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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I think a big problem with single payer is that most people have coverage and most people with coverage are generally satisfied with their coverage situation, regardless of source, and saying "we're going to take away this thing you like and replace it with something better" requires a level of trust that I'm not sure you're gonna get. That's generally my own stance but I also recognize that there's a lot of people in the party who don't agree with that and if they want to propose single-payer, I am done fighting wth them over why it's politically dangerous.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:03
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Kilroy posted:It wasn't even "the establishment" since plenty of them backed Ellison, it was Obama finally using that political capital he's been saving since 2008 to gently caress over his own party. Given the unprecedented upsurge in antisemitic attacks occurring across America, I am glad that Barack Obama has been willing to use his political capital to marginalize allies of Louis Farakhan.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:03
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Kilroy posted:It wasn't even "the establishment" since plenty of them backed Ellison, it was Obama finally using that political capital he's been saving since 2008 to gently caress over his own party. Political Capital: so terrible and nonexistent that it manifested itself just to cripple the party obsessed with its existence.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:03
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I don't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG7w3Oey3xs not happening under centrists
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Feb 28, 2017 23:03
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The Kingfish posted:See above. If its something she would have fought for then everyone in America should have known it was one of her policy planks by November, but its hard to determine where incompetence meets tepidness with HRC. Basically, just ask anyone to name Hillary's 3 primary policy planks in under 5 seconds. I can do it with Trump. Brainiac Five posted:The basic and fundamental problem here is that people don't want policies, they want slogans and advertising, and they have convinced themselves that doing so is being authentic to what people want. This seems really hard to reconcile with historical evidence. They want policy goals not a thousand pages of wonk cumstains.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:04
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Neurolimal posted:You're making assumptions that we didn't need Obama's charisma and engagement of young voters and activists. After the number of incorrect assumptions involving a recent election, I personally would stick to real arguments instead of depleted faith in your soothsaying. Did you actually read the post? negative attacks worked in 2006 despite Obama's absence.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:04
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Most struggling americans aren't satisfied with paying for noncomprehensive insurance, and the ones that are typically are using a fake $1 insurance to avoid the penalty (aka exactly where they were before ACA).
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Feb 28, 2017 23:05
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loquacius posted:I said the problem is that Dem primary voters have a certain tendency, where did you get purging traitors from out of that How do you get rid of the problem that people who care about politics care about what politicians have done, without getting rid of the people who care about politics? WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I think a big problem with single payer is that most people have coverage and most people with coverage are generally satisfied with their coverage situation, regardless of source, and saying "we're going to take away this thing you like and replace it with something better" requires a level of trust that I'm not sure you're gonna get. One possibility is emphasizing a public option aimed at small businesses and making healthcare more affordable for them, which sidesteps some of the issues around "welfare parasites" etc.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:06
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Neurolimal posted:Most struggling americans aren't satisfied with paying for noncomprehensive insurance, and the ones that are typically are using a fake $1 insurance to avoid the penalty (aka exactly where they were before ACA). A majority of Americans receive their healthcare through their employer and are generally satisfied with that arrangement, even if they're not always satisfied with the costs.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:07
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Brainiac Five posted:How do you get rid of the problem that people who care about politics care about what politicians have done, without getting rid of the people who care about politics? Perhaps we could focus this towards the owners of app startups, then the republicans really wont be able to say anything mean
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Feb 28, 2017 23:08
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Homeless Friend posted:They want policy goals not a thousand pages of wonk cumstains. Yes, you want slogans and don't care about anything behind the slogans. The New Deal should never have implemented complex programs like the WPA, they should have just relied on Madison Avenue and done nothing.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:08
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:That's generally my own stance but I also recognize that there's a lot of people in the party who don't agree with that and if they want to propose single-payer, I am done fighting wth them over why it's politically dangerous. Yeah sure, if single payer wins, great; but even vocally supporting a public option is a) something progressives have explicitly called for, b) is clearly to the left of Hillary's campaign, and c) is Good so I'm not gonna really cheer on casting someone out of the party or whatever because they don't call for single payer
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Feb 28, 2017 23:08
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Brainiac Five posted:Yes, you want slogans and don't care about anything behind the slogans. The New Deal should never have implemented complex programs like the WPA, they should have just relied on Madison Avenue and done nothing. read again
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Feb 28, 2017 23:08
