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Could they do a longitudinal FWD setup, leaving RWD as an option for performance models?
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Jun 24, 2012 03:08
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Cream_Filling posted:To be fair, 335+ hp like in the 1M in a FWD car would be pretty bad. Agreed. In my experience anything over 230 or 240 to the wheels in a FWD car can be nasty. I had a lightly modded SRT-4 and 1st and 2nd gear were useless at full throttle. That car dyno'd at about 250 to the wheels. Even my stock Fusion Sport spins the tires under hard 1st gear acceleration until the TCS kicks in and kills the power anyway.
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Jun 24, 2012 03:19
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Fucknag posted:Could they do a longitudinal FWD setup, leaving RWD as an option for performance models? Putting an entire engine that far forward would seriously compromise handling. They could make the 2 series on a shorted 3 series platform instead. The packaging savings from a FWD setup are less valuable for a coupe than a sedan. This would also keep with their idea of promoting exclusivity with the coupes. Edit: ^^ I don't think a FWD BMW would get anything larger than the 240hp turbo four in its most potent form anyway. The majority of US sales will probably be of something like a ~170hp 2.4L engine. An "e-diff" will probably be stock on it as well. oRenj9 fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 03:19
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KozmoNaut posted:I don't think so. I disagree, I think it is very obvious even in normal driving. The only fwd car that could have fooled me is, strangely, the last eldorado. That disguised the fwd feel very well.
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Jun 24, 2012 03:20
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Fucknag posted:Could they do a longitudinal FWD setup, leaving RWD as an option for performance models? No, it'll be a re-bodied version of the new Mini that's coming out in the next year or two, and not as a replacement for the RWD 1-series.
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Jun 24, 2012 03:55
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AdmiralViscen posted:I disagree, I think it is very obvious even in normal driving. If you can spin the wheels it's noticeable. My MINI S has a good deal of torque steer if I put my foot down too hard and it's only 170hp. I guess 80% of people can't feel the difference between the front and rear letting go.
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Jun 24, 2012 04:40
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skipdogg posted:Agreed. In my experience anything over 230 or 240 to the wheels in a FWD car can be nasty. I had a lightly modded SRT-4 and 1st and 2nd gear were useless at full throttle. That car dyno'd at about 250 to the wheels. Even my stock Fusion Sport spins the tires under hard 1st gear acceleration until the TCS kicks in and kills the power anyway. My stock Skyline will spin up the rears under hard acceleration too and it only claims 260PS. I'm sure if it had TCS it'd kill the power just as quick as your Fusion. AdmiralViscen posted:I disagree, I think it is very obvious even in normal driving. On a 135i it'd be obvious. On a 114i/d far less so.
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Jun 24, 2012 05:39
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Also most FWD cars come with economy tires and an open differential. Knowing BMW, there will probably be a lot of tricky technology going into getting the power to the ground. There have been good FWD cars with power though:  Which was 4 seconds faster around Nordschleife than the BMW 335i coupe, by coincidence, and only .8 seconds slower than an E46 M3.
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Jun 24, 2012 07:34
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BoostCreep posted:Also most FWD cars come with economy tires and an open differential. Knowing BMW, there will probably be a lot of tricky technology going into getting the power to the ground. Well it's a platform share with the new Mini, so probably something like the "EDLC" electronic LSD from the JCW Mini. I know nothing about this, but reading the ad copy, it claims to be infinitely variable between 0-50% of something, so I guess it's some sort of computer controlled lockup thing. Or else they'll just do that e-diff thing where you use the brakes to simulate an LSD on an open diff. Either that or some sort of AWD. Maybe also some vroom noises hooked to the speakers since you won't be able to fit more than a turbo 4 in there  You can of course make a FWD car fast. It just will feel different. You might not notice the difference much when you're puttering around the parking lot, but I bet you drat sure will if you're tracking it or otherwise pushing it. The whole using the throttle to pull the car into a turn (induce oversteer) is arguably more fun (subjectively). Normally this isn't a huge loss compared to the cost savings and also packaging advantages of FWD, but when you're paying BMW money, since I doubt they'll lower their prices much, I'd rather buy a new Cadillac ATS or something. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 07:49
