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ActusRhesus posted:Bullshit. You said minorities. So in your mind “minority” is synonymous with “powerless”? You knew what you were saying and it’s not the first time you’ve done it. I repeat. Go gently caress yourself. Also, “minority” is considered by many to be an offensive term. Especially in regions where they are not “the minority.” If you’re going to pull holier than thou bullshit, get the rhetoric right. You're right I can get really into my own world view. I'll spend some time thinking on this. For what it's worth I said minorities to include gender orientations that aren't treated fairly in our justice system and not just POC but I didn't think about how it can be offensive. I definitely shouldn't use minority to mean powerless.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:24
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mastershakeman posted:
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Jul 20, 2018 21:27
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ActusRhesus posted:The (legal) reason is because only actually crossing the border illegally is criminal (you are elligible for PDs even for misdemeanors. At least you are here.) illegal presence on the other hand is a civil violation. Administrative process. No right to counsel. I'm trying to remember the case, but Gorsuch or Thomas wrote a concurrance this year that basically outlines their (correct) belief that the civil/criminal distinction with regards to the 6th Amendment makes no drat sense and they would nix it. Fingers crossed.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:28
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ActusRhesus posted:Bullshit. You said minorities. So in your mind “minority” is synonymous with “powerless”? You knew what you were saying and it’s not the first time you’ve done it. I repeat. Go gently caress yourself. Also, “minority” is considered by many to be an offensive term. Especially in regions where they are not “the minority.” If you’re going to pull holier than thou bullshit, get the rhetoric right.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:28
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Look Sir Droids posted:It’s not breaking ACP if the lawyer is assisting with a crime. There is no ACP to break. I don’t see where the problem is unless you think a law license is a prophylactic to any warrant. There’s no slope being slid here if the warrant was obtained on the same standards as other crime-fraud exception warrants. The two issues I see here are, as has been pointed out, the contents of the recordings have already been leaked to the public. That should never have happened. Assuming there was probable cause to believe Cohen was assisting in a criminal enterprise which we can’t know without seeing the warrant (and do we know exactly what law was allegedly violated here? Paying your porn star mistress to shut up is legal albeit scummy) And in camera review. FBI should not have reviewed any of the docs themselves prior to in camera review and hearing. Which it appears never happened. Second, there’s privilege and there is duty of loyalty. Cohen has certainly violated the latter if not the former.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:30
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ActusRhesus posted:The two issues I see here are, as has been pointed out, the contents of the recordings have already been leaked to the public. That should never have happened. Assuming there was probable cause to believe Cohen was assisting in a criminal enterprise which we can’t know without seeing the warrant (and do we know exactly what law was allegedly violated here? Paying your porn star mistress to shut up is legal albeit scummy) And in camera review. FBI should not have reviewed any of the docs themselves prior to in camera review and hearing. Which it appears never happened. I think it's election laws - if they paid to suppress it to give him an advantage in the election then it would qualify as a campaign contribution, undisclosed and way too big
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Jul 20, 2018 21:32
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Yuns posted:The brutality of that response made me want you to be my future former second spouse ActusRhesus. AR, go get that sweet alimony check.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:34
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joat mon posted:1. Investigators have to internally establish clear and convincing burden of proof to justify asking for warrants for potentially ACR materials. Yeah. As the resident government hack tool of the man, I could still get on board with all of this. And “seize ALL papers and let the judge sort it out. No sifting through finding the “good ones” and then having to deal with whether or not Wong-Sun applies if you got it wrong. Really can’t unring that bell. I’d also add more than one judge needs to sign off. Attorney client relationship is sacrosanct. That was what pissed me off most about OMC. When they bugged the lawyer meeting rooms. That was appalling. I say this as someone who worked CT held a TS-SCI clearance and knew exactly who those people were. Yeah. They all deserved a lethal injection. But you don’t destroy the process just to make sure you “get the bad guy”.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:37
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ActusRhesus posted:The two issues I see here are, as has been pointed out, the contents of the recordings have already been leaked to the public. That should never have happened. Assuming there was probable cause to believe Cohen was assisting in a criminal enterprise which we can’t know without seeing the warrant (and do we know exactly what law was allegedly violated here? Paying your porn star mistress to shut up is legal albeit scummy) And in camera review. FBI should not have reviewed any of the docs themselves prior to in camera review and hearing. Which it appears never happened. Then I was disagreeing with something no one was arguing, I guess. I agree about the leak and review, although I see no reason to assume the leak came from the government. It doesn’t help the prosecution side to leak it. Cohen violating professional conduct rules seems unrelated to any due process issues. Bad lawyers result in prejudice but not excludable prejudice.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:37
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ActusRhesus posted:FBI should not have reviewed any of the docs themselves prior to in camera review and hearing. Which it appears never happened. based on what's been filed so far, no one on the investigative team has reviewed any documents prior to them being cleared by the Special Master
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Jul 20, 2018 21:39
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nm posted:AR, go get that sweet alimony check. Yuns is a partner, right?