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Yeah sure, if single payer wins, great; but even vocally supporting a public option is a) something progressives have explicitly called for, b) is clearly to the left of Hillary's campaign, and c) is Good so I'm not gonna really cheer on casting someone out of the party or whatever because they don't call for single payer I agree, but good luck with the BoB crowd.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:09
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I swear to god if you motherfuckers engage MIFG
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Feb 28, 2017 23:10
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Neurolimal posted:Perhaps we could focus this towards the owners of app startups, then the republicans really wont be able to say anything mean Neurolimited, don't you have racists to do apologetics for? Homeless Friend posted:read again The New Deal heavily consisted of "thousands of pages of wonk cumstains", you know. And yet, somehow, it didn't kill the Democratic Party as the Volk revolted against the effete bureaucrats. Mysterious, that. Almost as if the average person is a whole lot smarter than you are, and is capable of understanding complicated things, especially with propaganda assistance.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:11
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I am not coming up with the messaging, just the general strokes for what should underline it... but uh, on point one? He's already started loving things up for people. Rescinding the title ix protections for trans children is literally life threatening. his first act as president was to make it harder for minorities to get home loans. like he's doing all of those things already and it's only going to get worse. Obscure high school trans bathroom issues and wonky home loan executive orders are not the sort of things that draw people to the polls. Perez was chosen either because he isn't equally left wing or because he wasn't Bernie's choice. Either option is poo poo.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:11
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Brainiac Five posted:The New Deal heavily consisted of "thousands of pages of wonk cumstains", you know. And yet, somehow, it didn't kill the Democratic Party as the Volk revolted against the effete bureaucrats. Mysterious, that. Almost as if the average person is a whole lot smarter than you are, and is capable of understanding complicated things, especially with propaganda assistance. propganda, or otherwise known as: how to speak interact with fellow humans
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Feb 28, 2017 23:12
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The Kingfish posted:Obscure high school trans bathroom issues and wonky home loan executive orders are not the sort of things that draw people to the polls. This is a pretty interesting example of why "going left" doesn't make sense, because people will say that Democrats need to actually protect minorities, but also that we shouldn't commit to protecting minorities because the majority doesn't care, and so the overall message seems to be that protecting minorities means letting them suffer and pandering to the majority.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:13
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I get that and largely agree with you -- I am countering the narrative that RUNNING TO THE LEFT IS ALWAYS GOING TO WIN. Run not to the left. Run against finance.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:13
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"The New Deal" E:^ Run against banks. Run against Wall Street. Run against lobbyists. Run against billionaires. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 23:13
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Brainiac Five posted:The only reason to want my reasoning is to avoid evaluating the idea by looking for prospective flaws and attacking them. Why don't you instead offer a counter-proposition instead of this horseshit where you pretend neutrality until someone Schlieffen Plans you. Why don't you offer a proposition in the first place?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:13
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My Imaginary GF posted:Given the unprecedented upsurge in antisemitic attacks occurring across America, I am glad that Barack Obama has been willing to use his political capital to marginalize allies of Louis Farakhan. Now you post rudimentary bait like this. What happened to you, man?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:14
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The Kingfish posted:Obscure high school trans bathroom issues and wonky home loan executive orders are not the sort of things that draw people to the polls. Putting children at risk is hardly obscure and it worked well enough in the NC governor's race. The Kingfish posted:Perez was chosen either because he isn't equally left wing or because he wasn't Bernie's choice. Either option is poo poo. I supported Ellison, I just don't give enough fucks between them.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:14
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Yeah sure, if single payer wins, great; but even vocally supporting a public option is a) something progressives have explicitly called for, b) is clearly to the left of Hillary's campaign, and c) is Good so I'm not gonna really cheer on casting someone out of the party or whatever because they don't call for single payer if dems offered a drat public option i might vote for them. then again, the last time a centrist offered a public option he dropped it as soon as he was in office. edit: the best hillary offered was to support it at the state level. which does jack poo poo in all us states the dems have ceded to republicans
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Feb 28, 2017 23:15
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I am reminded of Hillary/Bernie debate & the fracking question. That always struck me as the perfect example of retarded dem messaging.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:15
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Brainiac Five posted:How do you get rid of the problem that people who care about politics care about what politicians have done, without getting rid of the people who care about politics? this question says a lot about you honestly It's a tendency that can be overcome by the right politician (see: Obama winning over HRC in 2008; Bernie falling just short of it in 2016) and we have to consider who we want to encourage to run on what message very carefully in order to not end up with the boringest wonkest wonk and lose the GE again. We do not have to "get rid of" the electorate, wtf.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:15