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PT6A posted:FWD correlates strongly with "lovely" even if it's not responsible for it. I think it's more a case of "being fun to drive" is rather low on the priority list for most manufacturers' mainstream cars. They're designed primarily for comfort, economy and practicality, because that's what most people want. Of course, some manufacturers try to buck the trend a bit, which is why companies like Alfa Romeo, Mazda, Ford etc. are generally praised for their great-handling everyday FWD cars. On the flip side, they're also generally criticized for stiff suspensions, road noise and lacking interior trim quality. AI is an enthusiast forum, so of course we value "fun to drive" higher than most people. Which is exactly why my list of cars I'm looking to buy next contains stuff like the Mazda 3 and the Ford Focus. I don't care much about interior quality or a pillow-soft ride, but I do care about how fun the car is to drive. Cream_Filling posted:To be fair, 335+ hp like in the 1M in a FWD car would be pretty bad. They could still have a performance model, but it wouldn't be a mini-M3 like the 1M is supposed to be. They'd have to either cut the power and cut a lot of weight or else do up some sort of AWD system to handle that level of power, both of which makes it less likely that a future 1M would be more available than the current one. There is definitely a limit to how much power you can put through FWD before it starts to get unwieldy. Watch the Top Gear review of the Alfa Romeo 147 GTA. 250HP through the front wheels and no LSD nor AWD is just too much. Same with the Opel/Vauxhall Vectra OPC/VXR. Too much power for the chassis to handle. But as the Mazdaspeed 3 and Focus RS has shown, with an LSD and a proper setup, 260hp or even 300hp to the front wheels can work pretty well, if you know what you're doing. I don't think BMW would ever make a FWD M-car. But then again, we also didn't think they'd ever make an M-car that wasn't naturally aspirated, and look at their current line-up. Turbos everywhere. AdmiralViscen posted:I disagree, I think it is very obvious even in normal driving. That depends on your definition of "normal driving" I drove my parents' Mercedes 190 2.5 turbodiesel for years, and that had plenty of torque for various shenanigans. But compared to their current Citroën C5? No difference in everyday driving at all. If anything, the C5 feels a lot more confident on roundabouts and long sweeping corners. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 12:39
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BoostCreep posted:Also most FWD cars come with economy tires and an open differential. Knowing BMW, there will probably be a lot of tricky technology going into getting the power to the ground. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urwJVnWHjiI grover fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Jun 24, 2012 |
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Jun 24, 2012 13:51
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rscott posted:The FWD drive BMW is going to have a 1.5L 3 cylinder motor, that seems awfully weird. How are they going to deal with the generally undesirable NVH qualities you get with a 3 cylinder motor? Sounds like it's going to be a tiny, possibly European only car anyways. I'd guess that yeah, it'll be Euro-only, and cars in Europe aren't held to the same NVH standards we do, since they all drive tiny RWD diesel station wagon sports cars in twisty mountain roads and superior German (but still car-prioritized) cities, and don't just turn right twice and set the cruise (literally all American driving).
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Jun 24, 2012 14:09
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I may be wrong, but I believe the development work Rover did on the 75 involved much bet-hedging and joint development, and that the shell was intended to be viable for both longitudinal RWD and transverse FWD. When they built the V8 versions, it was the same floorpan etc as the cooking model.
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Jun 24, 2012 15:28
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BoostCreep posted:Also most FWD cars come with economy tires and an open differential. And most RWD cars don't? InitialDave posted:I may be wrong, but I believe the development work Rover did on the 75 involved much bet-hedging and joint development, and that the shell was intended to be viable for both longitudinal RWD and transverse FWD. When they built the V8 versions, it was the same floorpan etc as the cooking model. And they ended up badly compromising packaging in the process. Quite a big deal in a mid sized sedan.
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Jun 24, 2012 20:30
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dissss posted:And most RWD cars don't? Considering most RWD cars these days are outright sports or muscle cars, the statistics get skewed a lot. There aren't a lot of new humdrum workaday RWD cars anymore. I guess you could make a case that the lower-tier BMWs are humdrum and workaday, but they're about the only ones left. Even then, they're still towards the luxury end of the scale.
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Jun 24, 2012 20:53
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dissss posted:Its kinda silly to compromise the volume sellers on account of the extremely rare top spec models. Remember your basic model petrol or diesel 1-series has ~100HP At least in the US, we only get the 128 and the 135, so it's not really "expensive Golf" positioning here.
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Jun 25, 2012 02:40
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InitialDave posted:I'm always willing to stick up for torsion beams. They're simple, light, and a well-designed one is like having trailing arm IRS with an integrated anti-roll bar. Its not a torsion beam like a VW (which is okay despite having absurd unsprung weight and weird characteristics with bushing deflection), but this is a beam that doesn't twist, its basically a 4 link dead axle.