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Jul 20, 2018 21:40
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ActusRhesus posted:Yuns is a partner, right? Big law partner in a city big enough to have a commuter train that a partner would take. GET MONEY
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Jul 20, 2018 21:42
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nm posted:They'd still only have lawyers on the criminal side. Like when I was a PD I handled the criminal part of the dui, but I was prohibited from helping with the admin license suspension. I just listened to a whole podcast episode about how the secret goal here is to get everyone a criminal record . Argh I have no idea whats going on with all this
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Jul 20, 2018 21:42
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Look Sir Droids posted:Then I was disagreeing with something no one was arguing, I guess. It’s still a problem. I’m not saying they are the same problem. A lawyer can violate all kinds of professional ethics rules up to straight up malpractice without violating Strickland. IAC bar is pretty drat high. Not many situations rise to the Cronic test.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:44
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ActusRhesus posted:Yuns is a partner, right?
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Jul 20, 2018 21:44
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nm posted:Big law partner in a city big enough to have a commuter train that a partner would take. GET MONEY Well hello there tall dark and will never be home to see how many affairs I’m having....
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Jul 20, 2018 21:45
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joat mon posted:1. Investigators have to internally establish clear and convincing burden of proof to justify asking for warrants for potentially ACR materials. Yeah, that. And thats what's happening in the Trump Case, I'm sure. The only reason we know whats on the tape is because a "source" leaked the information to CNN and Guiliani confirmed it. My problem isn't with the tape, or Trump, or CNN - its with the glibness and reckless abandon that people clamber over the crushed and crumbling bulwarks of our justice system to grab that hit of cheeto-colored dopamine. No due process has been violated so far, that we know of. Criminal acts are being investigated. All good things. People are cheering because they're kicking the "right guy" in the nuts, and its OK for me to worry that people are getting desensitized to the fact that its a very important, and (yes, I'll say it) sacred thing that has to be pierced to get that information. No, people shouldn't be able to hide criminal activity because they cc a lawyer on re:re:re:fwd:fwd:re: "Bank Robbin Time!" email string, but we should all take care that getting that information doesn't break them system by attrition and general apathy.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:46
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Important question Yuns - do you wake your spouse up getting in bed at 2am and out at 5am (assuming she doesn't do similar crazy hours)
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Jul 20, 2018 21:47
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Hoshi posted:You're right I can get really into my own world view. I'll spend some time thinking on this. For what it's worth I said minorities to include gender orientations that aren't treated fairly in our justice system and not just POC but I didn't think about how it can be offensive. I definitely shouldn't use minority to mean powerless. drat dude, you just let AR stomp all over you like a Nazi.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:49
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For the record, there was a special master appointed for all the documents seized from Manafort, they did this completely above board because the stakes are unbelievably high. But as said before: A) Manafort didn't really have "clients" for a large portion of his career, at best he was a fixer B) This is the biggest group of loud-mouthed chucklefucks in America. There is no doubt in my mind that these leaks came from someone other than the government.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:50
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Cohen might have leaked it to try to get a pardon
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Jul 20, 2018 21:53
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Look Sir Droids posted:It’s not breaking ACP if the lawyer is assisting with a crime. There is no ACP to break. I don’t see where the problem is unless you think a law license is a prophylactic to any warrant. There’s no slope being slid here if the warrant was obtained on the same standards as other crime-fraud exception warrants. Busting ACR is the nuclear option and should be used very rarely if only for the strong public policy reasons to maintain a functioning concept of ACR.. The high profile of Cohen's case and the apparent ease with which the ACR material was obtained and put in play by investigators is going to embolden a lot of prosecutors. Just as bad is the example to the general public that 1) Messing with ACR isn't a big deal, and 2) ACR isn't worth poo poo. Hoshi posted:I think it's election laws - if they paid to suppress it to give him an advantage in the election then it would qualify as a campaign contribution, undisclosed and way too big
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Jul 20, 2018 21:53
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My average day 12 to 12 - fuckin and drinkin
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Jul 20, 2018 21:53
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Hoshi posted:Important question Yuns - do you wake your spouse up getting in bed at 2am and out at 5am (assuming she doesn't do similar crazy hours) Yuns fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jul 20, 2018 |
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Jul 20, 2018 21:54
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I'm the guys getting worried about privilege issues for a guy who wasn't really a lawyer and was clearly using his role to further and commit criminal offences
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Jul 20, 2018 21:55
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Yuns posted:On the weekdays I sleep in my home office or the guest bedroom because my wife gets super pissed at my alarm going off around 5 am. I only sleep in the master bedroom on the weekends. GET MONEY: "Sign me up!"