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Homeless Friend posted:propganda, or otherwise known as: how to speak interact with fellow humans Why should people pander to you? The Kingfish posted:"The New Deal" Why should people pander to you?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:16
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Putting children at risk is hardly obscure and it worked well enough in the NC governor's race. It's obscure as hell on the national level.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:16
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loquacius posted:this question says a lot about you honestly Right, so your answer is "rig the primaries". Also that knowledge is a bad thing.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:17
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Brainiac Five posted:Why should people pander to you? The majority of the population doesn't have autism b5.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:17
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I think its clear Perez was picked because idpol and with all the insane deportation poo poo, why not have a latino fighting on behalf of them? I consider myself to be someone on the radleft but I think there's too much of an overreaction regarding the optics. Sure I am concerned that there might still be a lack of transparency which opens them up to more interference from the likes of Russian-tied WikiLeaks, but there's nothing in Perez' strategy on rebuilding the Democratic Party I take issue with. I am optimistic Ellison will be pretty involved, even if "deputy chair" looks symbolic. I like the DSA and other progressive parties but they are pretty much irrelevant in America. It'll still be between Democrats and Republicans 2 and 4 years from now. Regardless of who you are affiliated with, we'll still have to vote for Democrats. There's no viable alternative.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:17
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Brainiac Five posted:Neurolimited, don't you have racists to do apologetics for? I've never seen someone point out a posters weird red text in an argument that didn't make them seem like they have no retort and are reaching. When people describe wonk, they are typically referring to bullshit DC logic and skills that hold no sway in reality. There are no secret requisites that will make republicans shut up about democrat bills. All hobbling your own bills to avoid mean words does is contribute to the narrative that democrats are incompetent. It's trying to find a formula for political capital, looking to discover a tangible form for austrian economics, it's 'optics' involving banning muslim americans from owning guns to somehow trick republicans into getting all the blame. It's inane bullshit. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Feb 28, 2017 |
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Feb 28, 2017 23:17
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The Kingfish posted:E:^ Run against banks. Run against Wall Street. Run against lobbyist. Run against billionaires. That's all meaningless populist bullshit though. Like what is your policy proposal here? The Kingfish posted:It's obscure as hell on the national level. It's not at all. "The Trump administration is actively trying to harm children, and continues to target the most vulnerable in our society."
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Feb 28, 2017 23:18
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Confounding Factor posted:I think its clear Perez was picked because idpol and with all the insane deportation poo poo, why not have a latino fighting on behalf of them? nah, just leftists. centrists can die off
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Feb 28, 2017 23:19
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Except they're handing it to an equally left wing guy who just isn't Bernie's Choice TM. The oh-so-reasonable "Tom is exactly like Keith, we just think it's really important for you to vote for Tom instead of Keith beca...OH LOOK, SHINY BALL" argument. Look, I certainly grant that Perez used to be a guy I'd call a moderate progressive. I was happy when he was appointed Secretary of Labor and I think he did a good job in that role given the constraints he faced. But when the establishment needed people to campaign against Bernie, Perez campaigned against Bernie. And when they needed someone to bring down Ellison, he answered the call. How many prominent progressives does Perez need to shank on the establishment's orders before it's OK to call him an establishment stooge? Do we really need to see a photograph of Perez shoving Liz Warren into Podesta's trunk before we make that judgment? The coal industry lobbyist giving his nomination speech makes it real hard to give Perez the benefit of the doubt here.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:19
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The Kingfish posted:It's obscure as hell on the national level. Just because you consider trans people contemptible doesn't mean the average person does, since the average person owns zero pointy hoods and at best one white robe. Homeless Friend posted:The majority of the population doesn't have autism b5. Why should people put the interests of an internet loser ahead of anything else when you do nothing but be a smarmy jackass? Would you magically morph into a human being instead of a blob that squeaks "autist! sperg!" if someone pretended you have value?
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Feb 28, 2017 23:19
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Brainiac Five posted:Right, so your answer is "rig the primaries". Also that knowledge is a bad thing. how is it that someone can even lose arguments while making up their opponents' points from whole cloth, I wonder I dunno man, I pointed out an obstacle the left faces in putting forth an actual good candidate and you somehow managed to read genocide and voter fraud into that, I don't think you're interested in having a good-faith discussion
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Feb 28, 2017 23:20
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The Little Kielbasa posted:The oh-so-reasonable "Tom is exactly like Keith, we just think it's really important for you to vote for Tom instead of Keith beca...OH LOOK, SHINY BALL" argument. Dude's been in office like three days and you're ready to string him up.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:20
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Brainiac Five posted:This doesn't scan with the actual election results. If it did HRC would have won. Remember how losing blue collarswould return three moderates.
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Feb 28, 2017 23:20
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