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Jun 25, 2012 02:55
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KozmoNaut posted:Considering most RWD cars these days are outright sports or muscle cars, the statistics get skewed a lot. Yeah, but a lot of RWD outright sports cars still come with open diffs. They're not standard on Miatas, Mustangs, Camaros, 350Zs, Genesis Coupes, or even Boxsters and Caymans. I'm always shocked by how many very sporty cars don't have LSDs when my chumpy little Civic Si does.
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Jun 25, 2012 04:39
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PeterWeller posted:Yeah, but a lot of RWD outright sports cars still come with open diffs. They're not standard on Miatas, Mustangs, Camaros, 350Zs, Genesis Coupes, or even Boxsters and Caymans. I'm always shocked by how many very sporty cars don't have LSDs when my chumpy little Civic Si does. I can only speak for Mustangs in the above list, but since 2011 they all come with rear LSDs.
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Jun 25, 2012 04:49
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KozmoNaut posted:Considering most RWD cars these days are outright sports or muscle cars, the statistics get skewed a lot. Yeah pretty much just Lexus and Infinti trying to compete with BMW there. I was think of the big  models though which are still fairly big sellers in my part of the world - you don't get LSDs there until you spec up to the V8s with silly suspension.KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:At least in the US, we only get the 128 and the 135, so it's not really "expensive Golf" positioning here. Yes but if I recall correctly the 1 in the USA doesn't sell in anywhere near the volume it does in Europe (where it'd be predominately the 5 door with little diesels)
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Jun 25, 2012 06:53
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dissss posted:And most RWD cars don't? My point was that the Cobalt SS is set up for performance, while the Cobalt LT or whatever the base model is called is not. Which is why the SS can match an M3 around a racetrack while the LT can barely maneuver around a parking lot. The argument here is that the 1 series FWD will be "turned into a piece of poo poo". I'm just providing a counter point that not all FWD cars are pieces of poo poo. Most FWD cars are not set up for performance, but given the right parts and tuning, a FWD 1 series could perform extremely well. That FWD Cobalt made it around the ring less than a second slower than a RWD performance machine that had 83 more horsepower. Pretty much proof that FWD cars can be designed to perform. And let's not even get into the price difference. On the flip side, I had a '98 240sx base model for a while which means it had no LSD. If the road was even the slightest bit damp, that car would fishtail and wobble like crazy on turns. It had lovely 14" wheels with thin economy tires to boot. Of course we all know what that car is capable of with proper rubber and limited slip differential. It's all a matter of how well a car is set up.
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Jun 25, 2012 08:15
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BoostCreep posted:My point was that the Cobalt SS is set up for performance, while the Cobalt LT or whatever the base model is called is not. Which is why the SS can match an M3 around a racetrack while the LT can barely maneuver around a parking lot. The argument here is that the 1 series FWD will be "turned into a piece of poo poo". I'm just providing a counter point that not all FWD cars are pieces of poo poo. Don't get me wrong I agree that FWD isn't the minus its made out to be, at least in fairly lightweight cars. I also don't think that by comparing two times done seven years apart by totally drivers you can claim a Cobalt is going to match an E46 M3 around a track.
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Jun 25, 2012 09:29
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from http://www.leftlanenews.com/tauro-sport-auto-v8-spider.html So Tauro Auto Sport, some Spanish company, is making what appear to be rebodied Solstices with LS3 engines, Corvette transmissions and brakes. I don't think it looks that great but I certainly wouldn't mind a 2,650lbs Corvette. They're only making 30 of them though, which makes me wonder if they just found a stash of 30 Solstices somewhere and decided they could make some quick money. 
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Jun 25, 2012 16:50
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PeterWeller posted:Yeah, but a lot of RWD outright sports cars still come with open diffs. They're not standard on Miatas, Mustangs, Camaros, 350Zs, Genesis Coupes, or even Boxsters and Caymans. I'm always shocked by how many very sporty cars don't have LSDs when my chumpy little Civic Si does. Most of those can still have an acceptable driving experience with some fun, whereas an overpowered FWD car with an open diff (and unequal length drive axles combined with that) ends up being a torque steering shitpile.
