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Condiv posted:centrists can't win things. that's why the party is in the state it's in. and as long as they're in control we will still fail to win. best thing to do is to purge centrists asap so we can actually start fighting back politically. cause centrists have absolutely no answers for what's going on right now and they don't want any. Okay, but you need to separate outrage and moral superiority from what actually works. Again, the Tea Party makes a good road map for this: they primaried Republicans they saw as too weak to do what they wanted and did so in states and districts where they could win. Then they did win. In so doing, they made themselves a force that the Republican establishment couldn't ignore and changed the landscape of the Republican Party to this day. In short: they didn't "purge" the RINOs, but they certainly scared the poo poo out of them, removed key ones, and took the gently caress over. Because the other part of the Tea Party wasn't just to burn down the Republican Party and make something new, but to actually change national policy to suit their agendas, which involves winning. They didn't nuke the party and hand power over to the Democrats: they created momentum and used it to change their own party and win. You're focusing far, far too much on some sort of magical "purity" across the entire party and not only is that not going to ever happen, but it also isn't going to be productive. It's purely destructive. Changing a political party can happen quickly (again, see the Tea Party), but I guarantee you that going full scorched earth is not the way for progressives to actually win and make a difference.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:15
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:This is where I remind you that Zephyr Teachout not only lost her race but under performed HRC, and a whole bunch of leftists couldn't even win their primaries. The left didn't show up for Hillary, but moderate conservatives did. There just aren't many moderate conservatives.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:15
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The Kingfish posted:The left didn't show up for Hillary, but moderate conservatives did. There just aren't many moderate conservatives. This doesn't scan with the actual election results.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:17
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I get that and largely agree with you -- I am countering the narrative that RUNNING TO THE LEFT IS ALWAYS GOING TO WIN. No one is saying that.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:18
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mcmagic posted:No one is saying that. People are. They are idiots, but they are saying that.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:18
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Wraith of J.O.I. posted:Ok fair enough. How do you suggest they do this though? What should their messaging and policy focus/es be? In the immediate future we should focus the bulk of our efforts on resisting trump, and tying republicans to trump, and then run the 2018 election as a referrendum on trump. Run on congress blocking his policies. Run on congress investigating him. If he passes poo poo, run on repealing it. otherwise just pick popular elements of the 2016 platform like raising the minimum wage that trump has come out against.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:18
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:The party shifted to the left, dramatically. People like you jsut continue to pretend otherwise because you think "shift to the left" means "elect Bernie and give him the keys to the car." Me and everyone who isn't a beltway dork couldn't give less of a poo poo about what the party platform is. What are the leftist policies that the party will campaign on? Clinton's terrible means-testing college program?? That's basically the only policy plank I can remember about her disaster of a campaign. What is the DNC's version of repealing Obamacare?
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Feb 28, 2017 22:19
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Brainiac Five posted:The only reason to want my reasoning is to avoid evaluating the idea by looking for prospective flaws and attacking them. Why don't you instead offer a counter-proposition instead of this horseshit where you pretend neutrality until someone Schlieffen Plans you. it's... it's not having the effect you intended, forums' poster "Brainiac Five"
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Feb 28, 2017 22:21
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The Kingfish posted:Me and everyone who isn't a beltway dork couldn't give less of a poo poo about what the party platform is. What are the leftist policies that the party will campaign on? Clinton's terrible means-testing college program?? That's basically the only policy plank I can remember about her disaster of a campaign. You don't speak for everyone and you should stop pretending you do.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:21
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Harrow posted:Okay, but you need to separate outrage and moral superiority from what actually works. Again, the Tea Party makes a good road map for this: they primaried Republicans they saw as too weak to do what they wanted and did so in states and districts where they could win. Then they did win. In so doing, they made themselves a force that the Republican establishment couldn't ignore and changed the landscape of the Republican Party to this day. i'm glad it will destroy the centrist dems. if it takes putting a knife to the throat of the dem party for the centrists to give an inch then that's what we should do imo. and centrists have shown that they will not give an inch. not even after the massive losses they've seen these past 8 years, and not even after they lost to a bumbling fascist.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:22
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I'm right. Nobody normal cares about the DNC policy platform.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:22
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mcmagic posted:No one is saying that. There's plenty of people saying that in this thread. The Kingfish posted:Me and everyone who isn't a beltway dork couldn't give less of a poo poo about what the party platform is. What are the leftist policies that the party will campaign on? Clinton's terrible means-testing college program?? That's basically the only policy plank I can remember about her disaster of a campaign. This is the kind of dumb poo poo I am talking about. Hillary's free-college plan was came up with her and Bernie jointly. She proposed universal child care for gently caress sake. And what are you even talking about "the DNC's version of repealing Obamacare" -- no one in the democratic party has said we should "Repeal Obamacare." The Kingfish posted:I'm right. Nobody normal cares about the DNC policy platform. No this is just you refusing to admit you're full of poo poo.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:22
