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Captain Monkey posted:I'm honestly not sure how it would matter, since the enemy types stayed the same. So you're rushed by a billion mummies that torment you literally as fast as you can kill them in a differeny hallway now, and this is more fun because...? This. You made Tomb harder. You didn't make it more fun. Do you think people were stairdancing because they enjoyed it? They did that because they had no other options if they weren't a character built for wrecking Tomb.
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Apr 15, 2017 22:26
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*dev turns dial on stove to a larger number* You don't know how this change will play out until you put your hand on it.
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Apr 16, 2017 01:45
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I finally cleared the game. I'm still on 0.17 since I didn't want to change things until I figured out how to wincode:
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Apr 16, 2017 09:08
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Short of cutting tomb entirely this has to be the most wrongheaded way to "fix" stair dancing being required in tomb.
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Apr 16, 2017 09:10
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Strength perpetually increases the damage you do, by about +25% of base damage per 10 points of str above 10, and is a great stat
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Apr 16, 2017 09:11
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Yeah, swapping to the shield of resistance was a good idea since those are seriously good, but stacking strength to chei levels is very desirable.
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Apr 16, 2017 10:13
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IronicDongz posted:Strength perpetually increases the damage you do, by about +25% of base damage per 10 points of str above 10, and is a great stat The change to stat damage scaling has made dex feel pretty weak to me. If you're any kind of melee character you want str, if you're a caster you want int, and if you're going all-in on stealth I guess dex is there for you, but you probably still want some str or int because regular attacks with low strength blow. It's especially notable when you have <10 strength but that damage scaling is important. Dex would be the stat you pick for defenses except str also reduces armour penalties which means more EV. Dex increases shield bonuses but I think strength might also influence that? Base evasion also gets a soft cap at 30 which makes heavy dex investment less valuable. Dex has a bunch of other minor benefits as well but I wouldn't have any problem with leaving my caster or melee characters with 10~ dex for the entire game in favour of more int and str. I kinda wish that when they removed weapon stat weights (a worthwhile change because that was super opaque) they made str provide scaling bonus damage and dex give flat bonus damage. That way dex would be more valuable for smaller, faster weapons while still providing a consistent effect across all weapons. Maybe I'm undervaluing dex but it seems increasingly irrelevant and I haven't really had a game where I felt the pressure of having garbage dex.
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Apr 16, 2017 10:49
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Fortuitous Bumble posted:I finally cleared the game. I'm still on 0.17 since I didn't want to change things Good call man. Feels good to win huh? Darox posted:Maybe I'm undervaluing dex but it seems increasingly irrelevant and I haven't really had a game where I felt the pressure of having garbage dex. You are probably still overvaluing dex even if you aren't taking it. There used to be Str/Dex weighting on weapons which made Dex more attractive for certain builds. But now there's no reason for anyone but stabbers and spellpower-dependent casters to do anything but pump STR. STR reduces EV and spellcasting penalties from armor. So if you buy INT, you get spell success, and if you buy DEX, you get EV. But if you buy STR you get both of those plus unlocking heavier armor sets and a straight up buff to damage. Armor skill also reduces those penalties so it also offers a triple whammy, giving the same benefits to a lesser degree as spell skills and dodging. Dynast recently posted a streak of 19 Naga Wanderer wins , simply by pushing STR, putting on the heaviest armor possible from the very start and NOT TRAINING DODGING AT ALL in most of them. Most of my latest wins are in plate, GDA, or CPA with EV in the 20s and casting level 5-6 spells just by choosing STR from level ups and gear whenever possible. I used to be one of those players that tried to find another way to win. Not anymore. Why bother when the deck is so clearly stacked against you?
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Apr 16, 2017 18:28
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For example, here I am with one of those hybrid chars (a Ba in Scale casting hexes with a Hep hex pet), and here is my Shoals entry: That's 4 merfolk and 2 snapping turtles so six creatures with reaching that hit for 22 and 30 respectively. Add Frances with iron shot and demons, Louise with abyssal, and that wraith means a pack of wraiths with Josephine. Add an avatar so I can't flee and have almost no movement options. Not pictured in that shot are the aquamancer and water elemental pack that are out of sight due to the Hep transference fuckery needed to escape this bullshit. Blew my only scroll of fog. A heavy armor guy doesn't have to dazzle or hex or cloud all those threats, his defenses work against every one of them. So he can simply use stairs dancing and either reposition to fight things one at a time or cleave everything to death. Also his axe doesn't have a 0-3% chance to hit against uniques.