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Jun 25, 2012 17:23
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PeterWeller posted:Yeah, but a lot of RWD outright sports cars still come with open diffs. They're not standard on Miatas, Mustangs, Camaros, 350Zs, Genesis Coupes, or even Boxsters and Caymans. I'm always shocked by how many very sporty cars don't have LSDs when my chumpy little Civic Si does. Only the M-series BMW's get proper LSD's since around 1995 or so.
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Jun 25, 2012 17:27
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DJ Commie posted:Its not a torsion beam like a VW (which is okay despite having absurd unsprung weight and weird characteristics with bushing deflection), but this is a beam that doesn't twist, its basically a 4 link dead axle.  If it's just a four-linked dead axle, then yeah, that's in no way a torsion beam.
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Jun 25, 2012 18:27
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davebo posted:from http://www.leftlanenews.com/tauro-sport-auto-v8-spider.html If I wanted that, I'd probably find someone who'd gotten a Mallet conversion done: http://www.mallettcars.com/solstice-conversion.htm
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Jun 25, 2012 19:18
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Oh god yes, one of the LS7 Solstice conversions. Like a 21st century 427 Cobra.
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Jun 25, 2012 19:27
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kimbo305 posted:If I wanted that, I'd probably find someone who'd gotten a Mallet conversion done: Yeah but then you'd just have a really fast car that still looked like a penis.
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Jun 25, 2012 19:40
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To each his own. I would pay lots for a Solstice Coupe.
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Jun 25, 2012 20:53
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kimbo305 posted:If I wanted that, I'd probably find someone who'd gotten a Mallet conversion done: That's about eight grand less than a Flyin' Miata V8 conversion too, which is pretty crazy. Too bad they don't have a package to replace the terrible gearing in the five-speed with something more apropos for a sports car.
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Jun 25, 2012 21:03
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davebo posted:Yeah but then you'd just have a really fast car that still looked like a penis. Solution: Saturn Sky
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Jun 25, 2012 22:20
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Cream_Filling posted:Solution: Saturn Sky If I could get a Saturn Sky with an LS3 for the same price I got a C5 for in 2003 I'd do it in a second. Speaking of Saturns, I liked that they used "Redline" as the trim name for the faster turbo models. Chevy already has SS trims so I'm not sure where they would use it, but I wish some cars somewhere were still called relines.
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Jun 26, 2012 02:05
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DJ Commie posted:Most of those can still have an acceptable driving experience with some fun, whereas an overpowered FWD car with an open diff (and unequal length drive axles combined with that) ends up being a torque steering shitpile. Oh, for sure. I was only point out that many sporty RWD cars don't come with LSDs. PT6A posted:I can only speak for Mustangs in the above list, but since 2011 they all come with rear LSDs. Ahh, that's nice. My bad.
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Jun 26, 2012 07:26
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Focus ST first drive reviews have been slowly coming in (mostly from Europe) and they've all been really positive with some complaints about steering feel.
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Jun 26, 2012 14:08
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dissss posted:
It doesn't, it's pretty much positioned at people who want a E46-sized coupe or are nostalgic about the 2002. It also picks up sales due to Cheapest BMW On The Lot. As you can imagine that market isn't that large. 8,8 units in 2011 - the 3-series did that volume in December 2011 alone. KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 22:50
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Sigma X posted:A bit off-topic, but every time I see the ad for the new Mercedes which features a handsome, young-ish man drifting it across an intersection, I just bust out laughing. With the ignition in the ON position, press and hold the CALL and OK buttons on the steering wheel. This brings you into the engineering menu. Select Dyno Mode and press OK. This will disable all nanny aids until the engine is turned off.
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Jun 26, 2012 23:32
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Finally got my order confirmation from Ford for my Focus ST. And I'm getting a GoPro HD.
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Jun 30, 2012 06:52
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discstickers posted:Finally got my order confirmation from Ford for my Focus ST. And I'm getting a GoPro HD.
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Jul 14, 2012 20:54
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Speaking of the Focus, the "economy" model on this side of the Atlantic is a 1-litre - but you can have it with 125bhp. I remember when a turbocharged 100bhp per litre out the factory was  territory for a high-end, no-holds-barred performance model. Now significantly more than that is "Yeah, well, seemed like the best way to meet our efficiency targets".Not so much the specific output per se (there are some ludicrously strong older engines out there that have been shown to cope with taking this to silly levels), more that it's a normal, basic, cheap car. Makes me go  a bit.Edit: Note that the full engine, with ancillaries weighs 215lbs. Jesus Christ. InitialDave fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jul 14, 2012 |
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Jul 14, 2012 23:49
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