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I wonder if OP's dirty secrets of the Black Hand reboot is still on.
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Feb 15, 2016 20:55
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Mendrian posted:Yeah there's what you want and what you want. Source books set the tone. Imagine a book with no women in it, neither the art nor the fiction. The game isn't telling you that you can't play a woman but you're fighting it every step of the way, to say nothing of the majority fans who aren't even trying to fight it. A level beyond Fishmalk #puppybabymonkeymalk
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Feb 15, 2016 21:00
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Gotta say, this is pretty much exactly what I expected out of the oWoD stuff and the way they've been talking. And it's not going to affect CofD, so...I'm happy for a ringside seat to the return of 1995.
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Feb 15, 2016 21:15
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When it inevitably crashes and burns, they will turn to the nWoD older and wiser, and things will be set right. The Exarchs play right into the Ladder's plans...
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Feb 15, 2016 21:18
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Yeah, as long as this has absolutely zero impact on the 2nd editions in CofD, more power to them. They paid a money, and if they want a nostalgia trip let'em have it.
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Feb 15, 2016 21:42
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I don't have hard numbers or anything other than my vague impressions from talking to people and going to cons, but as far as I understand it, Scandinavia + Germany is way, way bigger on being oWoD holdouts than the US. Masquerade and Apocalypse are apparently comparatively big next to the nWoD. Like the Oslo brach of the Norwegian cult entertainment store Outland, which actually got POD copies of oWoD metaplot books when OPP put them up on DriveThruRPG, because apparently they expect that stuff to actually sell? The tail end of nWoD 1e certainly didn't sell well, because the shelves were completely barren. (Of course, I started watching the market during the period where nWoD 1e was at the end of its life, Internet purchases exploded, and the Anniversary editions happened, so it's natural my perspective would be skewed towards observing an older audience buying 20-year-old games.)
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Feb 15, 2016 22:23
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No, I also get the impression that regionalism is a big part of this decision. Paradox Interactive has accepted shifting a little towards the US market, but the company as a whole is still focused on Europe, especially Germany.
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Feb 15, 2016 22:26
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I wonder how much they're underestimating people who like the OWoD but who's tastes are more in the Revised spectrum rather than the other aspects? But yeah I don't really know anything about the tastes of the European WoD audience.
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Feb 15, 2016 22:29
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Kavak posted:No, I also get the impression that regionalism is a big part of this decision. Paradox Interactive has accepted shifting a little towards the US market, but the company as a whole is still focused on Europe, especially Germany. This is 100% true and a lot of balance decisions in their games have been based purely on nationalism. They make real good poo poo despite that, so I'm hoping that'll hold true with any WoD games.
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Feb 15, 2016 22:34
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Brother Entropy posted:"CoD was less popular so we'll never make a non tg media push for it" seems like he's kinda getting cause and effect backwards. The original World of Darkness lines were released under market conditions that could never be matched by Chronicles of Darkness, even when it was NWoD. CofD/NWoD was released during a period of collapse for the TTRPG industry triggered by D&D 3.5 and the D20 glut. It's not an insult to say it's less popular. WW could have released metaplot-reset versions of the WoD lines or new editions or whatever and they wouldn't have done any better. But deserved or not, that difference in popularity does impact the ability to spin it off, simply because fewer people know of one than the other.
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Feb 15, 2016 22:36
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The post isn't public but Chris McDonough replied to Matt McFarland's Facebook post on this with "He didn't really mean it, he just got a little over excited." And that we should "Cut him some slack and give him a chance to clarify his true intentions."
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Feb 15, 2016 22:38
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Swagger Dagger posted:This is 100% true and a lot of balance decisions in their games have been based purely on nationalism. They make real good poo poo despite that, so I'm hoping that'll hold true with any WoD games.
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Feb 15, 2016 22:39
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Rohan Kishibe posted:Making your sole customer focus nostalgic balding 40 year old weirdos instead of trying to appeal to new customers by not channeling the Platonic Ideal of Columbine is completely sound and has never hosed any industry over ever, so I can only see Paradox interactive going from strength to strength here. Thing is, this industry already got hosed over by that. 40 year old weirdos ARE the industry at this point. New blood going into the hobby has shrunk to a barely visible trickle. TTGs ain't dying - they're dead.