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The Tea Party began life as an astroturf campaign and enjoyed consistent institutional support from people like the Koch brothers, as well as the existence of Citizen's United. The left doesn't have these things and while the Tea Party is an interesting test case I don't think "be more like the Tea Party" is categorically useful advice to leftists.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:23
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Universal child care is a huge deal to anyone with children or anyone who cares about feminism, so it's not surprising people don't talk about it.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:24
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Like you can't even promulgate what you "want" in a policy goal other than some rehashed ideas from the Bernie campaign that are mostly part of mainstream dem policy goals now.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:25
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:There's plenty of people saying that in this thread. The college plan was a half-assed means-tested piece of steaming poo poo. Universal child care would be amazing but "coming out" for a policy is loving pointless if you don't campaign on it like you mean it or you just rattle it off in a long list of all the things you "support." I don't care what the DNC "supports" I want to know what they are going to fight for! The DNC needs a vision of something big and important to run on like how the GOP had something big and important to run on in 2010. E: And no. I can guarantee you that "opposing Trump" is not good enough.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:27
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Like you can't even promulgate what you "want" in a policy goal other than some rehashed ideas from the Bernie campaign that are mostly part of mainstream dem policy goals now. They don't actually want any of it they just want to punish the democrats for humiliating Bernie.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:27
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Like you can't even promulgate what you "want" in a policy goal other than some rehashed ideas from the Bernie campaign that are mostly part of mainstream dem policy goals now. i want harsher sentences for criminal cops and i want to look into increasing the independence of internal affairs departments so that criminal cops can start to be brought to justice.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:27
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Lightning Knight posted:The Tea Party began life as an astroturf campaign and enjoyed consistent institutional support from people like the Koch brothers, as well as the existence of Citizen's United. The left doesn't have these things and while the Tea Party is an interesting test case I don't think "be more like the Tea Party" is categorically useful advice to leftists. they primaried their own when they didn't tow the line, you guys are terrified to go against manchin
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Feb 28, 2017 22:29
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Condiv posted:i want harsher sentences for criminal cops and i want to look into increasing the independence of internal affairs departments so that criminal cops can start to be brought to justice. Grats! That's largely in the Dem policy goal agenda! The Kingfish posted:The college plan was a half-assed means-tested piece of steaming poo poo. Universal child care would be amazing but "coming out" for a policy is loving pointless if you don't campaign on it like you mean it or you just rattle it off in a long list of all the things you "support." I don't care what the DNC "supports" I want to know what they are going to fight for! You're materially wrong on point one, and on point two that's a different point than: "Dems won't give the left anything a bloo a bloo a bloo." The GOP ran on "stop Obama and repeal/replace."
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Feb 28, 2017 22:29
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Mnoba posted:they primaried their own when they didn't tow the line, you guys are terrified to go against manchin Find me the Dem who can beat him. I am waiting.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:30
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And there you have it. Policies don't matter, what matters is the brand and the efficacy of the advertising campaign.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:30
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:This is where I remind you that Zephyr Teachout not only lost her race but under performed HRC, and a whole bunch of leftists couldn't even win their primaries. If I have to choose the centrists that cant win anything, or the leftists that cant win anything, i'd choose the leftists every time. "Look at how ineffective this group with little institutional support is" would hold a lot more weight when said by a party that wasn't in the minority and losing further seats in all three branches of federal government.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:31
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How exactly do you guys believe Joe Manchin got elected in the first place? Jackalope magic? The assistance of the Jersey Devil?
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Feb 28, 2017 22:31
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Mnoba posted:they primaried their own when they didn't tow the line, you guys are terrified to go against manchin They primaried their own and didn't toe the line will millions of PAC money behind them and the understanding by establishment Republicans that elements of the donor class were rebelling against them. Unfortunately, George Soros isn't actually going to hand progressives millions of dollars to primary Manchin.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:31
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Brainiac Five posted:And there you have it. Policies don't matter, what matters is the brand and the efficacy of the advertising campaign. Yes, people actually have to believe that you believe in what you're saying. Democrats didn't figure out that basic aspect of human interaction lmao.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:32
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Grats! That's largely in the Dem policy goal agenda!  they don't give a poo poothey supported the drat cops hosing down nodapl protestors in freezing temps they were afraid to associate with blm during the ge rahm emmanuel loving got in the way of a criminal cop reaching justice centrists are useless, even on things they should support
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Feb 28, 2017 22:32
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Condiv posted:
Enjoy the DSA, I am done trying to talk to you in earnest.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:33
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Homeless Friend posted:Yes, people actually have to believe that you believe in what you're saying. Democrats didn't figure out that basic aspect of human interaction lmao. People believe advertising is truthful? What planet are you from?
