controlling, previously-previously invasive and dangerous to their health father. it is rather awkward. I have this sense that the Return of Father narrative tension was always intended to be largely over by chapter 57. Spending a chapter dwelling on an unambiguous resolution in a fourth-wall-breaking staring-at-the-reader-whilst-reading-off-a-speech way (and therefore committing to a message rather than just leaving it unexamined) does come off as Tom having been baited by noisy reader feedback into providing a clear statement on, ahem, Annie's "state of mind?!". Speech over, resume normal programming, "we can now continue" indeed. certainly there have been no shortage of readers breathlessly waiting for Tony to be cancelled, as it were
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May 29, 2021 09:00
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Mimesweeper posted:i think its presenting it as deeply hosed up and unsettling, despite what annie is saying about how its all fine, and that's the intent. I'm still in this camp too, for what it's worth. In no way am I feeling like either Annie or her father is in a good place after this chapter. They've both chosen ways to not deal with the situation; Annie is happy about it, but so what? I'd still have preferred a better way of portraying things as many people have pointed out; the connotations and implied approval suck. Osmosisch fucked around with this message at 09:42 on May 29, 2021 |
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May 29, 2021 09:39
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Bleck posted:they should cancel tony, in the comic The actor who portrays Tony has been revealed to have a Troy McClure style fish fetish and was promptly fired, the role of Annie's father will now be played by Boxbot.
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May 29, 2021 09:50
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Put me down as one who hasn't interpreted this depiction as endorsement. I don't think the problem with this chapter is a moral one.
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May 29, 2021 11:03
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At least this should put the bed all the silly Still In Zimmyham theories.
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May 29, 2021 11:06
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If you've been keeping up with the comments section at all, a sizable portion of them have been taking the entire thing as positive. "You tell 'em, Tom!" "Ha! Annie talking straight to the audience! Take that, Tony-haters!" "This is a very mature response for her to take. I'm proud of Annie" "I for one am convinced, this page is very sweet" etc etc. There's also been a decent portion recounting their experiences with abuse and saying the chapter was unpleasant and felt like abuse apologia, but definitely a large amount of people who think Annie's entire speech was healthy and normal and not at all under duress. These aren't verbatim - I'd go grab verbatim examples if the comments section didn't disappear after every new strip is released, but I've been hawking the comments for maybe the past 7 strips, and there have been a LOT along these lines, especially on the page where Annie was staring directly at the audience saying she doesn't care what the audience thinks. And yes, internet comments are full of idiots, the internet sucks, whatever, but I think you can't ignore what that says about how the comic itself is coming across. That regardless of whatever you think his intent was with the way the narrative and below-comic comments have been framed thus far, to a decently large subset of the comic's audience, it is coming across as "Annie's reaction is healthy and normal and meant to be taken as face value". Does that automatically mean it's what he meant? No, it means if he's trying to get something else across, he's failing for a large amount of people. Whatever you want to argue about the strip's actual contents, it's clear in how divisive it's been not just here but for the greater Gunnerkrigg audience that he has somewhat failed in clarity of authorial intent, which I think is worth noting in criticism if nothing else.
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May 29, 2021 12:03
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Here, I condensed the chapter down to two pages: 
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May 29, 2021 12:18
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Bongo Bill posted:Put me down as one who hasn't interpreted this depiction as endorsement. I don't think the problem with this chapter is a moral one. I'm honestly surprised this is still a thing after the one clear authorial statement on the matter said verbatim "this chapter [is] about a girl trying to understand a crummy guy". Like I can get arguing how it can be easily interpreted that way, a lot of the imagery is built around what Annie is saying and you only get the sense of creeping dread with the context of all their past relationship stuff, but I thought we were past the point of accusing Tom of actually believing Annie was totally correct here.
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May 29, 2021 12:33
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:I don't know what the author was intending, but I know what I don't like and I did not like this chapter. 