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Feb 15, 2016 22:43
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MalcolmSheppard posted:The original World of Darkness lines were released under market conditions that could never be matched by Chronicles of Darkness, even when it was NWoD. CofD/NWoD was released during a period of collapse for the TTRPG industry triggered by D&D 3.5 and the D20 glut. It's not an insult to say it's less popular. WW could have released metaplot-reset versions of the WoD lines or new editions or whatever and they wouldn't have done any better. But deserved or not, that difference in popularity does impact the ability to spin it off, simply because fewer people know of one than the other. That's why the smart move is, of course, to just make the post-apocalyptic oWoD happen to look exactly like the nWoD. Maybe mumble some stuff about intersecting parallel timelines.
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Feb 15, 2016 22:43
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ProfessorCirno posted:Thing is, this industry already got hosed over by that. 40 year old weirdos ARE the industry at this point. New blood going into the hobby has shrunk to a barely visible trickle. TTGs ain't dying - they're dead. Oh wait no it's the exact opposite of everything you just said. I'll never understand why people like you want this hobby, ostensibly your hobby, to die out in truth. It's not making Koch Brothers level money, but it's getting new blood of all ages and as long as people are willing to include new people instead of reacting with "you don't know and I won't teach besides this hobby sucks and is dead gently caress off" it will continue to exist.
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Feb 15, 2016 22:55
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Yawgmoth posted:This is very true which is is why I see multiple groups on multiple college campuses with exclusively straight-from-high-school kids to new post-grads playing an assortment of TTGs. I don't think Cirno wants that, I think he's just embittered from his time posting on Paizo's forum and ENWorld. That's all on him tho.
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Feb 15, 2016 22:59
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Well, on some level I guess it's kind of nice to know for certain that nWoD games are definitely, 100% dead as a concept instead of being left wondering. Gonna have to light a candle in front of my copy of Changeling: The Lost, not that it was ever seriously in the running. And, I mean, Bloodlines managed to build a great, atmospheric game out of some pretty questionable source material. But I feel sorry for whatever developer has to spin the PC groups of Mage and especially Werewolf into something palatable.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:01
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Yawgmoth posted:This is very true which is is why I see multiple groups on multiple college campuses with exclusively straight-from-high-school kids to new post-grads playing an assortment of TTGs. Yeah, in my uni the tabletop RPG society was the third biggest society. But I can understand Paradox's decision. I quite liked the honesty of just saying 'look, nobody bought this so we're not going to chance spending a ton of money making a game that we don't have a guaranteed market for'. Maybe if they put out a few oWoD games, they'll feel confident trying a little cross-branding and do something NwoD, although I doubt it.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:03
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Androc posted:Well, on some level I guess it's kind of nice to know for certain that nWoD games are definitely, 100% dead as a concept instead of being left wondering. Gonna have to light a candle in front of my copy of Changeling: The Lost, not that it was ever seriously in the running. EDIT: Just realized you meant video games, sorry.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:07
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GimpInBlack posted:That's not what he said. nWoD, which has been rebranded as Chronicles of Darkness, is continuing in TTRPG form and the second editions are continuing to roll out, with Mage, Promethean, Changeling and Hunter 2e already announced and in various stages of development. You're not likely to see Changeling: The Lost: the Movie/Videogame/Lunchbox/Flamethrower any time soon, but OPP is still publishing and supporting the line. CoD 2, the Quest for More Money
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Feb 15, 2016 23:07
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GimpInBlack posted:EDIT: Just realized you meant video games, sorry. For what it's worth, I do definitely appreciate that cWoD is being allowed to at least continue as its own thing instead of being axed entirely. But, yeah, them's the breaks. I really should start up that future Werewolf game I've been meaning to run on the forums one of these days.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:10
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Yawgmoth posted:This is very true which is is why I see multiple groups on multiple college campuses with exclusively straight-from-high-school kids to new post-grads playing an assortment of TTGs. Lightning Lord posted:I don't think Cirno wants that, I think he's just embittered from his time posting on Paizo's forum and ENWorld. That's all on him tho. UrbicaMortis posted:Yeah, in my uni the tabletop RPG society was the third biggest society. But I can understand Paradox's decision. I quite liked the honesty of just saying 'look, nobody bought this so we're not going to chance spending a ton of money making a game that we don't have a guaranteed market for'. The problem is that we have different interactions I suppose? I was in college altogether from 2004 though 2012, more then one school, and I never saw robust ttg playing. From what I've heard from friends and contacts still at those schools, that hasn't changed. You have the Paradox dude there openly stating that ttgs are not a primary business because they just barely make enough money to stay afloat. That's not just nWoD - that's the whole goddamn industry. Nobody's asking for Koch Brothers money, but I don't think it's even making current day comic books money. Of course I don't want this hobby to die out; I'd love for it to grow and flourish. But what you want isn't always what you get.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:29
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Frankly I don't think a video game would do a very good job of capturing the eerie, "you don't know what's going on" atmosphere of CoD. OWoD lends itself well to games like Bloodlines, but it would be really hard to capture stuff like Demon or Changeling in a video game, at least one that people would buy. "Yeah, I'm at the end of the game, this boss fight where I kill the God Machine is hard, I can kill all ten of the angel adds but his second form wrecks me" "LF2M Arcadia need heals."