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Apr 16, 2017 18:40
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My least favorite thing about hybrids is figuring out what armor to wear and when (heaviest armor you can cast on is really annoying to determine compared to just "slap on heaviest armor you can find and tab"), and carefully searching for what spells to memorize since amnesia is a limited resource and having flat apts means you might have a dozen or more choices for spells to consider. Like I can see the appeal of these characters but they're so much more trouble to set up than simply doing a blaster caster or tab+heavy armor, which is what I usually gravitate towards. As a caveat I'll sometimes wear heavier stuff on blaster casters but they don't necessarily need it for those builds to work.
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Apr 16, 2017 18:56
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The devs should just take dex out.
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Apr 16, 2017 19:52
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apple posted:My least favorite thing about hybrids is figuring out what armor to wear Troll leather armour with ozocubu's armour. The backbone of the hybrid.
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Apr 16, 2017 20:20
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Araganzar posted:For example, here I am with one of those hybrid chars (a Ba in Scale casting hexes with a Hep hex pet), and here is my Shoals entry: I played Crawl off and on for years and always played a mage and never got more than 2 runes. I finally said gently caress it and started playing heavy armor axe men and lol. I won a 3 rune just to win and then did two 15s.
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Apr 16, 2017 20:25
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I dearly love hybrid merfolk but god drat are they easy to get killed when things go wrong. There's so little slack in their defenses that if they get over matched you can go from healthy to dead in 3 attacks.
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Apr 16, 2017 22:05
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Carcer posted:Do the stairs not put you in the "entrance" areas of the different floors like the old stairs would? Can you potentially land directly in the loot vaults on tomb 3 now? I could actually see this working. Tomb 1 happens normally, then a collapsing shaft takes the player directly to the rune vault. They'd then have to do an Indy run through tomb:3 and tomb:2 to return to the surface. The stairs between 3 and 2 could be similarly 1-way. It'd require a number of changes to make it viable for the player though. For instance, more enemies would start asleep and less would have shouting, torment would be restricted to priests, and the level geometry would have more corners and pillars to allow greater control over LoS.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:18
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Before I fully completed tomb for the first time recently I was under the impression it did work that way, with tomb 1 being a normal level and 2 and 3 being empty, but waking up after you grabbed the rune. It'd be a way to compartmentalize and diversify the threats you run into in the different rooms as you try and make your way back into the dungeon.
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Apr 17, 2017 00:30
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Internet Kraken posted:Troll leather armour with ozocubu's armour. The backbone of the hybrid. It's true, TLA + Ozo's is the One True Hybrid. I've already had one dev PM me and basically say I had a child's understanding of combat and another come into my webtiles game and set me straight about my "shitpost on STR", so I think it's safe to say my conclusions are not widely recognized among the crawlligentsia. I do want to say that the Arc Blade and finding +10 plate in Snake made breaking Shoals doable on my little frog hybrid despite the entrance being camped by four uniques. The Arc Blade with spectral weapon is insane, seems like a lot of arcs. I Killed Frances in 2 hits. Here it is taking out Donald: code: 
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Apr 17, 2017 00:44
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Are you saying that crawl devs read your post here, and rather than write a correction or rebuttal they decided confronting you in a game was the better idea?