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Jul 20, 2018 21:56
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Yuns could also beat every one of us up.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:57
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joat mon posted:Busting ACR is the nuclear option and should be used very rarely if only for the strong public policy reasons to maintain a functioning concept of ACR.. The high profile of Cohen's case and the apparent ease with which the ACR material was obtained and put in play by investigators is going to embolden a lot of prosecutors. Just as bad is the example to the general public that 1) Messing with ACR isn't a big deal, and 2) ACR isn't worth poo poo. When joat and I agree, I think it’s fair to say that is conclusive proof we’ve reached the fabled unicorn “correct and reasonable position.” Yuns posted:On the weekdays I sleep in my home office or the guest bedroom because my wife gets super pissed at my alarm going off around 5 am. I only sleep in the master bedroom on the weekends. I can work with that. Your wife clearly doesn’t support your career. Incidentally, I have slept through a mortar strike.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:57
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Mr. Nice! posted:Yuns could also beat every one of us up. He could if he had the time.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:57
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Mr. Nice! posted:Yuns could also beat every one of us up. Not sure about that. I fight dirty.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:58
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Vox Nihili posted:drat dude, you just let AR stomp all over you like a Nazi. Yeah AR told me I was wrong the way my mom does, it's actually freakishly similar. I'm still tempted to buy my mom an account just to post in this thread but again she would be way too good of a poster and I'd be embarrassed.
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Jul 20, 2018 21:58
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we have decades now of the feds requesting secret warrants from kangaroo courts so I guess I can't get worked up about them having other lovely warrants out there. It's just more political now (also funny because of how ridiculous all the hangers on are)
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Jul 20, 2018 21:58
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I got into a fight on twitter (I know, I'm starting to develop a problem) with some guy who believed that the government should make "Nazi Ideology" illegal, and that if the first amendment makes it possible for Nazis to organize and assemble, then its aiding and abetting Nazism and therefore it is broken." The dude was mad because the ACLU was defending some Nazi organization or something that was trying to get a permit. Like people really are starting to think this way, that the rules of law are bad and broken because "bad people are using them to get away with stuff." and it concerns the poo poo out of me. When did the hard left of 2018 become the alt right of the 1980s? And its not like people on the right are getting more defensive of constitutional criminal rights these days - what happens when everyone thinks, "you know what, due process is a real pain in the rear end for my twitter account because I'm not getting the pound of flesh I want right away?"
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Jul 20, 2018 21:59
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Mr. Nice! posted:Yuns could also beat every one of us up. You are underestimating some of us
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Jul 20, 2018 22:01
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joat mon posted:Busting ACR is the nuclear option and should be used very rarely if only for the strong public policy reasons to maintain a functioning concept of ACR.. The high profile of Cohen's case and the apparent ease with which the ACR material was obtained and put in play by investigators is going to embolden a lot of prosecutors. Just as bad is the example to the general public that 1) Messing with ACR isn't a big deal, and 2) ACR isn't worth poo poo. It wasn't a loving fishing expedition. They knew from Trump campaign disclosures and Cohen's LLC filings that $500k from the Trump campaign was transferred to Cohen and then that same amount was sent to Stormy Daniels yet that money wasn't reported as campaign spending. They also had evidence that Cohen was giving advice to people looking to circumvent the NYC taxi medallion regs. That's just the poo poo we know about. There is no way the NY Southern is playing fast and loose with ACR. I don't think anyone here is posting in bad faith, because ACR is insanely important to the profession. But we're approaching concern trolling territory.
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Jul 20, 2018 22:03
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blarzgh posted:I got into a fight on twitter (I know, I'm starting to develop a problem) with some guy who believed that the government should make "Nazi Ideology" illegal, and that if the first amendment makes it possible for Nazis to organize and assemble, then its aiding and abetting Nazism and therefore it is broken." He's 100% right. About the First Amendment being broken in its modern incarnation, about the ACLU being stupid for using Nazis as test cases, and about the merits of banning racial supremacist organizations outright.
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Jul 20, 2018 22:03
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blarzgh posted:I got into a fight on twitter (I know, I'm starting to develop a problem) with some guy who believed that the government should make "Nazi Ideology" illegal, and that if the first amendment makes it possible for Nazis to organize and assemble, then its aiding and abetting Nazism and therefore it is broken." A lovely and underfunded educational system hurts both sides of the spectrum. Ask hard leftists who want to punish Nazis with governmental limitations why they think a government controlled by Trump would operate in good faith and not use the power to target leftists.
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Jul 20, 2018 22:05
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I literally live in Skokie so all the ACLU/Nazi stuff is kind of weird. Ita funny because I guess I'm technically right wing but I support having the cops look the other way if some Holocaust survivors want to shoot some people wearing swastikas , or at least beat them The line is pretty far but I think that's one of the few (only?) times where you can reasonably say this guy's seriously advocating for my extermination, time to end him first
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Jul 20, 2018 22:06
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Mr. Nice! posted:Yuns could also beat every one of us up. I'm not especially large, but I'll bite a motherfucker.
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Jul 20, 2018 22:07
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Vox Nihili posted:He's 100% right. About the First Amendment being broken in its modern incarnation, about the ACLU being stupid for using Nazis as test cases, and about the merits of banning racial supremacist organizations outright. Didn't the ACLU like publicly change their policy about Nazis/white supremacist organizations post-Charlottesville? I seem to remember them saying they were no longer going to do it except in much rarer circumstances.
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Jul 20, 2018 22:08
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