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May 29, 2021 13:26
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Tenebrais posted:I'm honestly surprised this is still a thing after the one clear authorial statement on the matter said verbatim "this chapter [is] about a girl trying to understand a crummy guy". I got quite the opposite from that very same statement. To me that was saying, “and now she does. Move on. There’s court stuff happening.” It downplays Tony’s previous behavior as merely crummy and places the responsibility of understanding [and thus accepting] on Annie’s shoulders alone. I have trouble seeing how this chapter and the authorial statements after each page could be interpreted as less than a ringing endorsement for Annie’s current state of mind. It’s unhealthy, but the framing and commentary don’t seem to understand that.
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May 29, 2021 14:21
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Any idea last shred of hope for “authorial intent misinterpreted, actually meant to be seen as an unhealthy swerve” died for me with this bonus page. The framing, expressions, the author’s note saying he’s trying, i can’t see how it could be meant as anything other than an unambiguous “this is a good development” epilogue page to further hammer it in. If we were meant to have the takeaway of “no this is seriously unhealthy and glossing over his behaviour, psychological damage desperately monologued to justify it” I don’t see how this page would fit at all.
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May 29, 2021 14:35
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looking back at the earlier pages, I'm also disturbed by the framing of everybody else at the court poo pooing on tony then cutting to Annie going "actually I'm the only one who understands him" normally this would be the sign of an unhealthy relationship but not here
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May 29, 2021 14:55
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CodfishCartographer posted:E: also worth noting that when talking with Tony, Jones interjected asking why he felt the way he did, offered advice, and gave her opinion on his situation with her wisdom from thousands of years of working with people. Meanwhile with Annie, she didn't say anything for seven full pages, and then just reacted with positive support of Annie's statements. Admittedly that support may not be sincere, but we were just shown that Jones was willing to pry at the heart of perceived problems and offer advice toward them. By NOT doing so with Annie, the comic communicates that she thinks Annie is correct, and Jones has so far almost always been a source of true and trustable information.
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May 29, 2021 15:31
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i think that using a text as an exegesis as to the opinions of its author is bad practice it's ok to not like stuff, of course, but imo it's a stretch to say [author] is defending something in a fictional story. the story might be said to defend something, but using exegesis to say, effectively, "comic says Problematic Thing so author is Problematic" is not a constructive way to relate to fiction
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May 29, 2021 18:20
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V. Illych L. posted:i think that using a text as an exegesis as to the opinions of its author is bad practice Yeah definitely. While I think the comic is giving some very questionable messages, it shouldn't be assumed that these messages are necessarily what the author believes, and it's also fully possibly they're unintentional.
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May 29, 2021 18:29
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my reaction to this whole arc
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May 29, 2021 18:58
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CodfishCartographer posted:Yeah definitely. While I think the comic is giving some very questionable messages, it shouldn't be assumed that these messages are necessarily what the author believes, and it's also fully possibly they're unintentional. y'all are just straight up insulting tom as an author and artist at this point. "maybe it was unintentional, he didnt actually mean to portray any of the things that the majority of the audience seems to have taken away from this chapter." e: tony is a bad dad, who put in his first bit of effort AFTER this weird monologue. to interpret this as anything other than an endorsment of [the only remotely healthy way to respond to an absent father, but a terrible way to respond to an abusive one], is kinda hosed.
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May 29, 2021 19:01
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Niavmai posted:y'all are just straight up insulting tom as an author and artist at this point. Sorry I should have clarified, I don't think it's unintended. Tom is a good author and I think it was intentional - my previous post notes how Tom is skilled enough to know how to portray things how he wants to. That being said, it is possible it was unintended. Not likely, but possible. Tom is skilled but can make mistakes.
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May 29, 2021 19:04
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Astribulus posted:I got quite the opposite from that very same statement. "I read the words the guy said and decided that he intends the opposite of what the words said" that's it, that's contemporary media discourse in a nutshell
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May 29, 2021 19:44
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