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Apr 17, 2017 01:11
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Araganzar posted:I've already had one dev PM me and basically say I had a child's understanding of combat and another come into my webtiles game and set me straight about my "shitpost on STR", so I think it's safe to say my conclusions are not widely recognized among the crawlligentsia. Yikes.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:14
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Araganzar posted:I've already had one dev PM me and basically say I had a child's understanding of combat and another come into my webtiles game and set me straight about my "shitpost on STR", so I think it's safe to say my conclusions are not widely recognized among the crawlligentsia. The gently caress Like this would still be childish even if you had been really indignant and claimed you knew exactly how these mechanics worked in perfect detail. But doing this rather than just trying to be helpful and correct someone operating under mistaken knowledge is ridiculous. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 01:17
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Eat the
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Apr 17, 2017 01:19
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I suppose some devs decided that rather than have us criticize them over subjective game design decisions they'd rather we criticize them for actual irrational stupidity.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:20
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You know what I'm gonna write a post about hybrids and armour just cause I don't want this whole page to be negative. -Troll leather armour is one of the most easily acquired pieces of armour that stays good for the whole game. It can be worn by almost every race , provides a universally useful regen property, and isn't hard to wear. It doesn't provide much defense, but its the lightest armour that can be used with ozocubu's armour. Ozo's is really, really good for hybrids. It gives you a large AC buff with no impact on your spell success rates. If you can combine these two, its a strong enough combo to even go 15 runes with on some builds. I've done it quite often. -For heavier armour, fire/ice dragon armour is pretty much the limit for most characters. You'll get good resists and can always find a set in the mid game. The encumbrance isn't easily overcome but you can cast most mid level spells with the proper investment. Higher level stuff will pose an issue so you probably should only be shooting for that if you have good apts in the area. -Pearl dragon armour is the holy grail of hybrids, but acquiring it is totally unreliable. If you do find a set though, you definitely want to use it. It provides as much protection as plate armour while only encumbering you as much as fire dragon armour. Its insanely good. Also worth mentoning is that mottled dragon armour got changed to rCorr armour in trunk. That could be pretty useful, but I don't know if its too heavy to use with ozo's armour. EDIT: Also yeah its definitely confusing trying to figure out the 'optimal' stat allocation given how minor the impact of a single stat point is. I've heard a good rule of thumb is that you should always have strength that is higher than the ER rating of your armour. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 01:28
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That's actually pretty funny that a dev would go out of their way to trash talk you in the most passive aggressive way possible Allocating towards strength is pretty good on hybrids unless you're trying to cast super high level spells, but I'd caution against claims from anyone towards optimal stat allocation because the math is still obtuse as gently caress, and aside from certain rules of thumb (Pump strength up to your armor's ER rating for maximum benefit, int is good for heavy spellcasting), it's really a matter of preference; I've sloppily allocated stats all the time and I've never gone like "gee whiz I wish I put 1 more point into dex"  Internet Kraken posted:Troll leather armour with ozocubu's armour. The backbone of the hybrid. This is nice and simple yeah, but sometimes you'll just find artifact armor with good properties (or a FDA and you've been too unlucky to get rF elsewhere) so you're playing an even more precarious balancing act. Between int+str, spellcasting + spell school levels, wizardry, etc. you already have a ton of things to keep track of, having ER on top of that just makes me wish I had a spell success calculator handy because it would definitely allow me to plan ahead and play more efficiently (or have spell success rates simplified). apple fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 01:29
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megane posted:Corrosion is okay as a twist, I guess, but ultimately the effect is just "more damage." How is Acid Bolt going to be meaningfully different from Fire Bolt? Acid Bolt, also known as Iron Shot But Yellow, would actually be meaningfully distinct from Fire Bolt in a way that Fire Bolt is NOT meaningfully different from Ice Bolt or Magma Bolt or whatever because it'd actually apply a status effect. Like, imagine: Acid Bolt, the Poison/Conj bolt spell that has less up-front damage than its fire/cold/lightning variants BUT corrodes monsters it touches, such that it's poor as a primary attack spell but more rewarding if you use it to presage casting of the normal bolt spells or going to town with a sword or whatever. The fact that corrosion is so strongly associated with acid damage actually makes acid spells a lot more interesting than most of the attack magic in the game. And, if we're worried about damage spells being too samey, we should make most (all?) fire spells inflict liquid flame, most (all?) cold spells impose a movement slow, Singularity return as a level 9 translocation, etc.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:31
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Uhhh  at devs literally stalking people for posting opinions they disagree with on something awful dot com...But anyway, having venom, as a school, be a sort of more damaging hexes is a really cool flavor, and could work really well for hybrids especially if you included corrosion-like effects. Removing armor, slowing, maybe even a parslysis type of deal, or lowering mr and such would all be amazing on a hybrid.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:52
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Internet Kraken posted:Like this would still be childish even if you had been really indignant and claimed you knew exactly how these mechanics worked in perfect detail. But doing this rather than just trying to be helpful and correct someone operating under mistaken knowledge is ridiculous. I don't want to turn this into a hang the dj session, TBQH both made some pretty good points. For one I was rightfully called on engaging in a bit of hyperbole on the value of STR when I'm really bitching about heavy armor. The devs that post or lurk here are p cool and most likely just saw me online or didn't want to show up here for what appears to be a bit of a shooting gallery.