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Feb 15, 2016 23:35
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Part of the thing I find with tabletop games is that just because people are playing games doesn't mean they are buying them. In the entire time I've been playing games with my current group of compadres, I can list all the books that anyone who isn't me has bought. One guy bought the 4e Player's handbook, one girl bought the mouse guard box set, and one dude bought Edge of the Empire. That's it. They all either rely on me bringing my stuff or, in the last guy's case, play homebrews of game systems they bought like 20+ books for back in the late 90s. That ain't great for making money.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:43
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Gilok posted:Frankly I don't think a video game would do a very good job of capturing the eerie, "you don't know what's going on" atmosphere of CoD. OWoD lends itself well to games like Bloodlines, but it would be really hard to capture stuff like Demon or Changeling in a video game, at least one that people would buy. Apocalypse totally lends itself to group-heavy MMO design, of course.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:45
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MalcolmSheppard posted:The original World of Darkness lines were released under market conditions that could never be matched by Chronicles of Darkness, even when it was NWoD. CofD/NWoD was released during a period of collapse for the TTRPG industry triggered by D&D 3.5 and the D20 glut. It's not an insult to say it's less popular. WW could have released metaplot-reset versions of the WoD lines or new editions or whatever and they wouldn't have done any better. But deserved or not, that difference in popularity does impact the ability to spin it off, simply because fewer people know of one than the other. Oh yeah, I'm aware the market conditions are wildly different. It just feels a little unfair(to my admittedly biased, CoD-loving self) that CoD as a setting never really even got/will get a chance to broaden its audience outside of tabletop. All that said, it's a minor complaint and I'll buy almost any WoD game Paradox puts out in the future(unless it's oChangeling  )
Brother Entropy fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Feb 15, 2016 |
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Feb 15, 2016 23:48
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Pope Guilty posted:Apocalypse totally lends itself to group-heavy MMO design, of course. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic but yeah it kind of does.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:53
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Gilok posted:Frankly I don't think a video game would do a very good job of capturing the eerie, "you don't know what's going on" atmosphere of CoD. OWoD lends itself well to games like Bloodlines, but it would be really hard to capture stuff like Demon or Changeling in a video game, at least one that people would buy. Someone's never played Alpha Protocol.
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Feb 15, 2016 23:58
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Ah, yes, the whole "Quantum Physics is maaagic!" bit. How very Deepak. Ultimately, it's sad for me to see. At its height, World of Darkness was surprising and exciting, written not always well, often quite badly, but with a lot of infectious enthusiasm even at its worst. It was modern and in tune with the times it was written in. Now it's just another schtick routine for old gamers to recapture their youth. Congratulations, World of Darkness. You've become Generation X's AD&D, how does it feel? Gilok posted:Frankly I don't think a video game would do a very good job of capturing the eerie, "you don't know what's going on" atmosphere of CoD. OWoD lends itself well to games like Bloodlines, but it would be really hard to capture stuff like Demon or Changeling in a video game, at least one that people would buy. Nah, it's possible; there are plenty of games that actually create such a mood, whether it's Silent Hill or Killer7 or even something like Outlast. Granted, those games probably have more limited appeal than an Werewolf MMO, but it's definitely possible with the right dev team.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:02
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I'd -hope- that the video-game side of Paradox is smarter than to try and do an MMO these days. I mean, really. ...Instead we'll get a Werewolf MOBA.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:08
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Yeah, I don't think we'd see them do an MMO, it was just a topical example. Hopefully they'll get together with Obsidian on this as rumored.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:10
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Nah, it's possible; there are plenty of games that actually create such a mood, whether it's Silent Hill or Killer7 or even something like Outlast. Granted, those games probably have more limited appeal than an Werewolf MMO, but it's definitely possible with the right dev team. Yeah, you could absolutely make a CoD game, but it'd have to be a CoD game - that is to say, you're a normal rear end human dealing with poo poo way above your ability to handle them. It'd actually be a great match for the horror (or potentially horror/action, but I think the more action the worse in this case) genre, but then, I dunno of many ttg properties that went into something OTHER then crpgs that tried to copy it's ruleset as much as possible (outside of the two arcade D&D games, which are the best two D&D games ever, coincidence?????). The horror genre for games has gotten substantially more popular with the rise of youtube superstars and twitch streaming, and I could see a CoD based game fitting in there perfectly.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:10