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Feb 28, 2017 22:33
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Enjoy the DSA, I am done trying to talk to you in earnest. i will. i will also enjoy centrists losing their seats either through primary or the general
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Feb 28, 2017 22:35
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Neurolimal posted:If I have to choose the centrists that cant win anything, or the leftists that cant win anything, i'd choose the leftists every time. I am going to halfheartedly well actually you on this because we actually won seats in both the House and Senate.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:35
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It would be nice to see a commitment to protecting and expanding social security, a denouncement of austerity and 'fiscal cliff' rhetoric, and greater discipline among party congress cockroaches so we stop hearing 'oh this nice bill was gonna pass, but Hickshit Dumbass dissented, and doing anything about that wouldn't be democratic". For starters.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:35
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I am going to halfheartedly well actually you on this because we actually won seats in both the House and Senate. You mean the recent surprise, that came about due to grassroots support from local leftists? A poster who was participating talked about that a bit in c-spam.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:36
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Neurolimal posted:It would be nice to see a commitment to protecting and expanding social security, a denouncement of austerity and 'fiscal cliff' rhetoric, and greater discipline among party congress cockroaches so we stop hearing 'oh this nice bill was gonna pass, but Hickshit Dumbass dissented, and doing anything about that wouldn't be democratic". lol just committing to not hosing down protesters in the freezing cold was too much for centrists
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Feb 28, 2017 22:37
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So how are we supposed to get anything done when we have to pander to people like Condiv and Homeless Friend who want nothing but to punish Democrats? Film ourselves punching a brick wall? Show trials?
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Feb 28, 2017 22:37
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:You're materially wrong on point one, and on point two that's a different point than: "Dems won't give the left anything a bloo a bloo a bloo." I'm right about both points, actually. There is a massive difference between "coming out" for universal child care and campaigning on universal child care. Sure. They ran on stopping Obama but don't try and pretend like repealing Obamacare wasn't a huge part of the GOP campaign message. The DNC needs something that it wants to get done, like the GOP did w/r/t the ACA.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:37
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Neurolimal posted:You mean the recent surprise, that came about due to grassroots support from local leftists? A poster who was participating talked about that a bit in c-spam. Recent? We won seats in the House and Senate in the 2016 general election. Not the Delaware race.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:37
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Like maybe there is someone who can beat him -- but I don't really see that, and I do see a difference between Manchin who is opposed to stuff like rolling back medicare expansion and the Republican who not only wants to roll back medicare expansion but privatize it too. Does that mean do nothing while the GOP continues to gain strength.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:38
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Condiv posted:i'm glad it will destroy the centrist dems. if it takes putting a knife to the throat of the dem party for the centrists to give an inch then that's what we should do imo. and centrists have shown that they will not give an inch. not even after the massive losses they've seen these past 8 years, and not even after they lost to a bumbling fascist. I do not care if the centrist Democrats are destroyed. If they are, no skin off my back. If they capitulate instead, that's almost as good. I care about a) whether the progressives will actually win and b) what the country is going to look like as a result of this strategy. That's why I keep pointing to the Tea Party as an example--because they were effective at changing an American political party just like we want to--and warning against a scorched earth strategy. Letting Republicans win just because you don't like the Democrat that might have won is not effective political strategy if you want things to move to the left and not the right. Some lovely Democrats, like Manchin, are still useful as dams against a total Republican flood. I think you're missing what I'm saying. I'm saying that progressives primarying centrists and then winning gives those progressives more power in the party, which (by extension) gives centrists less power in the party. I'm not saying this out of some loyalty to establishment Democrats or mercy for them--I'm saying that we, as a country, are still helped out by having even a weak dam against even further right-wing takeover while we steadily get more actual progressives in office. I'll put it this way: we can either blow up the Democrats completely and let Republicans run rampant for a couple decades while a new party struggles against the remnants of the Democrats to become relevant and actually win, or we can vote against the Republicans while steadily primarying the Democrats who are holding the party back. It might take the same amount of time and get us to roughly the same place in the end, but it does so without the consequences of unchallenged Republican rule for a decade or more. Caveats exist, of course. If there's an unpopular Democratic senator who is probably going to lose to a Republican, primary away, nothing to lose. If there's a centrist Democrat who could reasonably win but they're in a state where a progressive can also win, primary away, let's do this. I'm saying that removing even lovely Democrats who can win in situations where the person we'd be running instead definitely cannot is the equivalent of burning something in effigy: it accomplishes exactly nothing. There's no reason to inflict casualties when it won't do anything to help push a favorable outcome. And no, "punish the centrists" isn't a good enough reason to make our actual government even worse.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:40
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The Kingfish posted:I'm right about both points, actually. There is a massive difference between "coming out" for universal child care and campaigning on universal child care. I don't feel like rehashing the mechanics of HRC's campaign failures, but again materially different from "they give us not even an inch" and "they didn't campaign on it enough." Not that you'll admit that, again, because it undermines the whole internecine party slapfight the Bernies so desperately feel the need to continue. Crowsbeak posted:Does that mean do nothing while the GOP continues to gain strength. I gavea list of things we could do that have a better chance of success and also would improve the situation. I am saying that absent a strong candidate who could theoretically beat Manchin and win the seat, there are better uses of the resources.
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Feb 28, 2017 22:40
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