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Apr 17, 2017 01:56
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Internet Kraken posted:-For heavier armour, fire/ice dragon armour is pretty much the limit for most characters. You'll get good resists and can always find a set in the mid game. The encumbrance isn't easily overcome but you can cast most mid level spells with the proper investment. Higher level stuff will pose an issue so you probably should only be shooting for that if you have good apts in the area. This used to be my rule of thumb - I almost always went FDA because of OOFs. But lately, pushing STR more, I'm having no trouble casting in plate or heavier. My current game I swapped from +4 scale into +10 plate before my first rune and was still casting spec weapon, dazzling spray, regen, confuse etc. FDA/IDA/Scale used to let you get into spells like Phase Shift and Haste in the mid-late game, but without good mid-level hybrid spells they don't offer much over plate anymore.
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Apr 17, 2017 02:03
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Araganzar posted:I've already had one dev PM me and basically say I had a child's understanding of combat and another come into my webtiles game and set me straight about my "shitpost on STR", so I think it's safe to say my conclusions are not widely recognized among the crawlligentsia. Carcer posted:Are you saying that crawl devs read your post here, and rather than write a correction or rebuttal they decided confronting you in a game was the better idea? I'm actually rather skeptical of this tbqh. Most devs have never been shy about rebuttals, and then supposedly contacting you in the one place with no paper trail is rather dramatic.
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Apr 17, 2017 02:43
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Hey devs i play on the lazy-life server and ill throw down about high elves anytime
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Apr 17, 2017 02:55
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Serephina posted:I'm actually rather skeptical of this tbqh. Most devs have never been shy about rebuttals, and then supposedly contacting you in the one place with no paper trail is rather dramatic. God, this seems like such a great way to stir up more drama that it kills me to mention I use the rc setting that logs webtiles chat. Won't be available until I win the game or die, but but I can assure you I'm excellent at dying, so you wont have to wait long. BaTm^Hep if that helps.
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Apr 17, 2017 03:05
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i've got the chatlogs if you doubt it, seriously disturbing stuff imo:code:
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Apr 17, 2017 03:06
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In other crawl news really worth caring about what the hell happened to my ring of Shaolin?code:
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Apr 17, 2017 03:14
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Cmon, are we just not going to do Phrasing anymore?  Betting it's some sort of patch sanitizing any sort of religious localizations. Aaaand it is! quote:Shaolin's theme was pretty big on eastern exoticism, so replace with a Krishna's got the same treatment.
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Apr 17, 2017 03:17
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Araganzar posted:In other crawl news really worth caring about what the hell happened to my ring of Shaolin? Probably the same thing that happened to The Sword of Jihad.
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Apr 17, 2017 03:21
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If you follow the Wu Jiang Clan, they should gift you the Ring of Shaolin at max piety.
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Apr 17, 2017 03:23
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tote up a bags posted:Hey devs i play on the lazy-life server and ill throw down about high elves anytime See me in CBRO to catch hands due to high elves and crown of eternal torment E: and new ogres Also the accuracy calculation code is still making me giggle and it deserves to be on this page, too: quote:Currently, to calculate player accuracy for both 0.19 and 0.20: apple fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 03:28
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Sage Grimm posted:Krishna's got the same treatment. noooo. We lose: Krishna quote posted:“What will you do if Karna is able to kill me?” Arjun asked Krishna. Krishna smiled and replied, “The sun will fall, the earth shatter into a thousand fragments, and fire lose its heat before he kills you. But if he does, it is a sign that the end of the world has come. As for me, I shall kill him with my bare hands. And we get: Zephyr desc posted:This bow was woven from the air itself by Eiolaiphi the air mage as a gift for one of the children of Uskayaw. The bow can be pulled with incredible speed, and it launches swift and true. It is also nearly indestructable, which is fortunate given that the original owner was ripped to pieces by jealous celebrants.
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Apr 17, 2017 05:07
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"Eastern exoticism" is an awful reason for renaming items. Watch out 'Easterns', somebody is going to have a vaguely positive opinion because a +8 ev ring in DCSS is named Shaolin, thank god a dev nipped that in the bud. PC culture is garbage.rchandra posted:noooo. We lose: Yeah the weird bits of flavour from real life are great. The quote on the executioners axe is the most memorable one for me. There should be more items with flavour quotes, not less.
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Apr 17, 2017 05:21
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Removing "Eastern Exoticism" could just as easily be twisted into "Making the game more Eurocentric"
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Apr 17, 2017 05:23
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