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quote:Too bad it never sold for poo poo and that old players hated it. It lacked the epic scope and the punk passion of the classic WoD. Had it done even remotely as well as the classic WoD things would be very different. This is such a loving bald-faced lie. In the halcyon days before the entire world economy got hosed in 2008, nWoD stuff sold extremely well. I know in my town (Montreal), they often had to restock the shelves and if you didn't get a new book the week after it got published you better hope there would be a second printing or you'd find a used copy somewhere or it would be expensive ebay time. Plenty of newcomers, larps everywhere, the good poo poo. Then some bankers hosed everyone over and print gaming got crushed.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:15
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MonsieurChoc posted:This is such a loving bald-faced lie. In the halcyon days before the entire world economy got hosed in 2008, nWoD stuff sold extremely well. I know in my town (Montreal), they often had to restock the shelves and if you didn't get a new book the week after it got published you better hope there would be a second printing or you'd find a used copy somewhere or it would be expensive ebay time. Plenty of newcomers, larps everywhere, the good poo poo. Yeah, I wouldn't help but think this morning "Wait, aren't there a poo poo-ton of books for Requiem? Doesn't that imply they weren't exactly losing money?" I mean, a lot of late-stage World of Darkness stuff flopped a lot harder. Cowboy Werewolves, anyone?
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Feb 16, 2016 00:18
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Again, I think this is a regional thing. There appears to be a huge divide between North America (or at least the English-speaking world) and continental Europe, and I think the One World of Darkness is going to land very badly outside there. Were those books in Montreal written in French or English?
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Feb 16, 2016 00:21
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Kavak posted:Again, I think this is a regional thing. There appears to be a huge divide between North America (or at least the English-speaking world) and continental Europe, and I think the One World of Darkness is going to land very badly outside there. English, because Quebecois get hosed over on translations: it's all translated in France and then imported, so normal books cost 5-10 bucks more in french than the englush version and gaming books double that number. Since most gamers are bilingual, we just buy the books in english instead. I get french books only when buying used or they're originally in french. Furthermore, french translations of the wod were usually terrible: in the few Masquerade books I got in french, the name of many disciplines is different in every book.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:26
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ProfessorCirno posted:Yeah, you could absolutely make a CoD game, but it'd have to be a CoD game - that is to say, you're a normal rear end human dealing with poo poo way above your ability to handle them. It'd actually be a great match for the horror (or potentially horror/action, but I think the more action the worse in this case) genre, but then, I dunno of many ttg properties that went into something OTHER then crpgs that tried to copy it's ruleset as much as possible (outside of the two arcade D&D games, which are the best two D&D games ever, coincidence?????). The horror genre for games has gotten substantially more popular with the rise of youtube superstars and twitch streaming, and I could see a CoD based game fitting in there perfectly. It'd have to be a CoD game, which is to say that it could run the gamut from Amnesia: Dark Descent to Saint's Row 4 to Endless Legend. What the gently caress.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:27
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Do y'all think there's a bit of a divide between OWoD players who came in with Revised and those who are attached to the previous editions?
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Feb 16, 2016 00:27
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Most definitely. I didn't get into WOD in Revised so when people started accosting me for all the skeezy poo poo from Werewolf 1st and 2nd ed I was notably confused. I'm also pretty okay with CofD (at least 2nd ed, 1st ed Forsaken had some issues)
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Feb 16, 2016 00:30
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Lightning Lord posted:Do y'all think there's a bit of a divide between OWoD players who came in with Revised and those who are attached to the previous editions? I came in towards the tail end of Revised and I'm a die-hard nWoD fan so for my money, yes. I think the idea that the WoD taking itself seriously means the same thing as the WoD being less fun or exciting comes at least in part from a lot of the people who e.g. saw Ascension Revised as a traitorous plot to turn Mage into Vampire.
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Feb 16, 2016 00:34
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